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Old 15th May 2013, 21:34   #991
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Default Re: Honda Amaze : Official Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by ACM View Post
The Rev and Speed limits might indeed be required to protect the engine.

20-30 secs over 2000 rpm from standstill is quite a lot actually.

The limit in rpm will not be an issue in climbing hills with rough roads due to a reasonable power band.

The speed limit is good. It will only prevent accidents. The engine must be capable of doing a lot more but the Chassis may not be able to take the speed.
Hilarious. Now baby Honda needs protection, ale le le le. , just kidding.

I am sure if an Alto, Chevrolet Spark and even a Wagon R's chassis can take 140 +, so can this sedan's, I mean, 140 is highly over rated, its like 87 miles/per hour, even a mammoth Safari or Scorpio have higher top speed or for that matter the tall boy Xylo.

20, 30 seconds above 2000 rpm won't do any harm at all as while driving on the highway, you will be doing above 2000 rpm's for hours on long drives.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
What makes you think they won't do that ?

If Toyota can detune D4D engine severly in Innova in India then why not Honda ? Do you think Toyota engine would have earned reputation of being super reliable if these restrictions were not imposed. AFAIK a very small minority of Innvova owners do ECU tunning but suppose if this was done by say 90% of users surely there would have been more wear and tear issues and reputation of engine rebuild around 80K KM just like Hyundai Accent engine.

Honda is a company which sold cars in India with faulty power windows and deaths were reported in 2007 Citi but no hype and hoopla just 2 weeks back an Accord burnt in Delhi and no nano like coverage perhaps that kind of public scrutiny is exclusive for Tatas. In fact no business is run by saints the objective is to maximise profits so I wont give them undue credit in abscence of proof.

Coming back to 2000RPM rev limiting it depends on torque curve and gearing.

Actually in most CR Diesel engines torque curve is of inverted U shape and if you revvv below or beyond the peak torque point you will have difficulty in driving uphill. In Safari the peak torque is at 2500 RPM ( Quoting because this is the vehicle I drive and know about). This is fundamental difference between Diesel and Petrol engines.

I am surprised that you could not drive Swift below 4000RPM in Ladakh was it a Diesel swift ?

In fact there is no need to go to Ladkah you can test it out fairly well in any of the ill designed ramps of parking lots in India. Our architects do ensure that ramp of parking lot is atleast 30-40 degrees with sharp turn to provide this test bed
1.5 litres Vs 100 PS and 200 NM of Torque is not detuned by any standard. Innova yes is detuned as a 2.5 litre engine producing only 103 bhp and 200 Nm does sound like a lot of cc's for this kind of power specially when units which are a litre or less in size, produce more power

Sorry, Detuning is not the only way to extract life out of an engine, A 1.3 DDIS in 105 bhp form is available for sale in the Chrysler Ypsilon and that is a lot of bhp's for the cc but it does just fine.

I know about torque curves, let me give you an example in case of the DDIS.

2000 rpm, max torque is developed, but if I am stuck somewhere, I can't rev it till 2000 rpm and let the clutch go, The rpm's will fall and you will go below the torque band, for that you need to rev higher, so that when you do dump the clutch and the rpm falls, it falls 'IN' the torque band and not below it. Same principle as shifting at higher rpm's during an enthusiastic run, so that when you do shift another gear, you fall in the turbo zone and not below it.

And yes, it was a diesel Swift with my friends + lot of truckers pushing and me alone in the car driving. Theoretical values and on road performance is always different.


Quote:
Originally Posted by amalji View Post
If this is the case, then the Swift Dzire is any day a superior car than the Amaze in terms of performance because I never felt the Dzire chasis incapable of handling 160 kmph.

My personal opinion is that Honda is
  • either hiding something here or
  • They are being too cautious.
+1

Quote:
Originally Posted by agambhandari View Post
I'm happy agreeing to disagree but keep in mind these points as well

There have been several cases, where a user damages a car(not obeying the advisory in the manual), and then publicly defacing the company for the same. I think Honda has found a way to advise you of the capabilities of you car.

Swift and Amaze may have similar torque(max) but the way it is delivered is different. You can check how people complain about the turbo lag in the Swift. In that case, the revs over 2000 rpm may be required.
Yes, but which manufacturer says 'do not drive' above this speed limit in their manual ? 100 PS is too much for a 140 kmph top speed.

Oh Yes, Swift does have turbo lag, but in the situation we were talking about, turbo lag does not come in the picture as we are revving it to high rpms from stand stall to pull ourselves on slopes. IF I was just letting the clutch go from standstill, the Amaze would be far superior because of its turbo spooling at lower rpms as compared to the DDIS, but in places like Rothang or Zozila that we were talking about, that would not be the case as you would stall with just a clutch let off at idle, but you will be even bigger dire situation if you cannot rev above 2000 with the clutch down. Although its a specific situation, but hey we are all motor heads, some of us might head that direction sometime or the other in whatever we have. It would be a damper for sure in those areas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
I really do not see any issue even with the 140kmph speed limit.

While other manufacturers prefer to detune the engine through out like the Etios rated at 67BHP, Honda decided to give a 99BHP tune but with the top speed i.e. high rpm's at WOT (wide open throttle) restricted.

If your going to be doing 140kmph or more then you will be in 5th gear at WOT. This is like extreme worst case for a diesel engine.

I would rather prefer the 99BHP everyday and live with top speed of 140kmph once in a blue moon than have 67BHP everyday and be able to touch 140kmph on rare occasions.
At 140 kmph or even 150 you are not at WOT, maybe a little lesser than 3/4th but not WOT. At 140, we are doing like 3100 rpm, that's like way below the 5200 red line and 4000 rpm@ 76 bhp figure in case of the Swift, in case of Honda too, 5th gear @ 140 would be no where near WOT.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sankar View Post
I would rather have the abilities of my car available for my perusal as per my needs and is not restricted, especially not when the limit is set at such a low.

It doesn't help my confidence in the product because of the speed limited 140kph. I may not do this speed everyday, not even once a week but the thought that "it can if need be" is reassuring. It will always make me wonder why they set a limiter on this car... it will make me think whether they were not confident about the car or the engine?

If 140 limit isn't an issue then Amaze doesn't need 100PS or 200NM to do 140KPH, Honda could have very much detuned the engine to around 90 or 80PS and improved fuel efficiency to 28 or 30kmpl. It will still happily do 140 and thrill the owners with a much better fuel efficiency than the competition.

So why does Honda yell out loud to the media about 1.5liter 100PS 200NM and 25kpl, when the top speed is only around that of a Maruti 800? Won't this car sell if Honda doesn't tom tom about 100PS engine as a one-upmanship over its competitors? Top speed limit isn't mentioned in the ads. The uninitiated customer will think that since this car has a stonker of an engine it will show a clean pair of heels to another competing Diesel/Petrol car but only to be surprised by a lesser powered car on the 4 lane.

If customers aren't bothered by the speed limit it will do a lot better if Honda detunes the engine and increases fuel efficiency! it certainly doesn't need 100PS to do 140kph.

Hope this engine delivers what i feel it should deliver when it makes it appearance in the new City with a higher state of tune!


Adios! Exiting this thread as i'm no longer a prospective customer.
+1, I went to the Honda showroom with the intention of buying the Amaze as my future car, exited with a cross mark over the car.



Quote:
Originally Posted by agambhandari View Post

Overtaking a cheaper car is no parameter for performance. Last week on the NH1, my Dad was driving the Chevy Spark and overtook a 520d!!
Also, if a guy in an Alto or 800 is mad enough to go to 140 Kmph in his car, he clearly doesn't know the capabilities of the car and its crash worthiness. Probably another reason why Honda chose this limit?
140 is highly over rated my friend, I know so many people around driving little cars, big cars, SUV's, MUV's do 140's once in a while like it was a morning cup of tea. I have done it a million times and its not even exciting awymore. A 140 limit is a put off and that will be the case for the probable customer too as the news spreads.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
So BMW that makes cars with V8 engines putting out 400-500bhp and sells them for close 50lakhs to crores must be the biggest cheats of all since they are speed limited to 250kmph but have V8 monsters that put out 500bhp.

Why not bring out a V6 with 250BHP that will hit 250kmph and give better FE. Why even offer a V8 with 400-500bhp?

Although I agree with you on the limiter being a spoilt sport, I do not agree that the manufacturer is cheating anybody. Do you see any car maker putting in the brochure what their car does not have vs competition?

Does Maruti mention that the Swift L/V has weak brakes in their brochure? Does Ford mention that the car may sometimes stall even in 5th gear?
That is government regulation baba, not the company's wish, the V6's and V8's are not mileage based cars, they are performance oriented and hence getting to 250 the fastest and having the best 0 to 100 figure is what they are all about and not FE. Comparing that with the Amaze's limited 140 kmph is like comparing apples and oranges.

The Swift having weak brakes is a just a test drive away with a mention in the brochure of the things the L and V variants lack as compared to the Z variant, take a test drive of V and Z variants and you ll know yourself what you are comfortable with, in which test drive will you drive the Amaze at 140 to know that its limited or expect such a thing in a vehicle of these many horses ? That would be a wounder if I did find out later about this technicality and had the intention of having some fun with it on the highway once in a while.

Quote:
Originally Posted by i74js View Post
Lets go a little OT on this top speed issue. Take it in a positive sense. In case of a police chase, it will be possible to catch your Amaze from a car thief and you might get your car back easily !
Haha, the Police Bolero's will now be able to catch something on Indian roads atleast

Last edited by humyum : 15th May 2013 at 21:37.
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Old 15th May 2013, 21:53   #992
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Default Re: Honda Amaze : Official Review

Did some one on this forum actually hit the 140 limit on the diesel? As far as i know, the 140 kmph limit is only for the petrol. I read the last few pages from 63 till here, and i did not find an authentic source (a magazine or a teambhp'ian) claiming to have hit limit on 140kmph on a diesel.
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Old 15th May 2013, 22:10   #993
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Default Re: Honda Amaze : Official Review

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Originally Posted by humyum View Post
Hilarious. Now baby Honda needs protection, ale le le le. , just kidding.

I am sure if an Alto, Chevrolet Spark and even a Wagon R's chassis can take 140 +, so can this sedan's, I mean, 140 is highly over rated, its like 87 miles/per hour, even a mammoth Safari or Scorpio have higher top speed or for that matter the tall boy Xylo.

20, 30 seconds above 2000 rpm won't do any harm at all as while driving on the highway, you will be doing above 2000 rpm's for hours on long drives.
Actually when I read the my quote again I realized that I wrote it completely wrong. I Meant to write that that the chassis may be able to take the load but the engine may not be able to since this is a new attempt at a diesel engine.
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Old 16th May 2013, 09:33   #994
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Default Re: Honda Amaze : Official Review

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Originally Posted by govigov View Post
Did some one on this forum actually hit the 140 limit on the diesel?
The power output is fine. So it is only a matter of gearing. Most cars have a higher power output on the petrol than the diesel, and (petrols) mostly hit the top speed in the fourth (of five) gear.
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Old 16th May 2013, 09:59   #995
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The topspeed is actually limited in both variants of Amaze and also in case of Brio.
I dont think for better engine life Honda has restricted the topspeed as the petrol ivtec engine in Jazz didnt have any such cut off.
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Old 16th May 2013, 10:18   #996
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Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
The power output is fine. So it is only a matter of gearing.
Agreed, but is it not the final product (speed) that is affected. And if it was only about gearing, why should they restrict revving above 2000 rpm at standstill? Are they not confident in revving the engine high? Or have they not tested enough? Just my random thoughts.
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Old 16th May 2013, 10:59   #997
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Moderator Note : Team-BHP adopts a STRICT stand against posts on illegally high speeds / over-speeding. Please refrain from posting ANY and ALL content on silly speeds.
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Old 16th May 2013, 11:34   #998
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Update on my Amaze EXMT Idtec booking : Got a call from Sundaram Honda last week that my vehicle was dispatched from factory on May 2nd and asked me to complete the formalities for registration & delivery.I had booked the car on 15th April.Yesterday finished all formalities and the registration will be done on friday.Planning to take delivery on Monday being an auspicious day.Will post an initial ownership report.

note: Sundaram Honda customer support was excellent and got a warm reception every time I visited them and thanks to the followup by Ms.Revathi SA Sundaram Honda!. They even offered valet parking for my Swift VDI.

Thanks Teambhp for helping me in solving many issues with my Swift VDI ,a significant issue being the brake booster replacement.
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Old 16th May 2013, 14:33   #999
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Originally Posted by satishkc View Post
Update on my Amaze EXMT Idtec booking : Got a call from Sundaram Honda last week that my vehicle was dispatched from factory on May 2nd and asked me to complete the formalities for registration & delivery.I had booked the car on 15th April.Yesterday finished all formalities and the registration will be done on friday.Planning to take delivery on Monday being an auspicious day.Will post an initial ownership report.

note: Sundaram Honda customer support was excellent and got a warm reception every time I visited them and thanks to the followup by Ms.Revathi SA Sundaram Honda!. They even offered valet parking for my Swift VDI.

Thanks Teambhp for helping me in solving many issues with my Swift VDI ,a significant issue being the brake booster replacement.

Thats great. Really looking forward to hear your ownership experience.
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Old 16th May 2013, 16:32   #1000
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Thats great. Really looking forward to hear your ownership experience.
+1

To be frank though I mostly glimpse through the lines on Amaze, did not get much time to post any update.

We have booked for the VX (top end) Pearl Red model on April 10th or so from Peninsular Honda Calicut. Delivery expected May End.

It's been plethora of issues with respect to 1.) Peninsular Honda Dealership closure in Calicut - maybe Apco will take over in future as I heard from them.
2. So Delivery will be probably from Cochin Dealership of Peninsular. Pretty big headache which adds to confusion whether to go or not for Amaze.


The story goes like this. I had been a die hard fan of Honda, (still I am) so once we had the Innova shown the way wanted to take a entry level sedan (Dad is a total Diesel Head, me pterol) had the choices of Dzire (not that good looking esp with boot cut and spacious) Etios (not the updated version - dated and shoddy interiors) to name a few. And Peninsular Honda, Calicut is very familiar since we took the City ZX and regular service is done there.

Here comes the trump card Amaze to make my Dad fall for it (25.8 kmpl) and yeah he has went ahead and booked the top end diesel. All positive till the time I had read the full review by GTO. Wonderfully done by GTO.

Now the deal breaker pointers from the first review till date are :

1. NVH. I had a chance to start the diesel engine and just do revving. It sounded pretty noisy for me while revving.
2. The 140 speed limit really is. Why should someone (renowned for engines- who makes the best engine - Honda is called Engineering Company than a car company) limit my speed to any figure. Whether it is 100 or 160 kmph, that shows you just can't toy with this engine and has to nurtured for ever. If it's for a initial say 1000 km or so I can agree the run-in period. I am not sure I heard this in GTO review, but for me its a deal breaker. Let's wait for authenticity. Not that I regularly do 140 kmph, but in case I need it while overtaking say, i know i will be disappointed.
3. Tad too boring and not upmarket Dashboard for a Entry level sedan from Honda ( should know car worth 9.5 lakh onroad in bangalore and say 8.85 in Calicut)
4. Dealership issue (not for everyone)
5. Unknown and yet to prove engine ( not that I don't believe in Honda, after all there is first to everything so why take chance if time is there and not in hurry)
6. Coming from point 5, I am sure Honda for sure will come up with a updated version with all issue solved, say in less than a year seeing their updates on proven City. Why should I lose sleep now nosediving to it than wait even if I end up paying a little more cents. Makes sense right.
7. Have overheard from one of the SA that actual mileage is about 21kmpl for diesel as per the current owners (though very minimal are on road). Should improve I believe as one goes with City the same thing happened.
8. With diesel -petrol resurrection current and future in mind, why should I limit to a improper sedan if I can stretch a little bit and be in the ANHC bracket and enjoy the proven full sedan with no limits ( no fun intended, you know what I mean)

These are purely personal but felt I should bring them here with a open mind. Really myself and father are caught in two minds.

regards
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Old 16th May 2013, 18:07   #1001
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I had a short test drive of the Diesel Amaze.

The car is noisy but very responsive.
In fact I found it too responsive.

The way she literally lurches forward when letting go the clutch was a little scary.

Would this not cause premature wearing out of the brakes if you are in heavy traffic situations?
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Old 17th May 2013, 20:40   #1002
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Attaching pics of our VX diesel. If you can ignore the dashboard and the dealer experience , I think Honda definitely has a winner here. We have a Dezire VDi also in the family having done about 13.3k kms... I personally feel the first impressions of the Amaze have been great as a city car. The maruti has been awesome on the highways to drive , will know soon when we take this Honda to mangalore.

What I didn't like ( other than the dashboard )

1- RPMs were higher than idle even after 20 mins of city driving. As a result , I was either braking continuously or using the clutch.
2- FE was 11.2 kpl , the max I saw once was 15 kpl
3- Information display doesn't have DTE or Time on it.
4 - Though my mother kept on asking if I had not adjusted my driving seat properly because of the extra legroom she had in the rear ( like we see in the advertisements ) , like all Honda cars here in india , ingress and egress is a pain for back seat passengers because of the low bench

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Old 17th May 2013, 21:10   #1003
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Just compared the rear seats of my amaze and verna. Amaze is much more comfortable with more leg space. Also the rear bench angle of amaze is better than verna. Difficult to ascertain which is sub 4 metre once you are in the back seat.

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Old 17th May 2013, 21:45   #1004
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After waiting (45 days since 1st April) for my Carnelian Red Pearl SMT PETROL, now my dealer "Crystal Honda -Bavdhan Pune" tells me that we are not sure when the Red will be available , it could take 1-2 months since there is no production of petrol models with the Red color. There are a lot of questions which come to mind which i would like to share with you
1) Is Honda worried about Amaze eating into the CITY space and hence not making much petrol cars. Cmon Honda, though the City is in a totally different league altogether if people find the Amaxe SMT at 6.9lks on road a value for money car - IT IS NOT OUR FAULT. If this was the fear,the Petrol models should not have been launched.
2) What is so special about the Carnelian Red Pearl that Honda finds it difficult to give it in Petrol but is available in the TOP variants. Is there more profit in the TOP variants or is the RED too premium to be given for a 7 lacs CAR. It should not have been shown in the AMAZE and kept exclusively for the CITY or the Top diesel Amaze
3) Though my daily running is justified for Petrol, I am forced to convert my booking for the Diesel model for my " special" color, But for the same the dealer is sweetly telling me to wait for a month. AM I DOING THE RIGHT THING ??
4) Here many have discussed and put forth their opinions about more Noise for the diesel Engine. Is there Vibration in the Cabin due to the same since my kids are not comfortable in diesel cars like Innova(last row) and Skoda(Nausea/Vomitting). Will the Amaze Diesel be a comfort ride or a Nauseating one for them? Can someone with similar problems guide me on this.But Surprisingly they were comfortable in the MAnza.
My friend who had booked a White diesel AMAZE SMT along with me on the same day had got a vehicle on 6th may but he refused and changed colour to Silver and that vehicle too has come and is ready to be delivered on Monday. Poor me got stuck with the wrong colour(RED) and the Wrong technology(Petrol) i suppose . IF I had stuck to the Diesel from the beginning,by today i would have been replying to my pics and posts on this forum in the Ownership thread.
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Old 18th May 2013, 14:08   #1005
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So it's not just Bangalore Honda dealers who re acting pricey. We had booked on 9th April and were promised a delivery in the first week of May

First week of May passes by and I don't hear from anyone at Dakshin Honda. Like most things here , a threat of cancelling the booking usually does the trick.

They gave us the car yesterday.

Mod Note: Please quote ONLY the relevant bits of a post. Quoting a full, long post inconveniences our mobile reader
s.

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