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Old 10th April 2013, 12:04   #46
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Default Re: Mahindra Reva e2o : Official Review

Excellent review. But the govt cannot afford to kill the passenger car segment which is fossil fuel driven.
Instead of doing anything concrete about environment and pollution, the govt is happy doing lip service instead of promoting products like these.
Both the State and Central govt make billions off taxes imposed on petrol and diesel, so why kill it ?
Again, billion dollar auto industry is not going to simply lie low and let govt promote something which will kill its bread n butter. It all about greasing the correct hands.
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Old 10th April 2013, 12:13   #47
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Default Re: Mahindra Reva e2o : Official Review

Another way to look at it is the Car2Home, which Rehaan had mentioned. I remember the same concept being extremely successful with Nissan Leaf. The idea would be to treat the car battery as an reserve source of power. You charge it when the supply is there and in case of power cuts use from it. This would surely require infrastructure support but if implemented the benefits are very practical.

Additionally, if the government supports and even mandates the generation of alternate source of energy from each residential complex/ home (as in few European countries), the solar panel can be constructed as part of the scheme and electricity can be fed into the grid! I know the electricity boards in Germany offering a higher rate per unit generated at home than what you are charged at when you consume from them. In the end, this actually reduces your electricity bill and also strengthens the overall grid.

I know this is not realistic in the current scenario and needs considerable support from the government, but the possibility always exists. To use it or discard it is what needs to be seen.

This is what truly frustrated me! Here you have a Indian company, bringing truly marvelous technology, which not only is clean but has potential to contribute as well and the government is not ready to provide any kind of support to them! Really sad

Quote:
Originally Posted by rohit0103 View Post
Excellent review. But the govt cannot afford to kill the passenger car segment which is fossil fuel driven.
Instead of doing anything concrete about environment and pollution, the govt is happy doing lip service instead of promoting products like these.
Both the State and Central govt make billions off taxes imposed on petrol and diesel, so why kill it ?
Again, billion dollar auto industry is not going to simply lie low and let govt promote something which will kill its bread n butter. It all about greasing the correct hands.
Nobody is asking them to kill the conventional car market. At least introduce and push these EVs in the metros as an alternate to taxi/ public transport whenever possible. For example, at train stations as pre-paid taxis. You can easily prioritize them if the count of passenger is 1/2.

Last edited by MotoNanu : 10th April 2013 at 12:17.
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Old 10th April 2013, 12:29   #48
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Default Re: Mahindra Reva e2o : Official Review

Excellent review Rahan & Parrys. I would say it has done justice to India's Electric car Bible I would say.

No doubt Mahindra has done a fantastic job is transforming from iReva to e2o. It looks awesome and fit and finish as improved drastically. And so as equipment level. Projectors display, in dash Multimedia-GPS unit, beautiful seats & steering and what not.

Cost of ownership table is very very useful guys. Mahindra is clear with their intention of targeting premium segment city commuters and foreign market. I remember my employer promoted Reva earlier by providing free charging units and reserved parking space at office as part of the green initiatives. Our Government should also promote Electric vehicles by tax excemptions or other perks so that they become more affordable to mid segment buyers.
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Old 10th April 2013, 18:17   #49
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Default Re: Mahindra Reva e2o : Official Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpower View Post
Alloys look really familiar (Neo?). Is the LRR tire specially made for the E20 or is it available in the market for all cars?
Yes I think they are the Neo 'Dozen'. Named after the 12 spokes!

I doubt the tyres would be made specifically for the e2o. A quick google shows they've been around for a while...

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Originally Posted by Mpower View Post
In fact the E20 is so much bigger than the Reva that is makes a case for both to co-exist.
Interesting point! Though i wonder if they didn't go with this for the following possible reasons : lack of production capacity, safety regulations changing overseas, Reva-i no longer cutting it when compared to other electric competition. The earlier version is a fairly crude little mobile after all.

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Originally Posted by Mpower View Post
I'm curious to see exactly how these stations look and how painless they are to use.
I can't seem to find the picture anymore! But here's what I'm guessing is a fancier prototype:
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Originally Posted by Mpower View Post
Are there any facilities to help you relax for those 5 hours while your car is charging?
Like SS-Traveller said, i think Mahindra boosted the number of charge stations by simply making plugpoints within a little Mahindra Reva weather-sealed box available at all their dealerships and workshops. After this, i think they will concentrate on stations at points of interest.

I see the current dealership/workshop charging points as being an alternative to charging whilst you're at work. Not a place you'd just swing by.

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Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
Link seems to be working fine
Working today, thanks.

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Originally Posted by rock75 View Post
What is the weight? I think it is 834 kgs while Tata nano weighs around 600 kg.
Compared in the spread sheet. The e2o battery itself should be 100-200 kgs.

There's no way the E-Nano is coming in @ 3 lakhs! Don't forget that batteries are expensive.

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Originally Posted by deetjohn View Post
A few questions:
-Why couldn't Mahindra adopt a single wiper for the windscreen. Won't it help save the juice?
Even though this is a dual wiper, it still uses only 1 motor with a linkage connecting the two. The Nano used one wiper to save costs.

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Originally Posted by deetjohn View Post
-And why can't our regular hatchbacks use ABS-plastic for doors and fenders? And why can't body colour be infused into the plastic for the bumpers?
I'm not sure. I think as you scale up volumes, pressed steel might make more financial sense -- and the relatively minor weight saving wouldn't really matter to them as much as it would matter to the e2o. Plus the e2o is trying to be 'green'.

Remember when the shiny chromed bumpers of Fiats and Ambassadors went out of style? Thats when bumpers were replaced with other plastic materials. The reason probably had more to do with legislation / pedestrian safety than anything else though. Modern car bumpers are designed to withstand bumps of 5-15 km/h too. Why not ABS? I'm guessing price - since a painted PU bumper would probably still be cheaper than a colour infused ABS one.

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Originally Posted by Steeroid View Post
Power transmission losses (from generation to distribution) in India are 24% ON AN AVERAGE. So you get about 75% of the generated power at your city's distribution point (sub-stations?). How much more is lost until it reaches the end user appliance is anybody's guess.
If you're talking about transmission losses for electric power from the power station to our home, don't forget to also compare that to the 'transmission losses' of fossil fuels - which often gets forgotten in this equation.

This would start at the time they drill for petroleum, then transport it across continents in an oil-burning ship, refine it, and then transport it by an oil-burning truck to the gas station.

Comparing the real-world impact of electric vs gasoline requires re-tracing a long chain of fractions and losses in each case. I'm nowhere near equipped to do it, and its even questionable how far back we should trace it.

Like you said, electric raises a whole new set of questions. But at the same time i think that it is a more universal and efficient mechanism with which to do work (independent of the supply). And the newer means of producing the electricity, transferring it and storing it will continually be improved in the near future - so that should take care of the other end of the equation.

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Originally Posted by Steeroid View Post
Then of course you have the conversion of that power into DC on the car's battery, storage losses, et al.
The e2o website says it charges at 90% efficiency. (Tesla claims 85-90% for the S).

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Old 10th April 2013, 19:37   #50
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Default Re: Mahindra Reva e2o : Official Review

The BEST review on TBHP ever! Two thumbs up Rehaan. What's more encouraging to see is all the serious responses in following pages. The E2O is still ahead of its time however I am sure there will be a good number of 'early adopters' including self once subsidies come into play. I have already seen 2 on Bangalore roads, which is fairly good considering the 3x premium over petrol alternative that comes closest-the Nano!

For all of you who own a second car for a city runabout, go ahead and 'e-grade' your drive today. The excel comparison of 5 year running cost was an eye opener. If a car is likely to be under utilized by wife/parents etc, it makes real sense to get one with least maintenance headache and moving parts.
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Old 10th April 2013, 20:21   #51
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Rehaan, thank you so much for this very detailed, thorough and crisp review. These reviews seem to be getting better and better by the day and honestly make me feel very proud of being part of such a wonderful community

I'm very excited for this tiny Reva, not so much for the car itself, but for it being the first in the country to offer a 'real' car within the affordability of a lot of people. Although not everyone that can afford it may want to buy it, we have to appreciate Mahindra's effort that it has put into this and the end result that hasn't been bad.

Like has been pointed out, electricity losses combined with the energy needed to ship the coal and water supply for thermal plants would more than make up for combustion engine losses. However, what makes me excited about this is the simplicity of the vehicle and the fact that it has a lot fewer moving parts and requires much less maintenance (no more dirty carbon to deal with!). The reliability of the motor is unknown right now. Does Mahindra offer a guarantee on its motor?

I just hope more manufacturers follow suit and work on their EVs and EBs. I'd go out and buy an electric motorcycle if there was one in the market from a known brand. How I dream of not having to visit the petrol station, of not having oil changes or blocked carbs or dirty air filters or worn out spark plugs or clutch plates and not having a tail pipe!(long list).

Last edited by hellmet : 10th April 2013 at 20:35.
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Old 10th April 2013, 20:23   #52
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Default Re: Mahindra Reva e2o : Official Review

This is one review I was waiting eagerly for. Many thanks. Indeed I must say Mahindra has almost walked the Hindi proverb, "der aaye durust aaye", to the T. Well almost I said because the E2O really seems to have ticked off most of the boxes for those owners who are looking for a replacement hatch with lower running costs. Mahindra did take an awful amount of time to launch this but as I said earlier, better late than never. The cost does seem to be a major obstruction towards adoption in the domestic market along with the lack of 4 doors but it seems Mahindra was biding its time to reach the quality levels which would make this a very strong competitor in Europe. I believe the attention to detail and the high quality interiors is proof of that. I am impressed with not only its much improved looks but also its overall performance figures as reported.

The biggest peeve would be this huge price upfront one has to pay. I wish our government could subsidize some part of that cost for more mass market adoption. Opponents of all kinds of subsidies, please look at it this way. A subsidy in this area causes higher adoption of this technology resulting in more sales which enables manufacturers to spend more money on research and thereby reducing the overall cost through better products, thereby reducing the need for subsidies as prices fall. That initial investment in subsidy in these technologies will pay off by reducing subsidies on fossil fuels that the government has to provide currently. Moreover I would suggest that all government departments who use cars to ferry the bureaucrats within the city in Ambys and other cars, switch to the E2O but I guess this would be too much wishful thinking . However a normal Amby in the city performs more or less the same as the E2O, wait the E2O might be better. But seriously this is one strong car in contention now for a hatch replacement as a city runabout both in the domestic and the overseas market and if the electric Verito sees the light of day (which I believe it should given that it can pack more batteries in the larger size), Mahindra is really setting trends in India. Hats off Mr. Mahindra.
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Old 10th April 2013, 20:28   #53
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A car certainly worth deep thought and consideration then, would you say?

We may go back to being a two car household and the e20 seems like the perfect bet to me...

Last edited by shankar.balan : 10th April 2013 at 20:29.
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Old 11th April 2013, 00:44   #54
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Default Re: Mahindra Reva e2o : Official Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by u_chill View Post
The E2O is still ahead of its time however I am sure there will be a good number of 'early adopters' including self once subsidies come into play.
Thanks u_chill. Actually adoption of technology was something i wanted to touch upon, but the review was too long already.

There's the law of Diffusion of Innovations:

It basically explains how new innovations usually get picked up by the market and become common items / successes.

Here you can see the rate and volume at which an innovation / new tech catches on, starting with the innovators, then the early adopters (which is where the e2o is now), followed by the majority...
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Here's the average percentage break-up of where the volumes come from. Only 16% of potential sales will come from innovators and early adopters.
The real adoption comes from the early and late majority. However, its essential for a technology to reach that tipping point and 'cross the chasm' (indicated in the graphic) for it to be a mass market success:
Mahindra Reva e2o : Official Review-acceleratingdiffusionofinnovationmaloneys16rule.jpg
Source

Maloney’s 16% Rule : once you have reached 16% adoption of any innovation, you must change your messaging and media strategy from one based on scarcity, to one based on social proof, in order to accelerate through the chasm to the tipping point.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hellmet View Post
The reliability of the motor is unknown right now. Does Mahindra offer a guarantee on its motor?
They still have to get back to us on the overall warranty of the car. I *think* it might be 3 years / 100,000 kms. (Battery is 3 yrs / 60,000 kms).

I don't know details of the motor - but chances are its being used in several other applications / vehicles already. Electric brush-less motors are pretty rugged pieces of equipment.


Quote:
Originally Posted by samarjitdhar View Post
A subsidy in this area causes higher adoption of this technology resulting in more sales which enables manufacturers to spend more money on research and thereby reducing the overall cost through better products, thereby reducing the need for subsidies as prices fall.
Nicely said. Though unfortunately our Government has to share the foresight too.

cya
R

Last edited by Rehaan : 11th April 2013 at 00:46.
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Old 11th April 2013, 01:39   #55
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Default Re: Mahindra Reva e2o : Official Review

Quote:
There's the law of Diffusion of Innovations
Hi Rehan,

Firstly, good review for the e2o and nice pictures to go with it!

The law of Diffusion of Innovations slides had raked my memories of the yesteryears and I wanted to thank you for it. Still holds true
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Old 11th April 2013, 05:29   #56
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Question 1: is such a huge grill required for a car that does not have an internal combustion engine? Can it be made more aerodynamic? Can the heat from the AC intercooler be dissipated in some other way?

Question 2: what is the hindrance in implementing a solar panel for AC and audio / entertainment unit ? ala nissan leaf?
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Old 11th April 2013, 06:18   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by govigov View Post
Question 1: is such a huge grill required for a car that does not have an internal combustion engine? Can it be made more aerodynamic? Can the heat from the AC intercooler be dissipated in some other way?

Question 2: what is the hindrance in implementing a solar panel for AC and audio / entertainment unit ? ala nissan leaf?
I think the huge grille is in keeping with Mahindra Design philosophy, for the family look. Frankly the big grille looks ghastly on the e20 and on those horrid little three wheeler baby trucks of Mahindra as well. By contrast the Tata Magic is really very cute...

I would also, like you, greatly appreciate the solar energy converter panel, which could provide regenerative energy to re charge the battery whilst on the move as well aspower the AC and music etc. However, this technology must be quite expensive and might chuck the pricing of this car well into the upper stratosphere, which is probably why they are not offering it...

I do know that these Li Ion batteries are devilish expensive vis a vis the standard ones, even though they do certainly have a longer life etc...

All this technology does one thing. It makes you feel good about efficiency, emissions, saving the planet and a host of other stuff. That is, till you start going back up the value chain and investigating the manufacturing processes behind each of the car's parts and batteries etc. only then will one realize how eco friendly these alternate fuel powered cars are!
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Old 11th April 2013, 15:39   #58
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Originally Posted by govigov View Post
Question 1: is such a huge grill required for a car that does not have an internal combustion engine?
Well the AC condenser is fairly large, though like Shankar.balan said, styling probably played a part in it too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by govigov View Post
Can it be made more aerodynamic? Can the heat from the AC intercooler be dissipated in some other way?
Sure it could. The Tesla S has an amazing CoD for a large sedan simply because it doesn't have an open front grille!

However, in the case of the e2o - aerodynamics count for little, given its low running speeds.

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Originally Posted by govigov View Post
Question 2: what is the hindrance in implementing a solar panel for AC and audio / entertainment unit ? ala nissan leaf?
Large cost & minor value add.

A roof-top solar panel would barely improve the range. In cars like the Frisker Karma, it is/was a $5,000 option. And it would save you roughly $10 a year.

Pretty much the only useful advantage of this solar panel is that it helps run a fan in the interior when the car is parked in the sun. Though this could really be done with the battery as well.

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Old 11th April 2013, 18:05   #59
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Maybe OT but an interesting read on whether electric cars are really environmentally friendly.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22001356

Few notes :
Quote:
One of the findings is that the energy intensive manufacturing of EVs mean that some cars make almost double the impact on global warming as conventional cars. This is mostly because of the raw materials and energy needed to build the lithium-ion batteries.
However, the moment a new EV hits the road, the environmental picture starts to improve.
Quote:
the global warming impact of an EV car driven in the UK is about 10% better over its life cycle than that of a car with an internal combustion engine.
Quote:
There have been rather a high number of misrepresentations from all sides in this debate. There is no such thing as a zero-emission anything, whether a zero-emission vehicle or a zero-emission building.

"Everything has emissions, but sometimes they are just further away from the user."
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Old 11th April 2013, 19:15   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shankar.balan View Post
I think the huge grille is in keeping with Mahindra Design philosophy, for the family look. Frankly the big grille looks ghastly on the e20 and on those horrid little three wheeler baby trucks of Mahindra as well. By contrast the Tata Magic is really very cute...
I think the design concept (DC designed) was ready even before Mahindra took over. Mahindra would have loved to put a toothy grill (I wonder why thy did not do that change before launching). Huge grill is really because of the fascination the DC Design has for massive/aggressive grills.
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