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Old 16th May 2013, 14:16   #616
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Default Re: Volkswagen Polo 1.2L GT TSI : Official Review

The rear knee room is indeed tight, as attested by my wife during our test drive yesterday. Just wondering: why can't the rear seat be moved back as an after market modification? To my simple mind it seems a simple job: modify the underlying frame on the chassis holding the seat, push it back 3 to 4", secure it, cut the parcel tray, finished! Its obviously not such a simple job, otherwise it would have been done by lots of people without complaining about cramped space at the back. I want to understand the constrains.
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Old 16th May 2013, 14:37   #617
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Default Re: Volkswagen Polo 1.2L GT TSI : Official Review

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Originally Posted by fiat_tarun View Post
All in all a good car, but it's priced too high to be a success. ...
+1
This car will go the way of the original Palio 1.6 - Drool worthy, but not too many will take her home.
If VW wants to see some redeeming numbers for the TSI, it should bring in a base manual version without airbags and ESP.

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Old 17th May 2013, 03:07   #618
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Originally Posted by Guite View Post
why can't the rear seat be moved back as an after market modification? To my simple mind it seems a simple job: modify the underlying frame on the chassis holding the seat, push it back 3 to 4", secure it, cut the parcel tray, finished! I want to understand the constrains.
Hi,
IMHO, however simple it seems, it is not at all easy to achieve. Why do you think VW engineers didn't do it themselves . I guess that's what Suzuki engineers achieved with the New swift, compromise on the boot space, get couple of inches of rear legroom.
The constraints, yes, to list it, there is always these obtrusive rear wheel arches to deal with. And also like most cars, polo has its fuel tanks underneath the rear seat, which means moving the frame(assuming that we can) would leave these exposed by say few inches. we are not really gaining anything then, right? The problem is more than skin deep, of course there are those mavericks back in Honda, Japan who deal with these the best! Jazz is one such product, where to readjust the space at the back and to achieve those magic seat as they call them, they moved the fuel tank under the front seat!

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Originally Posted by WindRide View Post
+1
Drool worthy, but not too many will take her home.
If VW wants to see some redeeming numbers for the TSI, it should bring in a base manual version without airbags and ESP.
Please WindRide,
lets not begin another debate over why neglecting safety features is good for the company. We all wish how they can offer a manual option for the TSI, but us being part of a responsible community like Team-BHP shouldn't be undermining manufacturers giving airbags or encouraging them to skip it. No offence meant to you, sir.

P.S.: Remember, we have to behave, manufacturers are watching us!!

Cheers,
D.

Last edited by delta5 : 17th May 2013 at 03:16. Reason: Added more info.
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Old 17th May 2013, 09:08   #619
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Default Re: Volkswagen Polo 1.2L GT TSI : Official Review

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Hi,
IMHO, however simple it seems, it is not at all easy to achieve. Why do you think VW engineers didn't do it themselves . I guess that's what Suzuki engineers achieved with the New swift, compromise on the boot space, get couple of inches of rear legroom.
The constraints, yes, to list it, there is always these obtrusive rear wheel arches to deal with. And also like most cars, polo has its fuel tanks underneath the rear seat, which means moving the frame(assuming that we can) would leave these exposed by say few inches. we are not really gaining anything then, right?
Your points are spot on. Let me also add another point into this list and that is most important one - Crumple zone and safety.

When I see the rear seat of the Swift, I find it close to the rear hatch door which is not safe IMO. In case of a rear end, there is risk of fatality for rear occupants. Whereas in the Polo, there is sedan like (in some cases, more than some popular CS sedans) space which also adds into sufficient crumple zone that it with additional sturdy built over Swift and many other cars in the segment.

If the seat is pushed backward then seatbelt position will also be needed to alter which is also not an easy task.

I have seen a badly damaged Polo which was crushed between two vehicles. Bonnet and boot were crumpled in that case. When I went near the car started looking into the cabin I observed there wasn't any sign of any major damage, nor at front neither at rear seat.

Now for the rear leg space, there is Vento. They literally increased the wheelbase to increase the leg room and Vento has really decent leg room compared to the Polo. This is how they workout.


Quote:
lets not begin another debate over why neglecting safety features is good for the company. We all wish how they can offer a manual option for the TSI, but us being part of a responsible community like Team-BHP shouldn't be undermining manufacturers giving airbags or encouraging them to skip it.

P.S.: Remember, we have to behave, manufacturers are watching us!!
Yeah, I would also say that please VW, don't listen each and every advice given here, don't compromise on safety front just because some people want some more space. This is a good, safe and sturdy hatchback and let it be a good, safe and sturdy one.

Last edited by tbppjpr : 17th May 2013 at 09:10.
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Old 17th May 2013, 09:19   #620
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Originally Posted by tbppjpr View Post
Your points are spot on. Let me also add another point into this list and that is most important one - Crumple zone and safety.

When I see the rear seat of the Swift, I find it close to the rear hatch door which is not safe IMO. In case of a rear end, there is risk of fatality for rear occupants. Whereas in the Polo, there is sedan like (in some cases, more than some popular CS sedans) space which also adds into sufficient crumple zone that it with additional sturdy built over Swift and many other cars in the segment.
It is not as simple as that to judge how safe a car is. If you check ratings, the swift scores top marks too in terms of frontal, side and rear impact. Let's not try to judge so easily

As for the others claiming a stripped out version without safety features will bring in volumes, that is simply unethical on the companies end. I would also love a manual version more than anything with the same level of kit but I believe this car will sell pretty good. Anyone got any sales statistics? Number of bookings etc? One thing I believe they could have done to have it sell better is give it a few more subtle differences to distinguish it better from its 3 pot variant. Perhaps the red pinstriped GTI grille, mildly smoked rear taillamps and projectors for the front? oh and how I wish it came with nicer alloys

Last edited by IshaanIan : 17th May 2013 at 09:26.
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Old 17th May 2013, 09:25   #621
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Default Re: Volkswagen Polo 1.2L GT TSI : Official Review

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Originally Posted by IshaanIan View Post
It is not as simple as that to judge how safe a car is xD if you check ratings,
Sir, please re-read my comment, did I mention the ratings and I am not that who will blindly go with the ratings. I posted an example of badly crushed Polo and my observations.

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the swift scores top marks too in terms of frontal, side and rear impact. Let's not try to judge so easily
Please do provide the link of the source where did you find ratings for rear crash test of the Swift. It will help be helpful for me.

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Old 17th May 2013, 09:31   #622
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Originally Posted by tbppjpr View Post
Sir, please re-read my comment, did I mention the ratings and I am not that who will blindly go with the ratings. I posted an example of badly crushed Polo and my observations.
Duly noted. I am not saying the polo is unsafe it too is given top points. Unless you have seen the crash first hand, and know the specifics, a field observation like that is meaningless. If that were the case I have seen poorly mangled Bentley continentals it isn't as though those aren't safe :P Safety tests are pretty reliable one can cut a few points here and there since indian models come with fewer passive safety features but other than that, they are accurate.

Oh and my bad rear collision tests are only done to check whiplash protection on which it scores well but not many details apart from that. All I am saying is that distances between doors and the ends of a car cannot be enough for one to judge how safe it is. Many modern MPVs get amazing ratings with van like characteristics.

Last edited by IshaanIan : 17th May 2013 at 09:41.
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Old 17th May 2013, 10:04   #623
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Default Re: Volkswagen Polo 1.2L GT TSI : Official Review

@Ishaan - I really appreciate the points you put. But I would differ on few points here. First of all the crash ratings don't matter in most of the accidents happen in India because in most cases, the cars go underneath the trucks (cars are safe but Indian truck are not), hence no scope for crumple zones to absorb the impacts and they get hit directly at A pillars.

Crash ratings are as much as important for me as those are for you, but what I am saying is that we shouldn't believe them blindly. Watch and observe the images and videos of crashes, try to analyze which structural components are surviving how?

Another thing, add as much as safety features but if structure is not tolerant enough, the features not gonna save the lives. They are just supportive added safety features which do the job of saving from few more injuries. They hold their importance only if the structure absorbs most of the impact. If impact has transformed badly into the cabin, the safety features not gonna do anything.

And about the MPVs, most of those are flimsy built. You won't find any effective internal rigid components in the structures which ensure the rigidity. MPVs/MUVs/SUVs (most of the cost effective Indian vehicles) may look huge and may give a feel of sturdiness, but they actually aren't built the way modern cars are built, neither they are crash tested.

This is true that only distance between the rear end and the rear seat is not enough to ensure safety, but important is how well the structure has been built.

This is also true that we can't reach on any conclusion by seeing few collapsed cars and accidental situations are not same always. But if we pay a little attention then we can atleast find how the structural parts have behaved.

For example in that Polo's case, I found the boot area was crumpled but there I noticed few solid metal part under the outer skin of the C pillar. The impact ripped the outer metal sheet and reached till the the roof beam and that internal pillar part, and the marks on those components were expressing how they didn't let enter the impact into the cabin. Even the rear door looked intact from the impact.

My conclusion on rating of the various components of the car in terms of ensuring safety (where I am stuck until I am convinced with new findings) :

1. Structure - internal structure components rigidity, design and integration.
2. Crumple zone - how well they are designed and implemented
3. Active safety features - ABS, ESP etc
4. Passive safety features - Airbag

The airbags come at last in my list of important factors which ensure the safety in a vehicle.

Last edited by tbppjpr : 17th May 2013 at 10:21.
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Old 17th May 2013, 10:17   #624
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Default Re: Volkswagen Polo 1.2L GT TSI : Official Review

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Originally Posted by tbppjpr View Post
When I see the rear seat of the Swift, I find it close to the rear hatch door which is not safe IMO. In case of a rear end, there is risk of fatality for rear occupants. Whereas in the Polo, there is sedan like (in some cases, more than some popular CS sedans) space which also adds into sufficient crumple zone that it with additional sturdy built over Swift and many other cars in the segment.
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Originally Posted by IshaanIan View Post
Oh and my bad rear collision tests are only done to check whiplash protection on which it scores well but not many details apart from that. All I am saying is that distances between doors and the ends of a car cannot be enough for one to judge how safe it is. Many modern MPVs get amazing ratings with van like characteristics.
tbppjr is right about the chance of injury from being too close to the rear hatch - be it the Swift, Ertiga or Innova.

IshaanIan, MPVs get great safety ratings for front and side impacts. No one tests for rear collisions, as far as I know.

See this -

The Opel Zafira got 5 starts in Euro NCAP tests
http://www.euroncap.com/results/opel.../2011/457.aspx

Last edited by StarScream : 17th May 2013 at 10:37.
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Old 17th May 2013, 10:25   #625
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Default Re: Volkswagen Polo 1.2L GT TSI : Official Review

@starscream That is my point exactly! MPVs don't seem very safe given the flimsy looks and the short distance between the driver and the road but they still score well on frontal impact. I was relating that to how one cannot conclude a crash result by the distance between the doors and the end of a car.
@tbppjpr yes I appreciate where you are coming from too and yeah I know that it all depends upon a car's structure which is why safety features like airbags etc are called passive ones.

Anyway, enough OT!

Last edited by IshaanIan : 17th May 2013 at 10:26.
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Old 17th May 2013, 10:31   #626
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Default Re: Volkswagen Polo 1.2L GT TSI : Official Review

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Originally Posted by WindRide View Post
but not too many will take her home.
I was thinking on the same lines as you when I heard the price of this car. Not any more. If a top specification i20 diesel and petrol automatic can cost about as much as a GT, I see no reason to bring down the price for this car. Except for the rear bench accommodation, this car is, technically, leagues ahead of any hatch (and several sedans) on sale today and it is going to stay there for some time.

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it should bring in a base manual version without airbags and ESP.
As for pulling out safety net and offer a cut price version, I am not for this at all. If VW want to do a cut price version, let them pull out the stereo, auto air conditioning, rear bench and other bling stuff. This alone will bring down the price by close to a lac. A three door will be cool. Will there be takers for a cut price GT with no rear seats? Oh yeah.
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Old 17th May 2013, 10:53   #627
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Default Re: Volkswagen Polo 1.2L GT TSI : Official Review

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Originally Posted by IshaanIan View Post
@starscream That is my point exactly! MPVs don't seem very safe given the flimsy looks and the short distance between the driver and the road but they still score well on frontal impact. I was relating that to how one cannot conclude a crash result by the distance between the doors and the end of a car.
@tbppjpr yes I appreciate where you are coming from too and yeah I know that it all depends upon a car's structure which is why safety features like airbags etc are called passive ones.

Anyway, enough OT!
Fair enough, my intention wasn't to say that you were wrong. But I do think distance does make some difference. Of course there are other factors that come into play but your chances in the third row of an Ertiga will be significantly poorer than in the third row of an Innova - my entirely subjective opinion.

On a separate note and talking of hatches and rear impacts - Honda always said that they couldn't make the Jazz cheaper because reinforcements to the rear hatch to withstand an impact made it expensive to manufacture, even more so than the City. The Brio therefore scares the hell out of me.

To bring the discussion on track - the Polo may well be a better choice from a safety standpoint even with the limited rear seat space.
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Old 17th May 2013, 10:53   #628
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Default Re: Volkswagen Polo 1.2L GT TSI : Official Review

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I have seen a badly damaged Polo which was crushed between two vehicles. Bonnet and boot were crumpled in that case. When I went near the car started looking into the cabin I observed there wasn't any sign of any major damage, nor at front neither at rear seat.
+1. It is a very sturdy car. Here's a link which highlights the rigid build of the Polo and should put to rest all safety concerns:
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/street...y-vw-polo.html (God saved me on the Mumbai-Pune Expressway (in a VW Polo))
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Old 17th May 2013, 10:54   #629
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Originally Posted by sandeepmohan View Post


On other aspects, it will be wrong to compare the GT and T Jet. Hatchback and Sedan. The T Jet offers more passenger room at the back and a massive boot. The GT is cramped at the rear. Looks like VW decided to keep the boot nice and large and as a result, rear passenger room is tight. The GT works as a strict two seater. VW has the edge on quality of interior appointments.
Sandeep, how is the ride quality on the GT vis-a-vis the T-Jet? I gather from your earlier post that the handling is not top-of-the-line.

How is handling and ride quality compared to say a Petrol swift?
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Old 17th May 2013, 10:58   #630
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Originally Posted by KarthikK View Post
+1. It is a very sturdy car. Here's a link which highlights the rigid build of the Polo and should put to rest all safety concerns:
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/street...y-vw-polo.html (God saved me on the Mumbai-Pune Expressway (in a VW Polo))
If you ask me, in that case it was luck of that fellow that some angels were following him and saved his life. Lucky its only the driver's seat which was saved otherwise whole car and rest of the internal portion of the cabin got crushed very very badly. Thankfully there wasn't any other occupant in that car other than @Frontosa. It was case of tolerance limit.

But yeah, its a good example that Frontosa got convinced with the build quality of the Polo and reconsidering a VW as a replacement.

Anyways Karthik, I got the the point you are trying to put here . And this incident proves how the passive safety features, which rely on the electricals and sensor can be fooled sometimes.

Last edited by tbppjpr : 17th May 2013 at 11:14.
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