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Old 20th September 2016, 15:30   #10696
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Default EcoBoost - Technical Video

EcoBoost - Technical Video

Andrew Fraser is the Gasoline Powertrain Development manager Ford, and is the person who headed up the team which produced the EcoBoost engine. He's on record stating that it took up to 5 million man-hours — with up to 200 engineers over five years — to develop that engine.
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In the following video, he gives a 5-minute summary about the 1L EcoBoost engine in the EcoSport. I know we've had a lot of information shared about the EcoBoost engine, and Ford India also has a neat page about the EcoBoost engine. However, this video reveals some information that we'd previously not seen in the standard press releases. And who better to hear it from, than the man in charge of the engine design itself!



Here's a summary of the video, in case you prefer the written version:

Three Features to Allow Both Petrol-Like and Diesel-Like Characteristics
  • The petrol camp - they like the free-revving, fun-to-drive nature, with power available at higher RPM.
  • The diesel camp - they like the high-torque nature, and the ability to cruise at lower RPM.
  • EcoBoost engines have been designed to satisfy both camps.
  • Turbocharging and variable valve timing enable higher torque at low RPM.
  • Direct injection enables better power delivery through the rev range. It also offers finer control over the fuel-air ratio, leading to better fuel efficiency.

Refinement Improvements
  • Uses an unbalanced flywheel and pulley to offset the 3-cylinder vibrations. 3-cylinder engines are unbalanced in a front-to-back manner, and require external balancing to prevent a rocking motion. Traditionally, this has resulted in the use of a balancer shaft, but in order to cut down weight, Ford went with this approach.
  • The drive belt for the valvetrain is lubricated by engine oil - this gives the the best of both worlds of both a timing chain and timing belt - like a chain it doesn't require servicing, yet is light and quiet like a belt.
  • Fuel injectors are fitted with noise isolators for better refinement.
  • High pressure fuel pump is calibrated and has firmware to run smoother.

Engine Scavenging
  • Another feature to reduce turbo lag observed at low engine RPM.
  • When the throttle is opened at low RPM, to help the engine build up torque quicker, both intake and exhaust valves are kept open at the same time for a brief interval (this is where independent and variable cam timing helps, since it allows the ECU to selectively overlap the time the valves are open).
  • This allows dense inlet air to easily and directly flow into the exhaust, and help spin up the turbocharger quicker, which helps boost, and in turn helps the engine increase RPM quicker.
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Old 22nd September 2016, 09:27   #10697
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Default Re: Ford EcoSport : Official Review

LiveMint have an interesting article on the resale value of cars, where the Ford EcoSport commands good resale value, 3rd highest according to LiveMint's graph shown below. A 3-year old EcoSport is expected to command 87% of the current Delhi ex-showroom price.

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The article has the complete image, this has been cropped to show only upto the EcoSport.

Quote:
“Ford EcoSport is quite a surprise; it holds a good resale value. Part of that is due to the fact that there is more demand for that car than Ford can currently meet. People still have to wait for 4-6 weeks before they can get one,” Chopra said. Dhruv Chopra is the chief marketing officer at CarWale.com.
LiveMint article: http://www.livemint.com/Money/Yy1CfE...used-cars.html

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Old 22nd September 2016, 09:53   #10698
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Default Re: Ford EcoSport : Official Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by arunphilip View Post
LiveMint have an interesting article on the resale value of cars, where the Ford EcoSport commands good resale value, 3rd highest according to LiveMint's graph shown below. A 3-year old EcoSport is expected to command 87% of the current Delhi ex-showroom price.

Attachment 1557299
The article has the complete image, this has been cropped to show only upto the EcoSport.


LiveMint article: http://www.livemint.com/Money/Yy1CfE...used-cars.html
This is very good news for us Ecosport owners. Can't say that I'm too surprised by this because I occasionally check with sites like Car Trade for the resale value (the sellers' ideas as well as the site's fair value ideas).
What I am surprised is that it scores over cars like the Honda City & Hyundai i20. Not complaining tho'.
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Old 23rd September 2016, 01:55   #10699
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Default Re: Ford EcoSport : Official Review

Guys, after driving ~2k km of my new ecosport, have some strange questions:

1. Right from day 1, I hear a small thud crossing over the speed breakers, this happens if I am between 20km and 30km, if I am driving too slow or fast it doesn't happen. The same used to happen in my other car if tyre pressure was more, but I have checked ecosport pressure and it's always 30 (most of the time driven alone).

2. Mine is a TDCi and I idle 2mins during starting and 3-4 mins while stopping since ecosport doesn't have turbo timer, I have made this habit of doing it manually, now my question is, when I cold start and idle for 2mins and drive slowly still I hear diesel cluck cluck engine noise inside cabin, I don't rev more than 1200- 1500 rpm and drive very slowly and it takes at least few kms until that noise stops and engine becomes smooth, one day I decided to idle for 8-10mins and no noise, engine was smooth from start, so driving with 2-3 mins is fine or should I continue to idle for 10mins and then move the car?

3. My car is almost due for 1st service and i am confused as each service center is telling one thing, one said oil will be changed while other say oil won't be changed, can any of you guy tell me if engine oil and other things will be replaced, also what will they be doing in 1st service, if they are not changing, should I ask for then to change oil?

4. This is the first vehicle I own which has ABS, whenever I brake I feel it's not adequate, I don't know how to say this, but light foot on the brakes, the vehicle is still in motion and needs deep press at fast speed, I sometimes hear a squeak sound when brake mid pressed, is this normal on new car?
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Old 23rd September 2016, 09:28   #10700
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Default Re: Ford EcoSport : Official Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnruben View Post
Guys, after driving ~2k km of my new ecosport, have some strange questions:
Congratulations on your new Ecosport!

Quote:
1. Right from day 1, I hear a small thud crossing over the speed breakers, this happens if I am between 20km and 30km, if I am driving too slow or fast it doesn't happen. The same used to happen in my other car if tyre pressure was more, but I have checked ecosport pressure and it's always 30 (most of the time driven alone).
This thud while tackling speed breakers is typically present in all Ford cars, it's a Ford trait you can say. It happens in my Figo too and has been reported in other cars as well. Something to do with how the suspension has been designed. Turns out this is not a serious issue. Maybe someone with a long term ownership can shed some light on this.

Quote:
2. Mine is a TDCi and I idle 2mins during starting and 3-4 mins while stopping since ecosport doesn't have turbo timer, I have made this habit of doing it manually, now my question is, when I cold start and idle for 2mins and drive slowly still I hear diesel cluck cluck engine noise inside cabin, I don't rev more than 1200- 1500 rpm and drive very slowly and it takes at least few kms until that noise stops and engine becomes smooth, one day I decided to idle for 8-10mins and no noise, engine was smooth from start, so driving with 2-3 mins is fine or should I continue to idle for 10mins and then move the car?
I have a TDCi too and I normally idle for a minute or so in the morning, still I have not heard the noise that you mention. Perhaps I will check with turning the music off. :P

Quote:
3. My car is almost due for 1st service and i am confused as each service center is telling one thing, one said oil will be changed while other say oil won't be changed, can any of you guy tell me if engine oil and other things will be replaced, also what will they be doing in 1st service, if they are not changing, should I ask for then to change oil?
AFAIK they just top the oil if required and do not change it. IIRC the service manual has a mention of this.

Quote:
4. This is the first vehicle I own which has ABS, whenever I brake I feel it's not adequate, I don't know how to say this, but light foot on the brakes, the vehicle is still in motion and needs deep press at fast speed, I sometimes hear a squeak sound when brake mid pressed, is this normal on new car?
That is strange. I have not driven Ecosport so extensively to comment on the above. But the brakes on Figo are brilliant and assuring. ABS should have nothing to do with the normal braking instances, if I am not wrong.
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Old 23rd September 2016, 09:33   #10701
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Default Re: Ford EcoSport : Official Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnruben View Post
3. My car is almost due for 1st service and i am confused as each service center is telling one thing, one said oil will be changed while other say oil won't be changed, can any of you guy tell me if engine oil and other things will be replaced, also what will they be doing in 1st service, if they are not changing, should I ask for then to change oil?
Oil change is not mandated as part of first service.

However, get it done at your cost since this is a new engine and the car has run sufficiently to flush out any metal shard remnants. It should cost you about Rs. 1100.
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Old 23rd September 2016, 10:19   #10702
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Default Re: Ford EcoSport : Official Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnruben View Post
Guys, after driving ~2k km of my new ecosport, have some strange questions:
Congratulations on your EcoSport, johnruben!

In addition to what teemus and libranof1987 have said - which I fully agree with, I wanted to make a few points:

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnruben View Post
1. Right from day 1, I hear a small thud crossing over the speed breakers, this happens if I am between 20km and 30km, if I am driving too slow or fast it doesn't happen. The same used to happen in my other car if tyre pressure was more, but I have checked ecosport pressure and it's always 30 (most of the time driven alone).
This is a "feature" of Fords, and I'm surprised it wasn't caught and addressed in the extensive testing Ford did of the EcoSport for a year prior to launch. Easiest way to work around this is to slightly adjust the driving style - not ideal, I know, but is the simplest and cheapest way out.

What I do is brake before reaching the speed breaker until the car has slowed down enough, and just before the front wheels hit the speed breaker, release the brakes. Releasing the brakes will uncompress the front suspension allowing it to move more once the tyres encounter the speed breaker. If the brakes are pressed when the tyres climb the speed breaker, then the suspension is compressed due to weight transfer (which, combined with the heavy front of the car) resulting in reduced travel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnruben View Post
2. Mine is a TDCi and I idle 2mins during starting and 3-4 mins while stopping since ecosport doesn't have turbo timer
For the EcoSport, there's no need to idle the engine at all during start up. You can start the car, and drive away normally, provided you don't rev the engine too much. Idling a stationary car is required only if you need to rev the engine to get out (e.g. a steep ramp). Likewise, there's no need to idle the engine when stopping it, just ensure the engine has reached idle speed before switching off.

The manual doesn't make any mention about idling the engine for any amount of time at start and stop. It only cautions us against turning off the engine if its running at speed (i.e. more than idle).
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I know many of us will feel weird about just driving away after starting, so you can incorporate a bit of idling by fitting your routine around it:
  • At startup, prioritize starting the car before you buckle up, and then let the engine idle for just those few seconds while you buckle up, turn on some music, etc. More importantly, for the first 5-10 minutes, drive the engine gently - no lugging, but no excessive revving either.
  • When stopping, for the last 5 minutes approach to your home, drive gently without excessive revving. Park the car and let it idle while you unbuckle, gather your phone, etc. Then turn the engine off.
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnruben View Post
3. My car is almost due for 1st service and i am confused as each service center is telling one thing, one said oil will be changed while other say oil won't be changed, can any of you guy tell me if engine oil and other things will be replaced, also what will they be doing in 1st service, if they are not changing, should I ask for then to change oil?
The first service at 2500 km/3 months is an inspection-only service. They are not meant to change anything by default, but only top-up fluids (oil, coolant, washer), listen to any customer complaints or issues, and inspect for any issues like leaks, etc. Oil changes happen only at the 10k km/annual services. If you wish, you could ask for an oil change, as libranof1987 has mentioned - this is more of an individual choice. I personally didn't opt for this, but there are others who swear by an oil change in the first few thousand kms.

EDIT: The change in noises you hear in the first 10 minutes might be related to the water cooling, where the thermostat valve to the radiator opens after the engine has reached operating temperature. Or it could just be the other parts of the engine reaching operating temperature. In any case, there's no need for you to wait that long before you start moving. Remember that the gearbox also needs to reach operating temperature. Imagine if you idle for 10 minutes and then drive normally thinking everything's warmed up - but your gearbox will still be at ambient temperature!

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnruben View Post
4. This is the first vehicle I own which has ABS, whenever I brake I feel it's not adequate, I don't know how to say this, but light foot on the brakes, the vehicle is still in motion and needs deep press at fast speed, I sometimes hear a squeak sound when brake mid pressed, is this normal on new car?
Pretty sure ABS has got nothing to do with the brake feel - if the ABS were working, you'll know it from the strong vibration/pulses on the brake pedal. Also, ABS doesn't alter the performance of the braking system when its not working. Do you feel the braking performance is different/worse compared to another EcoSport or the test drive vehicle? If so, its worth pointing out to the Ford guys. If not, then its probably just a matter of mentally adjusting to it. For what my opinion is worth, I've not felt the brakes to be any different from other cars, and have been satisfied with its performance at speed (e.g. highways).

Squealing sound - point that out to the Ford guys during the service - the brake drums at the rear might need cleaning or lubrication. Is the squeak sound present at all times upon braking, or is it more prominent in the morning? If the brake discs are wet (e.g. after washing the car in the morning) then a light layer of rust might form resulting in either a hissing or squeaking sound until this layer is rubbed off.

Last edited by arunphilip : 23rd September 2016 at 10:31.
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Old 23rd September 2016, 12:42   #10703
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Default Re: Ford EcoSport : Official Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by teemus View Post
Congratulations on your new Ecosport!

This thud while tackling speed breakers is typically present in all Ford cars, it's a Ford trait you can say. It happens in my Figo too and has been reported in other cars as well. Something to do with how the suspension has been designed. Turns out this is not a serious issue. Maybe someone with a long term ownership can shed some light on this.
Strange, this was never mentioned in any reviews, i guess i have to live with this



Quote:
Originally Posted by libranof1987 View Post
Oil change is not mandated as part of first service.

However, get it done at your cost since this is a new engine and the car has run sufficiently to flush out any metal shard remnants. It should cost you about Rs. 1100.
The question is, do the modern engine shred metallic parts ?
Can you provide me any reference link?

Quote:
Originally Posted by arunphilip View Post
Congratulations on your EcoSport, johnruben!

This is a "feature" of Fords, and I'm surprised it wasn't caught and addressed in the extensive testing Ford did of the EcoSport for a year prior to launch. Easiest way to work around this is to slightly adjust the driving style - not ideal, I know, but is the simplest and cheapest way out.

What I do is brake before reaching the speed breaker until the car has slowed down enough, and just before the front wheels hit the speed breaker, release the brakes. Releasing the brakes will uncompress the front suspension allowing it to move more once the tyres encounter the speed breaker. If the brakes are pressed when the tyres climb the speed breaker, then the suspension is compressed due to weight transfer (which, combined with the heavy front of the car) resulting in reduced travel.
Well first i thought my air pressure was on higher side, checked with 2 petrol bunks and finally i checked in Shell, the pressure was still the same 30psi, then i thought it could be because of big wheels crossing a small speed breaker but it turned out to be a glitch in suspension

I will try to follow what you said....thanks.


Quote:
Originally Posted by arunphilip View Post
For the EcoSport, there's no need to idle the engine at all during start up. You can start the car, and drive away normally, provided you don't rev the engine too much. Idling a stationary car is required only if you need to rev the engine to get out (e.g. a steep ramp). Likewise, there's no need to idle the engine when stopping it, just ensure the engine has reached idle speed before switching off.
I will try to minimize my idle time, thanks.


Quote:
Originally Posted by arunphilip View Post
The first service at 2500 km/3 months is an inspection-only service. They are not meant to change anything by default, but only top-up fluids (oil, coolant, washer), listen to any customer complaints or issues, and inspect for any issues like leaks, etc. Oil changes happen only at the 10k km/annual services. If you wish, you could ask for an oil change, as libranof1987 has mentioned - this is more of an individual choice. I personally didn't opt for this, but there are others who swear by an oil change in the first few thousand kms.

EDIT: The change in noises you hear in the first 10 minutes might be related to the water cooling, where the thermostat valve to the radiator opens after the engine has reached operating temperature. Or it could just be the other parts of the engine reaching operating temperature. In any case, there's no need for you to wait that long before you start moving. Remember that the gearbox also needs to reach operating temperature. Imagine if you idle for 10 minutes and then drive normally thinking everything's warmed up - but your gearbox will still be at ambient temperature!
I would spent 1k more to change the oil, but i need to know if new modern engine do shred minute metallic parts and do they really need to be changed ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by arunphilip View Post

Squealing sound - point that out to the Ford guys during the service - the brake drums at the rear might need cleaning or lubrication. Is the squeak sound present at all times upon braking, or is it more prominent in the morning? If the brake discs are wet (e.g. after washing the car in the morning) then a light layer of rust might form resulting in either a hissing or squeaking sound until this layer is rubbed off.
Yes, it was present in the demo car and its there in my friends ecosport too, its exactly not squeaking sound, but kind of feel on the legs when your legs are on the brakes (specially half pressed), i will see if i can record the sound of this as well as engine idle sound and post here.

Washing car has no effect or side effect of this sound.
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Old 23rd September 2016, 13:50   #10704
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Default Re: Ford EcoSport : Official Review

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Strange, this (suspension behaviour) was never mentioned in any reviews, i guess i have to live with this
It wasn't called out in detail on page 1 of this review but it was referenced with the statement "Sharp bumps send an equally sharp jolt to the cabin". However, it has been discussed by multiple owners. Take a look at this post (Ford EcoSport : Official Review) and the subsequent responses for a recent instance, as well as peoples suggestions for how to handle it.

But yes, I fully agree its not something that has outright pleased any owner - we end up driving around this behaviour, and accepting it as the compromise for good highway stability/handling. And we shut our ears to people praising the carpet-like ride of their Dusters

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnruben View Post
The question is, do the modern engine shred metallic parts ?
...
I would spent 1k more to change the oil, but i need to know if new modern engine do shred minute metallic parts and do they really need to be changed ?
The reasoning goes like this - the engine has different moving parts that need to bed into one another, so there will be wear and tear in the initial days while this happens, resulting in metallic shavings/slivers in the engine oil, hence the need for an initial change to get rid of these shavings.

A counterpoint that gets raised for this is - the engine has an oil filter whose purpose is to trap these physical contaminants, and not leave them floating around in the oil. In some cars, the oil plug is also usually magnetized on the inside to catch any such shavings.

I personally accepted the counterpoint, so didn't opt for the change. Since the engine oil is semi-synth and is cheap at about 1k, if you err on the side of caution by changing it, it won't cost you too much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnruben View Post
Yes, it was present in the demo car and its there in my friends ecosport too, its exactly not squeaking sound, but kind of feel on the legs when your legs are on the brakes (specially half pressed)
OK - that does sound like the normal feel/sound of the brakes. Try getting the rear drum cleaned during your first service. It might just be irregular deposition of worn-out brake pad material that's giving this feel. Cleaning the brake drum will cost a few hundred in labour, and about a 100 for an anti-rust spray.
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Old 23rd September 2016, 16:45   #10705
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Default Re: Ford EcoSport : Official Review

Anyone with an AT aware of such an issue? There's another guy in the comment with the same problem. Is it something they're doing wrong? Faulty car?

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Old 23rd September 2016, 17:04   #10706
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Default Re: Ford EcoSport : Official Review

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Anyone with an AT aware of such an issue? There's another guy in the comment with the same problem. Is it something they're doing wrong? Faulty car?
I can see the powertrain warning light (orange gear symbol in the speedometer) lit up, indicating there's some problem with the gearbox that needs it looked at by Ford. It could be as major as a transmission/TCM failure, or as minor as something that needs correcting.
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One thing that confused me was that one glimpse shown of the gear selector showed it in the forward "Park" position, and I'm not sure if the driver ever attempted to move it out of park.

Oddly enough, the video doesn't match the description that states the car moves at 5 km/h, because in the video I don't recall seeing anything other than 0 km/h.

Without any other detail, its hard to arrive at any conclusions.

These are the 2 threads (one EcoSport, one Fiesta) that document the issues faced with the PowerShift transmission quite well:

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Old 23rd September 2016, 17:08   #10707
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Default Re: Ford EcoSport : Official Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by arunphilip View Post
I can see the powertrain warning light (orange gear symbol in the speedometer) lit up, indicating there's some problem with the gearbox that needs it looked at by Ford. It could be as major as a transmission/TCM failure, or as minor as something that needs correcting.
Attachment 1558211

One thing that confused me was that one glimpse shown of the gear selector showed it in the forward "Park" position, and I'm not sure if the driver ever attempted to move it out of park.

Oddly enough, the video doesn't match the description that states the car moves at 5 km/h, because in the video I don't recall seeing anything other than 0 km/h.

Without any other detail, its hard to arrive at any conclusions.
Yeah, I think the description is wrong. In another video he mentions that the engine does not rev beyond 1000RPM even with the acceleration and your explanation makes sense I think. Again, this may be a one-off case but definitely seeing more complaints on AT than manual.
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Old 23rd September 2016, 18:56   #10708
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Default Re: Ford EcoSport : Official Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by arunphilip View Post
It wasn't called out in detail on page 1 of this review but it was referenced with the statement "Sharp bumps send an equally sharp jolt to the cabin". However, it has been discussed by multiple owners. Take a look at this post (Ford EcoSport : Official Review) and the subsequent responses for a recent instance, as well as peoples suggestions for how to handle it.
I think i missed this, I know there is no perfect car made, but this minor niggle can be ignored sometime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arunphilip View Post
The reasoning goes like this - the engine has different moving parts that need to bed into one another, so there will be wear and tear in the initial days while this happens, resulting in metallic shavings/slivers in the engine oil, hence the need for an initial change to get rid of these shavings.

A counterpoint that gets raised for this is - the engine has an oil filter whose purpose is to trap these physical contaminants, and not leave them floating around in the oil. In some cars, the oil plug is also usually magnetized on the inside to catch any such shavings.

I personally accepted the counterpoint, so didn't opt for the change. Since the engine oil is semi-synth and is cheap at about 1k, if you err on the side of caution by changing it, it won't cost you too much.
Thanks for explaining me, i understand, after reading this i definitely will be changing the oil

Quote:
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OK - that does sound like the normal feel/sound of the brakes. Try getting the rear drum cleaned during your first service. It might just be irregular deposition of worn-out brake pad material that's giving this feel. Cleaning the brake drum will cost a few hundred in labour, and about a 100 for an anti-rust spray.
ok I will inform them for cleaning the brakes when i service.

Arun, since you are from Bangalore, can you recommend me good service center and any known person who i can trust? I heard cauvery ford is good, but i got my car from metro ford guys, hope that doesn't make a difference.
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Old 23rd September 2016, 19:09   #10709
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Arun, since you are from Bangalore, can you recommend me good service center and any known person who i can trust? I heard cauvery ford is good, but i got my car from metro ford guys, hope that doesn't make a difference.
I've used Lathangi Ford for the first 3 services and was happy with them. But after reading this episode (Bangalore: Lathangi Ford crashes customer EcoSport; 1.6 Lakhs of damage. UPDATE: Resolved by Ford!) I decided to move away from them (on the basis of principle). My upcoming service will be at Metro Ford Lingarajapuram, as fellow-member d3mon reported a good experience with them.

I've not had any experience with either Cauvery Ford or Elite Ford, but if you've heard good stuff about Cauvery, then give them a shot. Name drop whomever gave that recommendation, just to add that personal touch.

For your first service in particular, please spare the time to stay at the service center until the car is returned (and let the SA know this). As mentioned, its mostly an inspection service, and the brake cleaning/oil change should each take only about 30 minutes and can be done in parallel. The total first service should take only about 1-2 hours at the most. So, staying with the car will ensure that they don't just leave the car idle after finishing work (or worse, keep moving it around to free up space, or park it on some outside road). It never hurts to chat up the mechanics who're actually working on your car - a bit of friendliness will mean they treat your car a little better.

Also, check to see if the car wash area is a bottleneck - many service centers have many service bays but a single wash bay. If so, you can opt out of the free car wash to save time. I always do this, because right after every service I take my car to 3M for a complete wash and wax.

In general too, I'd advocate staying with the vehicle for future services, just to ensure you don't come to grief later. Its not the best use of our time, but its only an annual occurrence.
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Old 23rd September 2016, 19:18   #10710
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Default Re: Ford EcoSport : Official Review

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Originally Posted by arunphilip View Post
I've used Lathangi Ford for the first 3 services and was happy with them. But after reading this episode (Bangalore: Lathangi Ford crashes customer EcoSport; 1.6 Lakhs of damage. UPDATE: Resolved by Ford!) I decided to move away from them (on the basis of principle). My upcoming service will be at Metro Ford Lingarajapuram, as fellow-member d3mon reported a good experience with them.

Also, check to see if the car wash area is a bottleneck - many service centers have many service bays but a single wash bay. If so, you can opt out of the free car wash to save time. I always do this, because right after every service I take my car to 3M for a complete wash and wax.

In general too, I'd advocate staying with the vehicle for future services, just to ensure you don't come to grief later. Its not the best use of our time, but its only an annual occurrence.
Thanks Arun for your reference, Lingarajpuram Metro which is located under the fly over is close to my place too, i will contact this BHPian for any reference. Regarding wash i really dont want to give them as i am sure there will be swirls all over. I do the same and its with 3M mostly.
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