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Old 30th August 2013, 11:23   #46
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Default Re: Toyota Camry Hybrid : Official Review

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Excellent review! Thanks!
The difference in cost between a gasoline and hybrid car is too much even in the US. I think a Prius costs 2-3 thousand dollars more than a V6 Accord. To get a break-even just from the fuel economy (when compared with a similar car like Corola / Civic), it would easily take a decade or so. But there are several other advantages in buying a Hybrid there. Some of them that I know of:
- Income tax benefits for Hybrid car buyers
- Car pool lane can be used even if the Hybrid has just the driver
- Reduced rate / free parking in many places

So for Hybrids to sustain in India, IMO, buyers should see a lot more benefits other than just fuel economy unless you are an environmentalist.

Interesting Note: Skoda Superb 2.0 diesel's emissions is just 120 g/km. (Source: http://www.thegreencarwebsite.co.uk/...skoda/superb/)
The government is more likely to tax hybrids stating that electronic imports are excessive, the problem with low mileage in petrols is compounded by our K30 fuel(kerosene 30%). I think mileage in town should be much better than NA engines, especially in our stop and go traffic, I read car and driver online, the comments seem to suggest that Hybrid is uneconomical without the federal subsidy and tax breaks.

OT would like a manual superb 1.6TDI here, economical limo if there is one.
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Old 30th August 2013, 11:53   #47
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Default Re: Toyota Camry Hybrid : Official Review

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The government is more likely to tax hybrids stating that electronic imports are excessive, the problem with low mileage in petrols is compounded by our K30 fuel(kerosene 30%).
Its shocking to know our fuel is mixed with Kerosene, wont that result in heavy smoke?

Toyota can start assembling in India to reduce costs. However, all said and done, what about the battery replacements, doesn't that incur a heavy cost, every 2-3 years? One reason why people are shying away from hybrids.

Furthermore, such cars are still in the evolution stage, it wont be a surprise if you find it difficult to get spares five years down the lane, because the production is kept low owing to low demands.

I'm sure resale value is extremely low for such vehicles.
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Old 30th August 2013, 12:22   #48
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Default Re: Toyota Camry Hybrid : Official Review

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Its shocking to know our fuel is mixed with Kerosene, wont that result in heavy smoke?

I'm sure resale value is extremely low for such vehicles.
My cousin got a bottle of kerosene after his car was towed to the garage with severe engine knocking and black smoke. He used the Kerosene for starting his generator, I was under the impression that only petrol was adulterated apparently based on volumes it is profitable to do it for diesel also.

Resale for a hybrid is low, just like a rebuild, the battery pack needs replacement given it has a life for so many charges. Spare parts shouldn't be an issue, the system is used in many Toyota vehicles and most of them sell well in other markets.
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Old 30th August 2013, 15:43   #49
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Default Re: Toyota Camry Hybrid : Official Review

Nice review Vidyutji! Thanks to Samurai sir's visit to Japan we had a good look on toyota (toyoda ) tech with respect to hybrid and now we have a review of a car as well! Well there will be a lot of questions with regards to the asking price of this car. In the end, everyone wants to know how to get their money's worth and i am not being judgemental or anything, i really think the pricing should have been 20-25L for people to consider this. Also, most of the general populace i figure would not be aware of what a hybrid is and therefore, i feel the onus is on the government to bring out new rules favouring hybrids. They better not kill it right at the start because i am up for going green but please, at a price where my wallet doesnt weep eternally.
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Old 30th August 2013, 18:16   #50
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Default Re: Toyota Camry Hybrid : Official Review

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Resale for a hybrid is low, just like a rebuild, the battery pack needs replacement given it has a life for so many charges. Spare parts shouldn't be an issue, the system is used in many Toyota vehicles and most of them sell well in other markets.
Which country has lower resale for Hybrid? The life of the battery pack is 8 to 10 years usually. The battery is usually guaranteed for the life of the vehicles.

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However, all said and done, what about the battery replacements, doesn't that incur a heavy cost, every 2-3 years? One reason why people are shying away from hybrids.
2-3 years is for a normal car battery. The Hybrid does not use a normal car type battery. It is more like a cell phone battery i.e. Ni-MH or Li-ion. The battery is designed for the life of the car or usually between 8 to 10 years depending on usage. There is nothing like 2 to 3 years battery changes.

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Furthermore, such cars are still in the evolution stage, it wont be a surprise if you find it difficult to get spares five years down the lane, because the production is kept low owing to low demands.

I'm sure resale value is extremely low for such vehicles.
Evolution stage? Toyota launched the Prius in 1997 and it went on sale in the US in 2000. Since the year 2000 Toyota has sold 1.2 million Prius'.

In Japan Hybrids hold 20% market share. Out of the 20% hybrids in Japan, 46% sales are from Toyota.
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Old 30th August 2013, 22:28   #51
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Default Re: Toyota Camry Hybrid : Official Review

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Which country has lower resale for Hybrid? The life of the battery pack is 8 to 10 years usually. The battery is usually guaranteed for the life of the vehicles.
.
A guarantee for the lifetime of the vehicle is impossible, the disposal of the battery is a pain and the battery has a lifetime, certainly the vehicle will outlive the battery. Which country has hybrids in large numbers to certify that resale is top notch?
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Old 30th August 2013, 22:41   #52
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Default Re: Toyota Camry Hybrid : Official Review

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A guarantee for the lifetime of the vehicle is impossible, the disposal of the battery is a pain and the battery has a lifetime, certainly the vehicle will outlive the battery.
Here's a few links that mention that the battery can easily go above 100,000miles. Prius with more than 200,000miles with no battery change.

Toyota's warranty on the battery is 8years 100,000 miles or 10 years 150,000miles.

http://www.greenhybrid.com/discuss/f...ry-life-27732/

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/...ent-cost-guide

While our harsh conditions would reduce the life of the battery it's safe to say the battery will not be the first thing on the car that will need upkeep on our roads.

Quote:
Which country has hybrids in large numbers to certify that resale is top notch?
In your earlier post you stated that resale for a Hybrid is low. Hence my question was "which country has lower resale for Hybrids?" since I was not aware of this fact. Neither in my reply did I say that resale is top notch. We're going in circles.

I can't see why resale would be low. Better FE and the miles on the car never equate to the number of miles done by the engine. A 1 lakh Kms hybrid would have run the engine for around 50,000kms.
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Old 31st August 2013, 07:34   #53
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Default Re: Toyota Camry Hybrid : Official Review

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Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
2-3 years is for a normal car battery. The Hybrid does not use a normal car type battery. It is more like a cell phone battery i.e. Ni-MH or Li-ion. The battery is designed for the life of the car or usually between 8 to 10 years depending on usage. There is nothing like 2 to 3 years battery changes.
Note, but what would be the cost of battery replacement after the 8-10 years? If the cost less than 50% of the residual value of the car, the cost is considerable, else its still an expensive proposition.
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Old 31st August 2013, 08:36   #54
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Default Re: Toyota Camry Hybrid : Official Review

Excellent review Vid! All I have to say about this car that bringing in a Hybrid is surely a welcome move from Toyota, and I feel they have really done whatever they could of the pricing, atleast its not as ridiculously priced as the Prius (when it was brought to India). However, I do feel Toyota has been really thick not offering these additional luxury (rear-seat) comforts in the standard Camry. 4 airbags is an improvement from the standard 2 yes, but the segment norm is 6 as the review very well mentions.

Everything said and done, even if the price does fall into Merc C/A4/3-Series category, there simply is no comparing the backseat experience of this car to those especially with the new goodies. This car can seriously appeal to the well-healed (read: environmentally aware and wealthy) chauffeur driven saahab.

I have had a go in the standard car and I really do believe, the ride comfort and quality is truly at par with the Merc E-Class if not better.

Regards,
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Old 31st August 2013, 11:22   #55
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Default Re: Toyota Camry Hybrid : Official Review

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Here's a few links that mention that the battery can easily go above 100,000miles. Prius with more than 200,000miles with no battery change.


I can't see why resale would be low. Better FE and the miles on the car never equate to the number of miles done by the engine. A 1 lakh Kms hybrid would have run the engine for around 50,000kms.
Depreciation versus cost of the battery, considering that raw material costs will go through the roof once hybrids become a mainstream choice. The warranty is good right now as everyone is out to capture market share, down the line this will not be true, any consumer product has the same story.

This price makes diesel a good option and brand is probably the most important factor, I don't know about others here but at 38 Lakhs OTR, I'll probably get a German diesel. Nobody is impressed with a Toyota these days unless its a Fortuner which is roughly in the same price tag.
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Old 31st August 2013, 11:33   #56
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Default Re: Toyota Camry Hybrid : Official Review

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Which country has lower resale for Hybrid? The life of the battery pack is 8 to 10 years usually. The battery is usually guaranteed for the life of the vehicles.

2-3 years is for a normal car battery. The Hybrid does not use a normal car type battery. It is more like a cell phone battery i.e. Ni-MH or Li-ion. The battery is designed for the life of the car or usually between 8 to 10 years depending on usage. There is nothing like 2 to 3 years battery changes.

Evolution stage? Toyota launched the Prius in 1997 and it went on sale in the US in 2000. Since the year 2000 Toyota has sold 1.2 million Prius'.

In Japan Hybrids hold 20% market share. Out of the 20% hybrids in Japan, 46% sales are from Toyota.
True! and we have member Anekho's thread running on Prius Hybrid.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-d...ml#post3068273

A battery pack which can last for the car's life is good enough IMO, and I don't the resale value would take a big hit because its a hybrid.
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Old 31st August 2013, 12:28   #57
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Default Re: Toyota Camry Hybrid : Official Review

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Depreciation versus cost of the battery, considering that raw material costs will go through the roof once hybrids become a mainstream choice. The warranty is good right now as everyone is out to capture market share, down the line this will not be true, any consumer product has the same story.
Isn't it exactly the opposite? Once Hybrid's become mainstream choice the cost of manufacturing will only go down and not up. That is the story with any consumer product right now.

One example is LED TV's. When first announced LED's were priced exorbitantly. Over the years they are now mainstream choice since manufacturing costs have gone down.

Infact the Hybrid's have now moved onto the next stage i.e. PHEV or Plug in Hybrid Electric Vehicle. These use a much larger battery pack (almost double) that can be charged at home and run on EV mode for a much longer distance.

While I agree the Camry's pricing is on higher side, it's not all lost. You get a lot for what your paying for and the peace of mind of owning a Toyota is what will draw people towards it.

If your looking for driving pleasure and outright performance then the Camry isn't the car. The European's trump the Toyota in that department.
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Old 2nd September 2013, 10:02   #58
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Default Re: Toyota Camry Hybrid : Official Review

I think Toyota should put more faith in their products, and aggressively go in for Yaris (mainstream + hybrid) including a mix of manufacture + imported engine battery kit etc. I know product planning is not such a simple exercise, but an early start in the hybrid game would give them an unassailable advantage, similar to what Innova and Fortuner has done for them, in spite of being expensive products.

In hindsight, trying to "keep up with the (Maruti and Honda) Jones" with budget sedans and hatchbacks has clearly not given them volumes, and it has taken too much management time, attention and resources.

A recession is a great time to re-look at strategies, and go back to what Toyota does best viz. build solid, durable, reliable cars that go on to provide their owners a decade and a half of great service.
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Old 2nd September 2013, 18:07   #59
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Default Re: Toyota Camry Hybrid : Official Review

Hybrids will be more easily adopted if it is priced similar to its petrol counterparts or at a slight premium, at 5L more only people who care about Polar Bears and Arctic would dare to buy one.
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Old 2nd September 2013, 20:33   #60
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Default Re: Toyota Camry Hybrid : Official Review

The 5L premium makes little sense. If the manufacturers and authorities wish to provide a filip to greener cars, then they need to provide incentives for people to buy these cars, not charge premiums, which is kind of the opposite direction.
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