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Old 16th August 2016, 21:58   #5431
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross : Official Review

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Originally Posted by greatmana2000 View Post
Dr. Naren , What I am trying to point out is apart from a very very momentary 320NM of torque the car is making more of 250NM torque in most of its usable power band . In real world conditions a flatter torque curve producing 250Nm car over a larger part of the RPM band would be much faster as the pull is constant rather than low-high-low torque . So for each gear instead of a constant torque what you get is low torque -high torque and then low torque . With a better power delivery one could technically stay for a much much longer time in any gear than on the 1.6 . The 1.3 wont accelerate faster than a 1.6 for sure . But , when you are doing 120 in both the time taken to reach 160 is not really different . It takes ages in both . To get the car to reach higher speeds is agony on both .
Also , 900 RPM to 1700 RPM is the most used torque band as well as 1700 -3000 RPM . A competent driver has to make sure that the car is in between those power bands and that is real hard work for a relaxed cruising vehicle .
I fully agree that flat torque curve is better. That's what I am planning to do with remap for 1.6 S-Cross. When you hold the peak torque for longer revv band, you get extra horses too.

At the same time, I am saying that 1.6 has lots of torque across the revv band compared to competition.

I dont agree about both 1.3 and 1.6 taking long time to accelerate from 120+. I drive a remapped 1.3 and stock 1.6. My S-Cross feels way faster than remapped 1.3 SX4. It picks up speed effortlessly. Just make sure you are above 1700 RPM, 1.6 would pull very sweetly with just a tap on accelerator pedal.

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Originally Posted by Sree73 View Post
Here goes with the Speed - Torque graphs of Hyundai1.6 / VW1.6 and Renault1.5.

Let the discussion continue.
Hyundai 1.6 graph posted is European version which has slightly more power and torque. Anyways, the graph might look same for Indian 1.6. Most of the manufacturers give flat torque curve in turbo zone. 1.6 S-Cross would have been just brutal if it had flat torque of 320 NM for longer revv band(I would get it done by remap ). Even in stock map, 1.6 can't be termed as underpowered /difficult to accelerate post 120 etc.

I have driven many diesel cars and few engines which were really addictive were in

1. BMW 530 D
2. BMW 320 D
3. Cruze (Old)
4. 1.6 S-Cross
5. 1.6 Vento/Rapid

Last edited by SDP : 17th August 2016 at 08:57. Reason: Edited high-speed reference
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Old 16th August 2016, 22:06   #5432
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross : Official Review

I believe it is widely accepted that the 1.6 DDiS 320 is not the most tractable of motors out there. No one is arguing otherwise and there is thus no point in concluding so. What Dr.Naren points out however, is interesting. While the motor might produce significantly less torque post peak delivery, it is still producing more than its competition. Therefore, when someone says that post 100kph their S-Cross takes the same time to accelerate as their Punto 1.3, I have no qualms in calling BS; either that person is not experienced enough to distinguish between outright acceleration and in-gear acceleration, or they are allowing the psychological effect of the moody torque delivery, to get in the way of the actual truth.

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Originally Posted by greatmana2000 View Post
Dr. Naren , What I am trying to point out is apart from a very very momentary 320NM of torque the car is making more of 250NM torque in most of its usable power band . In real world conditions a flatter torque curve producing 250Nm car over a larger part of the RPM band would be much faster as the pull is constant rather than low-high-low torque . So for each gear instead of a constant torque what you get is low torque -high torque and then low torque .
Very true it is not as tractable. However what you really mean is that it is low-high-still higher than most. Outright acceleration is still a strength.

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Originally Posted by greatmana2000 View Post
With a better power delivery one could technically stay for a much much longer time in any gear than on the 1.6 . The 1.3 wont accelerate faster than a 1.6 for sure . But , when you are doing 120 in both the time taken to reach 160 is not really different . It takes ages in both . To get the car to reach higher speeds is agony on both .
Time it and get back to us please

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Originally Posted by greatmana2000 View Post
Also , 900 RPM to 1700 RPM is the most used torque band as well as 1700 -3000 RPM . A competent driver has to make sure that the car is in between those power bands and that is real hard work for a relaxed cruising vehicle .
Most used rev-band for Uber drivers maybe A competent driver will be flexible and find the right rev-band depending on the drivetrain to suit his/her driving style

Last edited by IshaanIan : 16th August 2016 at 22:13.
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Old 16th August 2016, 22:27   #5433
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross : Official Review

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Originally Posted by greatmana2000 View Post

On a hilly twisty road with patches of straight roads , I am sure one would experience more than frequent gearshifts .As far as I am concerned , there is nothing to die for in the S-cross or the 1.6 engine .

If one is interested in the S-cross then it has to be the 1.6 and not the 1.3 for sure .

As I mentioned earlier with regard to suspension or steering feedback or engine performance , we need to take cars below 12-15 lakhs under consideration.

Yes, I am trying to get the suspension issue resolved . If you go through my previous posts I have been looking up at suspension parts of the S-cross from other countries.

The max legal speed of 100km/hr is ambiguous again . For a santro ,nano , alto , it definitely is not safe . Especially with cars that still have tubes in the tyres . So it all boils down to what car , road , traffic , visibility ,response time and brakes .
Being a 1.3 s cross owner, I can chip in with a few comments
I had driven the 1.6 and 1.3 quite extensively before buying. At the initial stage when the prices were soaring high, none of the "enthusiasts" including me was not ready to shell out 3.5 L+ for the addictive torque or the performance. Once the price dropped 1.6s began to appear in forums and were praised for its superior performance.

At the moment a person looking for a 12-15L car can choose the S cross over the creta sx and duster RXZ110 (Not the AWD) for highway runs.

I am a person who wanted to sell off the 1.3 and buy a 1.6 when the prices dropped, but after some test drives, was not convinced about it. The 1.6 is very good, but not good enough for a swap from the 1.3 and lose 5 big ones from the pocket in the process. The 1.6 is a sleeper car and can turn into a rocket in the sweet zone. Trust me even the remapped 1.3 feels out of control in those twisties when the rpm is >2k rpm. S cross does feel a bit lumpy on the curves and donot gve that confidence compared to say a polo, swift or a jetta.

Some day I would like to time the remapped 1.3 (0-100) and compare with the 1.6. Roads here donot give ample opportunity to use the potential of turbo diesels like these. You have to shift incessantly to keep it in the turbo zone.

I still crave for the 1.6, but the remapped 1.3 is here to stay. It is not powerful as the creta or duster, but can negotiate bad roads, gives good FE, has more than adequate space for 4 adults, has a good AC and most imporantly gives a Maruti "peace of mind". I would have loved 6 airbags and a better looking front end, but at the end of the day, I feel it is safer than a baleno or a breeza.

I would love to consider a 1.6 as an upgrade may be three years down the line, but it is highly likely that Maruti would discontinue it and kill off a VFM performance option. I would be completing one year of hippo ownership on Aug 28th. Every thing will depend on the price that True value would quote for the one year old. If it is too low, he ll stay with me for a few more years (3-5 years)

May be a 1.8TSI sometime in future or a 2.0L VAG, if I can afford the car and service then. More over my left leg is getting those knee aches. A dual clutch perhaps...

Last edited by sandygordon : 16th August 2016 at 22:29.
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Old 16th August 2016, 22:31   #5434
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Originally Posted by IshaanIan View Post
I believe it is widely accepted that the 1.6 DDiS 320 is not the most tractable of motors out there. No one is arguing otherwise and there is thus no point in concluding so. What Dr.Naren points out however, is interesting. While the motor might produce significantly less torque post peak delivery, it is still producing more than its competition. Therefore, when someone says that post 100kph their S-Cross takes the same time to accelerate as their Punto 1.3, I have no qualms in calling BS; either that person is not experienced enough to distinguish between outright acceleration and in-gear acceleration, or they are allowing the psychological effect of the moody torque delivery, to get in the way of the actual truth.

Very true it is not as tractable. However what you really mean is that it is low-high-still higher than most. Outright acceleration is still a strength.

Time it and get back to us please

Most used rev-band for Uber drivers maybe A competent driver will be flexible and find the right rev-band depending on the drivetrain to suit his/her driving style
OK .. let me try and put it in a much simpler way . What you are arguing is about some thing theoretical . Not a very practical method . When we talk of acceleration assumed factors are that we are driving on real roads , with real traffic . We are not even talking of race track where we have corners and it is imperative to drop a couple of gears at each turn .

What i am talking about is a highway with traffic , where to accelerate from 120+ KM/hr takes times and in between that time , you got to overtake a few trucks , buses , cars , motorcycles . Sometimes , you have vehicles plying on the wrong lanes , in which case you either have to honk , or slow down . Then you have illogical speed breakers on National highways , check posts etc .By the time you accelerate from 120+ most probably there might be reasons where you might have to brake and again start from say 30-40 Km/hr . I hope you understand the scenario . We are not talking about a road which is a straight line , with no other traffic . We are talking real roads and trust me , I have over a lakh on each of the vehicles that I own apart from the S-cross and the Wagon R which are both relatively new .
Why the comparison with the punto is that even though the 1.6 has more power the suspension , steering is a little better on the punto and the punto is less heavier . Sometimes ,the suspension helps one maintain higher speeds on uneven roads which does contribute greatly to average speeds.

With regard to your observation about 900-1700 being the most used rev-band for Uber drivers , I am sorry to point out a diesel car owner would then automatically qualify for being a Uber driver .

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Originally Posted by sandygordon View Post

At the moment a person looking for a 12-15L car can choose the S cross over the creta sx and duster RXZ110 (Not the AWD) for highway runs.
.........

May be a 1.8TSI sometime in future or a 2.0L VAG, if I can afford the car and service then. More over my left leg is getting those knee aches. A dual clutch perhaps...
I still do not understand why the comparison is done with either Creta or the Duster . The 1.3 would compete with the i20 , etios , linea which are all priced similarly . In fact I bought my S-cross comparing the pricing of the Linea with the S-cross . With a small stretch over the cost of a Linea I was able to get the 1.6 .

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Last edited by SDP : 17th August 2016 at 09:13. Reason: Merging back to back posts. Also high-speed references
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Old 16th August 2016, 22:48   #5435
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross : Official Review

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What i am talking about is a highway with traffic , where to accelerate from 120+ KM/hr takes times and in between that time , you got to overtake a few trucks , buses , cars , motorcycles . Sometimes , you have vehicles plying on the wrong lanes , in which case you either have to honk , or slow down . Then you have illogical speed breakers on National highways , check posts etc .By the time you accelerate from 120+ most probably there might be reasons where you might have to brake and again start from say 30-40 Km/hr . I hope you understand the scenario
Why would someone try to accelerate to those speeds in this scenario? Mid town madness??

What scenario you have mentioned is like driving in city traffic. You were taking about acceleration above 100 KMPH. I would have never guessed that you thought about this in a highway with this kind of traffic.

Let me conclude

1. 1.3 S-Cross feels better to drive in city, thanks to less turbo lag and lighter clutch.

2. 1.6 is a torque monster on highways. Make sure you are in turbo zone, just tap the pedal and 1.6 would never disappoint you.

3. 1.6 has longer gear ratios which affects outright performance if compared to Creta. Creta is around a second faster than S-Cross 1.6 in 0-100 timing.

4. 1.6 S-Cross has lot of potential post remap. I can't imagine what would she turn into by holding the peak torque for longer revv band post remap .

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Originally Posted by greatmana2000 View Post
I still do not understand why the comparision is done with either Creta or the Duster . The 1.3 would compete with the i20 , etios , linea which are all priced similarly . In fact I bought my S-cross comparing the pricing of the Linea with the S-cross . With a small stretch over the cost of a linea I was able to get the 1.6 .
I do not understand why to compare S-Cross with Etios? Usually, we compare cars in same segment. Some guys would do price wise comparison between cars from different segment. There is nothing wrong to compare 1.3 S-Cross with Duster/Creta. Remember Duster has 85 ps engine and Creta has 90 ps engine too. Why can't someone compare S-Cross 1.3 vs Duster 85 vs Creta 1.4?

Last edited by SDP : 17th August 2016 at 09:15. Reason: Edited high-speed references
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Old 16th August 2016, 22:54   #5436
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross : Official Review

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Originally Posted by greatmana2000 View Post
I still do not understand why the comparision is done with either Creta or the Duster . The 1.3 would compete with the i20 , etios , linea which are all priced similarly . In fact I bought my S-cross comparing the pricing of the Linea with the S-cross . With a small stretch over the cost of a linea I was able to get the 1.6 .
It may not be making sense for you to compare S-Cross with Creta / Duster. But, that may make sense for many others.

Duster and Creta are not in a totally different league vis a vis S-Cross, which makes the comparison meaningless.
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Old 16th August 2016, 23:02   #5437
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OK .. let me try and put it in a much simpler way . What you are arguing is about some thing theoretical . Not a very practical method . When we talk of acceleration assumed factors are that we are driving on real roads , with real traffic . We are not even talking of race track where we have corners and it is imperative to drop a couple of gears at each turn .

What i am talking about is a highway with traffic , where to accelerate from 120+ KM/hr takes times and in between that time , you got to overtake a few trucks , buses , cars , motorcycles . Sometimes , you have vehicles plying on the wrong lanes , in which case you either have to honk , or slow down . Then you have illogical speed breakers on National highways , check posts etc .By the time you accelerate from 120+ most probably there might be reasons where you might have to brake and again start from say 30-40 Km/hr . I hope you understand the scenario . We are not talking about a road which is a straight line , with no other traffic . We are talking real roads
Come on man! Seriously!? After talking about power delivery, you go on to say it accelerates to illegal speeds just as a Punto 1.3 would and then once you are caught out on that you're going to add all this? I have driven quite a lot as well although I am not endorsing it, we both know of plenty of highways where such speeds are easily possible. Don't tell me what I am talking about is theoretical and that what you are talking about is practical mate If you are going to make such acceleration attempts only when you have speed breakers and so much traffic that you might drop down to 30-40, then I think you are being the impractical one here.

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Originally Posted by greatmana2000 View Post
With regard to your observation about 900-1700 being the most used rev-band for Uber drivers , I am sorry to point out a diesel car owner would then automatically qualify for being a Uber driver .
If you honestly think that a "competent" driver will stick to that rev band in any diesel car, then I'm sorry. I just don't agree. Why not learn to feather the throttle at a higher rpm so that you get the same fuel economy but also have the torque needed when push comes to shove? If you flutter about in that rev range, then what is the point of buying a turbo diesel?

Last edited by SDP : 17th August 2016 at 09:17. Reason: Edited high-speed references
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Old 16th August 2016, 23:11   #5438
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Originally Posted by Dr.Naren View Post
Why would someone try to accelerate to those speeds in this scenario? Mid town madness??

What scenario you have mentioned is like driving in city traffic. You were taking about acceleration above 100 KMPH. I would have never guessed that you thought about this in a highway with this kind of traffic.

....

Bangalore -chennai chittor route is like city traffic even in the night . Vizag to Chennai is similar even in the nights . These are the roads that I frequent mostly . 15 years back I used to do Bangalore -Chennai on a maruti 800 within 4 hrs . (electronic city to Poonamallee ) . From Nellore to Chennai I used to do in 2 .15 hrs flat when the Highway was just done . Today , even with a BMW 530D it is not possible to do the same timings at any point of time in the day or night . To make sure you are in the turbo zone requires effort and that is what I am trying to point out . The 1.6 might be a paper rocket but to keep the rocket fired one needs to work on it a lot .
The Creta is faster even with lesser torque is because the torque is not produced narrowly . It is spread over a wider range .

To do a remap I believe that the ECM needs to be opened up which is not an option for a brand new car costing north of 12 lakhs . Further more , I really doubt how effective the Torque would be spread over a wider RPM range . Then there is the torque steer to deal with .

As pointed out earlier the timing does not matter , but to keep the car in the power band your left leg is constantly moving up and down like a tailor and your left hand has to keep the cradle rocking to make the baby float .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sree73 View Post
It may not be making sense for you to compare S-Cross with Creta / Duster. But, that may make sense for many others.

Duster and Creta are not in a totally different league vis a vis S-Cross, which makes the comparison meaningless.
Sorry ! you got it wrong . What I meant was why is the comparison limited to just Creta and Duster when a whole lot of other cars with similar pricing can be compared with . Rather than strictly compare cars with similar body styles , the comparison can include cars priced similarly as well . It would represent a real world scenario of a typical car buyer /owner .

Last edited by SDP : 17th August 2016 at 09:20. Reason: Edited high-speed reference and snipped quoted post
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Old 16th August 2016, 23:23   #5439
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross : Official Review

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Originally Posted by greatmana2000 View Post
To make sure you are in the turbo zone requires effort and that is what I am trying to point out . The 1.6 might be a paper rocket but to keep the rocket fired one needs to work on it a lot .
The Creta is faster even with lesser torque is because the torque is not produced narrowly . It is spread over a wider range .

To do a remap I believe that the ECM needs to be opened up which is not an option for a brand new car costing north of 12 lakhs . Further more , I really doubt how effective the Torque would be spread over a wider RPM range . Then there is the torque steer to deal with .

As pointed out earlier the timing does not matter , but to keep the car in the power band your left leg is constantly moving up and down like a tailor and your left hand has to keep the cradle rocking to make the baby float .
I don't understand what's so difficult to maintain the car in turbo zone? Some cars with nil turbo lag are better to drive in city traffic. Anyways, I can't change your point of view if you think 1.6 is a paper rocket.

You are making it sound like it's real pain to live with 1.6. I am a proud owner of 1.6 S-Cross and many other guys out here too enjoy their 1.6.

Yes, ECU has to be opened to remap 1.6 S-Cross. OBD protocol is not yet out for this car. Remap is a subjective decision and I do know about the risk involved. But I am very sure a good remap for 1.6 S-Cross would never ever disappoint me .
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Old 16th August 2016, 23:25   #5440
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Justice done to the S-Cross

That's some proper running. Is it in the city or highway? Was interested to know if it was in the city how is your left leg feeling. I didn't find the 1.6 clutch to be that hard but similar to my SX4. But sometimes I feel that too isn't comfortable for extended distances in traffic. The 1.3 on the other hand has a feather light clutch.
I live in South Delhi and occasionally goes to my office in Gurgaon in SCross. But real fun of my life is weekend when I always travel to my homeland Meerut 90 Kms far and my village 150 kms in lovely Meerut Roorkee toll road. Beleive me Scross changes the way i sleep now, i always get up early at around 4 Am just to enjoy its ride in empty roads. Clutch is hard in traffic but super fun in highway. I already travelled Jodhpur, Udaipur, Dhramshala (2 times),Dhanaulti, Tehri Dam etc hence high mileage.
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Old 16th August 2016, 23:25   #5441
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Originally Posted by IshaanIan View Post
Come on man! Seriously!? After talking about power delivery, you go on to say it accelerates till 160 just as a Punto 1.3 would and then once you are caught out on that you're going to add all this? I have driven quite a lot as well although I am not endorsing it, we both know of plenty of highways where such speeds are easily possible. Don't tell me what I am talking about is theoretical and that what you are talking about is practical mate If you are going to make such acceleration attempts only when you have speed breakers and so much traffic that you might drop down to 30-40, then I think you are being the impractical one here.



If you honestly think that a "competent" driver will stick to that rev band in any diesel car, then I'm sorry. I just don't agree. Why not learn to feather the throttle at a higher rpm so that you get the same fuel economy but also have the torque needed when push comes to shove? If you flutter about in that rev range, then what is the point of buying a turbo diesel?

Probably , you have not read my other posts or you have not yet got the essence of the discussion . I was very clear when I said that it is agony to wait for the car to accelerate beyond 120KM /Hr .I found it as similar to driving a punto from 120km/hr . I never said it takes the same time for a 1.6 and a punto 1.3 . If you think I am comparing timings then you are wrong . Plus this is a discussion and there is "nothing " to be "caught" out . I am not professing that I am the source of technical knowledge . I am listing out my points of observation . Thats all .

A diesel car owner would ideally try to maintain his /her engine power band . A diesel does not need to be revved or its throttle "feathered " to be driven . If you think Uber drivers drive only in that RPM range and they do not touch higher RPM then I am probably sure , you did not understand what the whole discussion is about .

Last edited by SDP : 17th August 2016 at 09:24. Reason: Edited high-speed references
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Old 16th August 2016, 23:32   #5442
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross : Official Review

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Originally Posted by greatmana2000 View Post
Bangalore -chennai chittor route is like city traffic even in the night . Vizag to Chennai is similar even in the nights . These are the roads that I frequent mostly .
Are you telling us that you need to accelerate from 120 onwards in city like traffic? If yes, then you are in wrong place. I don't think doing 120 is sensible thing to do in such scenario, leave alone anything higher.

Last edited by SDP : 17th August 2016 at 09:24. Reason: Edited high-speed references
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Old 16th August 2016, 23:39   #5443
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Originally Posted by Dr.Naren View Post

Let me conclude

1. 1.3 S-Cross feels better to drive in city, thanks to less turbo lag and lighter clutch.

2. 1.6 is a torque monster on highways. Make sure you are in turbo zone, just tap the pedal and 1.6 would never disappoint you.

3. 1.6 has longer gear ratios which affects outright performance if compared to Creta. Creta is around a second faster than S-Cross 1.6 in 0-100 timing.

4. 1.6 S-Cross has lot of potential post remap. I can't imagine what would she turn into by holding the peak torque for longer revv band post remap .
Buddy ! You missed three points.

1. 1.6 has turbo lag, but the driver can adopt him/herself over kilometres/time.
2. 1.6 is fun to drive. I exceedingly met all MY acceleration requirements.
3. 1.6 is fun to drive.

(Forgive me, I am not technical and have no knowledge on torque, power band, remap and so on)
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Old 16th August 2016, 23:39   #5444
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I don't understand what's so difficult to maintain the car in turbo zone? Some cars with nil turbo lag are better to drive in city traffic. Anyways, I can't change your point of view if you think 1.6 is a paper rocket.

You are making it sound like it's real pain to live with 1.6. I am a proud owner of 1.6 S-Cross and many other guys out here too enjoy their 1.6.

Yes, ECU has to be opened to remap 1.6 S-Cross. OBD protocol is not yet out for this car. Remap is a subjective decision and I do know about the risk involved. But I am very sure a good remap for 1.6 S-Cross would never ever disappoint me .
On single lane roads with heavy on coming traffic and twisted roads it is not an easy job .
The s-cross is the most satisfying car if one happens to be on sparse traffic highways and one who does constant speed and the road is good . The air conditioning is good , the braking is good. Stops without any fuss and the ABS is well calibrated . The build quality is certainly better than most maruti products . The integrated AVN is good . The rear seat folds flat and one can even stretch and sleep on pit stops .

I do not know about the remap but most of us would not touch the ECM . It is way too complicated . My friend had his lodgy submerged in the floods and it took about 6 months for the ECM /BCM , Key etc to be replaced . It might have been an unexpected demand for spares due to flood last year , but then I would be very careful with the ECM .

Last edited by SDP : 17th August 2016 at 09:26. Reason: Edited high-speed references
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Old 16th August 2016, 23:45   #5445
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross : Official Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by greatmana2000 View Post
Probably , you have not read my other posts or you have not yet got the essence of the discussion . I was very clear when I said that it is agony to wait for the car to hit accelerate beyond 120KM /Hr .I found it as similar to driving a punto. I never said it takes the same time for a 1.6 and a punto 1.3 .
Why bother mentioning the word "accelerate" if you are not interested in the time factor at all?

Quote:
Originally Posted by greatmana2000 View Post
A diesel car owner would ideally try to maintain his /her engine power band . A diesel does not need to be revved or its throttle "feathered " to be driven . If you think Uber drivers drive only in that RPM range and they do not touch higher RPM then I am probably sure , you did not understand what the whole discussion is about .
There is no steadfast rule as to which "competent" drivers need to adhere to xyz rev-band. I just felt you were out of line for saying so. If my comments on feathering the throttle don't make sense to you after all those lakhs of kilometers you put in with all your cars, then I'm sorry but you need to learn a few new tricks. Experience does not always default knowledge

Last edited by SDP : 17th August 2016 at 09:29. Reason: Edited high-speed references
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