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Old 1st September 2016, 21:28   #5581
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross : Official Review

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Originally Posted by Sip View Post
Let's look at different speeds / gears with right foot off accelerator -

3 rd gear - 20 kmph
4th gear - 30 kmph
5th gear - 40 Kmph
I second that. Yes, car pulls at these speeds when you are gentle with throttle. But if you do pedal to metal, you will find lack of response and people start complaining about turbo lag. There is something called drivers wish map in ECU. It's like a table with Engine RPM, Accelerator pedal position and Injection quantity of fuel. At 100 percent throttle IQ is maximum and when you WOT at these low speeds, ECU will request high IQ but engine won't be able to deliver it and hence lack of response.

Last edited by Dr.Naren : 1st September 2016 at 21:30.
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Old 2nd September 2016, 09:13   #5582
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross : Official Review

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Originally Posted by Sip View Post
Torque and power graph posted on this review by fellow BHPians confirms starting torque (at idle RPM) of 175 Nm and upward available till 1750 RPMs.
Guys, we should never trust manufacturer posted torque curves - they do not tell anything about turbo lag. They are done on a standalone engine testbench, where the RPMs are allowed to increase very gradually by loading up the engine, hence negating the presence of turbo lag.

In the real world, things are quite different. Take a look at this (optimistic) torque curve measured by NASA.
It's optimistic because it's only looking at the max power that can be generated assuming all the oxygen in the air can be converted completely to power.
https://www.facebook.com/NorthernAut...type=3&theater

It shows that you only have 125NM actually generated at 1500RPM in 3rd gear. And even lower at idle, a far cry from 175NM that you quoted, buddy.
That's not too great to lug 1275 kg around, hence the perception of lag. Having a peak torque of over 300NM, when compared to the low figure of 125NM at lower RPMs doesn't help either.

That lag is real - probably just that it makes you salivate more when you actually hit the turbo zone
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Old 2nd September 2016, 12:28   #5583
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross : Official Review

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Guys, we should never trust manufacturer posted torque curves - they do not tell anything about turbo lag. They are done on a standalone engine testbench, where the RPMs are allowed to increase very gradually by loading up the engine, hence negating the presence of turbo lag.

In the real world, things are quite different. Take a look at this (optimistic) torque curve measured by NASA.
It's optimistic because it's only looking at the max power that can be generated assuming all the oxygen in the air can be converted completely to power.
https://www.facebook.com/NorthernAut...type=3&theater

It shows that you only have 125NM actually generated at 1500RPM in 3rd gear. And even lower at idle, a far cry from 175NM that you quoted, buddy.
That's not too great to lug 1275 kg around, hence the perception of lag. Having a peak torque of over 300NM, when compared to the low figure of 125NM at lower RPMs doesn't help either.

That lag is real - probably just that it makes you salivate more when you actually hit the turbo zone
I have also read that fb post few weeks back and you can see my comment there. They have used some data from OBD reading. I doubt it's accurate because that graph shows peak power as 135 BHP (15 hp more than stock). Only a proper dyno test would give the real picture.

Yes there is turbo lag in 1.6 S-Cross like many other diesel cars (except Figo, Amaze etc). But it is overhyped according to me. I have not found any difficulty driving in city traffic. Only issue I have faced is difficulty to climb steep slopes if you get stuck halfway.

Last edited by Dr.Naren : 2nd September 2016 at 12:33.
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Old 2nd September 2016, 12:40   #5584
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross : Official Review

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That lag is real - probably just that it makes you salivate more when you actually hit the turbo zone
Yes. The lag is real. I agree.

But the question is how bad is it? Is it unmanageable? The answer is - it depends on the driver.

If you are in the 3rd gear and the engine goes below 1000 rpm. There is a quick gap the driver wants to fill and he / she floors the accelerator. The turbo lag will be HUGE. The expected torque is not supplied and the engine takes a little time to cross 1500 rpm, where there is a lot of torque supplied and there is a push back into the seat.

But if the driver chooses to give a more gradual accelerator input - there will be not much lag perceived. There will be a constant rise in rpm and torque will be supplied proportionally and the push back into seat will be much lesser.

From my experience, I have been through both the situations and have now adapted to the car. I know when I should down shift and when I need not. Unless there is a VERY BAD traffic, I have never felt any pain or discomfort on my left ankle or knee. in fact, in my long journeys, my left leg is far more relaxed than my right

Another point I strongly disagree with some of the earlier posts that the torque tapers off after 1750 rpm. Well, I have driven the car in legal and illegal speed limits - not that I advocate that. There is absolutely NO dearth of power / torque even after the car crosses 120 kph in the 5th or 6th gear. The graph might show a fall in torque. But that does not hamper the drive in any perceivable manner.

This turbo lag can be equated to the rubber band effect of the CVTs. If the driver can understand and adapt to the nature of engine and gearbox, the lag / rubber band effect can be minimized. This is my opinion after driving the S-Cross 1.6 for 10k+ kms.

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Old 2nd September 2016, 12:44   #5585
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross : Official Review

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Originally Posted by Dr.Naren View Post
I have also read that fb post few weeks back and you can see my comment there. They have used some data from OBD reading. I doubt it's accurate because that graph shows peak power as 135 BHP (15 hp more than stock). Only a proper dyno test would give the real picture.
I'm with you when I say that the numbers on the graph are not entirely trustworthy - but the trend of when the torque comes in can not be doubted.

Since you have a 1.6, may I suggest using the PerfExpert android application to measure the torque curve yourself? I've been using it for a long time and have found it to be incredibly accurate and consistent.

Here's what I measured for the Ciaz - you can see there is significant lag and the torque peak is actually at 3000 RPM rather than the company claimed 1750RPM

BTW before anyone points out the higher numbers as compared to the ones RD measured on their dyno, keep in mind that I measured this in Delhi, where we have ~15% higher ambient air pressures, which help performance. Also these figures are estimated at the engine, unlike RD's numbers, which were at the wheels.
Attached Thumbnails
Maruti S-Cross : Official Review-ciaz-dyno.png  

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Old 2nd September 2016, 13:26   #5586
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross : Official Review

A certain amount of lag will be there with all engines - small or big, diesel or petrol. The only solution is to drive in correct gear, and down-shift 1 or 2 gears when sudden accelaration is needed. If you are so lazy to change gears, the car also will show its laziness in accelaration as lag. Also, the lag will not be an issue for sedate drivers. In this era of increased fuel prices and pollution, sedate driving is the way to go.

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Old 2nd September 2016, 15:19   #5587
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross : Official Review

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Originally Posted by kpzen View Post
Air filter Rs 910 - Made in Romania.
I just checked air filter today to see how dirty it was. It was pretty clean. Also it's Mahle brand (Made in India). My car is April 2016 manufactured and I guess Maruti has localised the air filter now.

Last edited by Dr.Naren : 2nd September 2016 at 15:24.
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Old 2nd September 2016, 15:22   #5588
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross : Official Review

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Originally Posted by romeomidhun View Post
A certain amount of lag will be there with all engines - small or big, diesel or petrol.
Yes, but that doesn't mean that all cars have the same amount of lag, and nor does it mean that lag should be acceptable for everybody, just because it's hard to design cars with low lag and high performance.

Electric cars are the holy grail for lag, and combustion engines are always trying to find new ways of matching them. Twin scroll turbos, Twin turbos, VGTs, Low inertia turbos, ITBs etc are all ways to combat lag. Some engines are just more successful in hiding lag than others.
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Old 2nd September 2016, 18:23   #5589
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross : Official Review

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Originally Posted by d3mon View Post

Since you have a 1.6, may I suggest using the PerfExpert android application to measure the torque curve yourself? I've been using it for a long time and have found it to be incredibly accurate and consistent.
I just checked the app in play store and it costs 650 Rs. I was thinking it would derive the graph based on OBD reading. But I was surprised to see that they derive the figure based on accelerometer sensor of phone.

According to Torque Pro OBD reading :

Power and Torque at wheels : 106 BHP and 281 NM

This is around 12 percent less than quoted figures and looks reliable. Is there any method to log the graph?

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/offici...ml#post4039383 (Maruti S-Cross : Official Review)

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Old 2nd September 2016, 20:37   #5590
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross : Official Review

Just had a back to back test drive of Scross 1.3 and 1.6 in traffic and open roads. Felt both 1.3 and 1.6 gearbox movements to be similar, but, there is a difference in clutch of 1.3 and 1.6.

1.6 clutch has more travel than 1.3. Hence if my foot is on top of 1.6 clutch, my foot will be at a higher angle than that of 1.3 resulting in foot pain.

Measured the position of the clutch for both. For the 1.6 clutch to be at same position of 1.3, I need to put my foot and press the clutch always.

But, the adrenaline rush of 1.6 when accelerator is pushed cannot be forgotten.

Finally in a dilemma on what to go for again between 1.3 and 1.6. 1.3 has mileage advantage, resale advantage (probably) and clutch advantage. 1.6 has the extraordinary torque advantage.

Is there a way to reduce foot pain in 1.6 because of its angle when compared to clutch of 1.3?

This will be my 1st diesel and manual vehicle. Have been driving AT for the last 6.5 years. Planning to use this mainly for highway use as Micra CVT will be used now for in city travel. Also, in future, if Micra CVT is sold, this may be used for city travel with bigger vehicle (innova-may be) for highway use. Budget is under 15L and prefer diesel AT under 15L. But since not much are present under 15L except sedans (not interested as parents having issues with ingress and egress), short listed S-Cross 1.3/1.6 for its build and features.

Thanks in advance.

Last edited by vvrchandra : 2nd September 2016 at 21:02.
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Old 2nd September 2016, 20:59   #5591
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross : Official Review

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Originally Posted by vvrchandra View Post
...

This will be my 1st diesel and manual vehicle. Have been driving AT for the last 7 years. Planning to use this mainly for highway use as Micra CVT will be used now for in city travel. Also, in future, if Micra CVT is sold, this may be used for city travel with innova(may be) for highway use.

Thanks in advance.
The main issue with 1.6 is the huge lag and heavy clutch with long play.

If only for highways that too without hills and ghats, go for 1.6 eyes closed, as these issues won't matter much. And highway is the only place where you will be enjoying the 320NM torque.

But if you plan to use it for city in future and considering your first diesel and manual, trust me the 2 negatives will bother you a lot.

Take a long test drive (of more than 30 minutes) in traffic situation where the speed would be varying between 0-40 kmph.

The constant gear shifts to keep the car in turbo zone (as many members have been suggesting here) with the heavy clutch will give you a hang of what I am talking about.
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Old 2nd September 2016, 21:45   #5592
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross : Official Review

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Originally Posted by vvrchandra View Post
Budget is under 15L and prefer diesel AT under 15L.
Other than the s-cross which is brilliant in its own right, coming from an AT to a manual with 6 gears and city traffic is very difficult to adapt to. Please be very sure of your choice of vehicle.
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Old 2nd September 2016, 22:23   #5593
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross : Official Review

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Originally Posted by vvrchandra View Post
Finally in a dilemma on what to go for again between 1.3 and 1.6. 1.3 has mileage advantage, resale advantage (probably) and clutch advantage. 1.6 has the extraordinary torque advantage.
I can understand your dilemma. I always feel that each one of us must have one car for city use (compact, good maneuverability, good low end torque, ease of driving etc) and another one for highway use (good road presence, ample space, fantastic top end etc), but not all of us are so lucky to have two separate cars. I think you are one of those lucky ones who can have two cars, one for city use and another one for highway trips. Now you have to decide whether the S-Cross will be seeing the city roads more often or it will see its legs stretched on open highways most of the time. Accordingly you can make the choice, 1.3 if it is primarily meant for city use and 1.6 if otherwise.

Quote:
Is there a way to reduce foot pain in 1.6 because of its angle when compared to clutch of 1.3?
When you start driving a new car, it takes some time to adjust to its ergonomics. Even if the 1.6 results in pain initially you will get used to it over a period of time.

Quote:
This will be my 1st diesel and manual vehicle. Have been driving AT for the last 6.5 years. Planning to use this mainly for highway use as Micra CVT will be used now for in city travel.
Are you kidding me ? You are shifting from a petrol AT to a diesel manual, these are like two worlds apart. It will be like asking the Polar bear to live in African desert. I swear you would feel no less than like a fish out of water.

Quote:
Also, in future, if Micra CVT is sold, this may be used for city travel with bigger vehicle (innova-may be) for highway use. Budget is under 15L and prefer diesel AT under 15L. But since not much are present under 15L except sedans (not interested as parents having issues with ingress and egress), short listed S-Cross 1.3/1.6 for its build and features. Thanks in advance.
Seems you have not considered the Duster AMT or the Scorpio AT or even the Creta AT petrol. These are not sedans and more or less would be in your budget. Why don't you give a try to each one of these?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ank.nsit View Post
The main issue with 1.6 is the huge lag and heavy clutch with long play.

If only for highways that too without hills and ghats, go for 1.6 eyes closed, as these issues won't matter much. And highway is the only place where you will be enjoying the 320NM torque.

But if you plan to use it for city in future and considering your first diesel and manual, trust me the 2 negatives will bother you a lot.

Take a long test drive (of more than 30 minutes) in traffic situation where the speed would be varying between 0-40 kmph.

The constant gear shifts to keep the car in turbo zone (as many members have been suggesting here) with the heavy clutch will give you a hang of what I am talking about.
Spot on ank.nsit, , I agree with each & every word that you have mentioned above
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Old 2nd September 2016, 22:31   #5594
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Originally Posted by AutoIndian View Post
..Seems you have not considered the Duster AMT or the Scorpio AT or even the Creta AT petrol. These are not sedans and more or less would be in your budget. Why don't you give a try to each one of these?
..
Thanks for the quick response.

I've taken the test drive of Duster AMT. Suspension is very good, but, did not like its interiors.It has the diesel + AT advantage. But 16L for its interiors? Initial budget is 12L, increased to 15L. but, couldn't find diesel+AT under 15L except sedans. Not interested in sedans as they have low seating.

Haven't considered Scorpio AT.

Creta AT (petrol and diesel) -- Diesel at 17.5, felt its over priced and doesn't have much features as well. Similarly Petrol mileage is poor.

Even considered BRV CVT. Did not like its interiors and no features as well. Am looking for one that has Cruise control as well.

Last edited by vvrchandra : 2nd September 2016 at 22:48.
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Old 2nd September 2016, 22:41   #5595
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross : Official Review

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Originally Posted by vvrchandra View Post
Am looking for one that has Cruise control.
There you go, if Cruise control is what you are looking for, then I am assuming that you are looking forward to your new car to be a highway cruiser rather than city commuter car, because no one in this world would buy a car with cruise control primarily for city use. In that case I would say go ahead with the 1.6, but please, please , don't use it as a city beater car (with that cruise control in hand) else you would never be able to forgive yourself for the choice you made.

Edit: That said, I would like to give a friendly advice. You should not buy a car just for one or two features. You are going to buy a complete package, so look at it more holistically. From the last couple of posts I can make out that your heart is screaming "S-Cross", then look not further. You would eventually learn to live with its lacunae.

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