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Old 17th April 2017, 08:59   #2086
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Default Re: Ford Endeavour : Official Review

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Now I am sure the guys at RD have done their research before putting the product in the market. I will speak to Mr. Karthik in detail tomorrow before taking a final decision.
I used to have a Race Chip Ultimate on one of BMW cars. It worked fine before I recently took a spirited trip to Ahmedabad on Holi holiday, covering distance at an average of 130 Kmph ( you can guess top speeds) And then next day my car was behaving little differently when it was stopped, say at a red light or toll, little hard to explain, it felt as if someone was trying to push it & was definitely missing not stalling though. I took it to BMW dealership on return and there was a fault registered which pointed to rail pressure. I understand all such devices work on the same principal as they try to fool ECU and increase Rail pressure( they use different terms like optimisation and all that) I got the chip bypassed & fault removed and now it's fine. Won't suggest you go for the chip on this already powerful truck.

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Since I am already done with booking and delivery date is 15-May how to proceed now. Can I cancel or delay my delivery date?
I will be skeptical of this notion of Car prices getting cheaper, hope you have listened to FM speech when he compares Relaxo with BMW. In few states, unlike Delhi, VAT is higher than 12,5 % so perhaps VAT component will get reduced at those places but these State revenue guys are cunning, they will surely find out some way, easiest will be to increase Road Tax further to cover differential as RTO is a state subject and won't be under GST preview.

Last edited by Turbanator : 17th April 2017 at 09:04.
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Old 17th April 2017, 09:46   #2087
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Default Re: Ford Endeavour : Official Review

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Originally Posted by roby_dk View Post
I remember in one of the thread someone pointed around 2-3% hike due to GST as companies will also hike prices at the same time to minimize the GST effect.
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Originally Posted by Turbanator View Post
....these State revenue guys are cunning, they will surely find out some way, easiest will be to increase Road Tax further to cover differential as RTO is a state subject and won't be under GST preview.
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What the Turbanator says is true.

There is no way governments will let go of easy income. 43%

So there is no way that the prices of "luxury goods" like cars will come down with GST. For all you know, they might find a way to increase the prices.
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Old 17th April 2017, 10:02   #2088
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Default Re: Ford Endeavour : Official Review

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Originally Posted by roby_dk View Post
Since I am already done with booking and delivery date is 15-May how to proceed now. Can I cancel or delay my delivery date?
If the gst figures comes in between my delivery time will I get the benefit?
What will happen with my approved loan amount for how much time I can hold that?
Yes ,delivery date can be delayed and and the price prevailing at the time of delivery is only valid (up or down)

If I am not wrong GST council meeting is on may 18th which is not too far.

All tax percentages will be out that day.
Expected price reduction is 13 percent on ex factory for Automobiles

(This is the best case scenario but if our crooks in the industry find a loophole they might not pass on any benefit to the customer)

You can delay the disbursement of the loan as it is already approved.(no need to apply again after 2 months)

All the best

Last edited by ecosport rules : 17th April 2017 at 10:07.
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Old 17th April 2017, 11:26   #2089
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Default Re: Ford Endeavour : Official Review

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Originally Posted by ecosport rules View Post
Yes ,delivery date can be delayed and and the price prevailing at the time of delivery is only valid (up or down)

If I am not wrong GST council meeting is on may 18th which is not too far.
Thanks for the information. I have not disclosed this GST info to my family yet and will wait for few more days. In case there is significant difference I will go for delay option.

BTW what is the timeline before I can delay or cancel my booking? I have been given 2 documents from dealer to be handed over to banker for further process. What is the timeline to submit them I mean Can I hold them for few more days?

I am totally unaware of loan process. I don't even have any document what is the interest rate, period and amount all communications with banker were on phone. I just have one message on my wife's mobile that your loan is approved with some loan number mentioned. Can I ask them for the loan documents or it will be provided once I hand over the proforma to them?

Last edited by roby_dk : 17th April 2017 at 11:35.
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Old 17th April 2017, 11:39   #2090
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Default Re: Ford Endeavour : Official Review

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Originally Posted by ecosport rules View Post
Thule wing bar edge 9595 is best option but expensive(30K)

The other model for 15 K is wing bar 961 (check with Thule)
Protrudes a bit,attaching a picture for your reference

Regarding Racedynamics,if it is really safe Ford should ideally allow it without altering warranty.
Please write to Ford and also consult your service centre before deciding as you are at the risk of losing warranty on an expensive product
Thanks for the info on the wing bar 961. I don't mind if it protrudes a bit. I just want functionality.

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Originally Posted by Czarcarsm View Post

Just having the bar alone does not help. You would need a luggage carrier. In my case, the luggage carrier is the box. Else you would need a platform and tie down any luggage. See picture below. The box set me back Rs 85k, but then it is much quieter, protects from rain and dust, no worries of luggage ejecting on a highway, no worries of it moving around, lastly does not kill performance or mileage. Yes, this is an expensive jack-fruit carrier, but this is what happens when an engineer goes crazy !

Depending on the vehicles roof rails, you need different attachment kits. See pic below.

On the ECU mod, please refer to one of my earlier post in a different thread. It should give an idea.

470 monsters at full flow will beat most anything on the road today. Why bring in 550 then, unless it is for mileage
The box looks fantastic on your car. However, the Thule box is too expensive for me, and I am going to use it may be once a year at the most. I was looking for something like this:

http://www.amazon.in/ATB-Carrier-Wea...of+cargo+racks

This requires a 'raised roof rail', by which I suppose they mean, a gap between the rail and the roof to pass the straps. How good are these bags? I can stow it away when not required. I suppose I can use the wing bars to secure these.

The platform carrier in one of the pics you have posted looks interesting. I would love something like that.

Really appreciate your detailed explanation on the tuning box. One of the reasons I was looking at the box was indeed an improved mileage.

After considering all your inputs, including Turbanator's, I think I will shelve the idea of the tuning box for the time being. I will wait for someone here who is brave enough to try it.

Last edited by SCORPION : 17th April 2017 at 11:45.
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Old 17th April 2017, 13:06   #2091
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Default Re: Ford Endeavour : Official Review

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Originally Posted by roby_dk View Post
Thanks for the information.

BTW what is the timeline before I can delay or cancel my booking? I have been given 2 documents from dealer to be handed over to banker for further process. What is the timeline to submit them I mean Can I hold them for few more days?

. Can I ask them for the loan documents or it will be provided once I hand over the proforma to them?
You can delay the booking/delivery indefinitely

You can get all details about loan from the bank and ask them to hold everything till they divulge information
They tend to take advantage if they know you are naive

Last edited by ecosport rules : 17th April 2017 at 13:08.
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Old 17th April 2017, 14:06   #2092
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Default Re: Ford Endeavour : Official Review

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Originally Posted by ecosport rules View Post
The dynamic 800 box looks awesome
Can it get into few basements with the box on?
Thanks, I have not tried basements with the box as it becomes tricky. The basement entrances typically have a dip or a hump. With long wheel base vehicles like Endeavour, the wheel may be outside that dip, hence the height judgement will not be correct. Check this picture for what i mean. Cross-bars alone should be ok, as it is about the height of a tall person.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCORPION View Post
The box looks fantastic on your car. However, the Thule box is too expensive for me, and I am going to use it may be once a year at the most. I was looking for something like this:

http://www.amazon.in/ATB-Carrier-Wea...of+cargo+racks

This requires a 'raised roof rail', by which I suppose they mean, a gap between the rail and the roof to pass the straps. How good are these bags? I can stow it away when not required. I suppose I can use the wing bars to secure these.
From the picture in Amazon, it appears the bag is resting directly on the roof, in Endeavour 3.2 that means moon roof glass. Moon roof is one of the strongest glass you see anywhere. But I am not sure I would rest the weight on it. Check with Thule dealer and see how their bag is mounted. They have a 'quest' series similar to this. I guess you would need another rail or a light platform underneath to rest the bag

Quote:
Really appreciate your detailed explanation on the tuning box. One of the reasons I was looking at the box was indeed an improved mileage.

After considering all your inputs, including Turbanator's, I think I will shelve the idea of the tuning box for the time being. I will wait for someone here who is brave enough to try it.
Most welcome. Team BHP has been a great source for me on anything automotive. I am glad to give back and earn some good karma.
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Old 17th April 2017, 14:16   #2093
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Default Re: Ford Endeavour : Official Review

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Originally Posted by roby_dk View Post
I have not disclosed this GST info to my family yet and will wait for few more days.
Please do not expect drastic change in price post GST. However there would be some change for sure and as suggested please wait. This is one of many reasons, car makers are increasing the price since last year. Finally they may pass on the increase.

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Originally Posted by roby_dk View Post
BTW what is the timeline before I can delay or cancel my booking?
FORD provides 100% refund on booking amount. You can cancel anytime before the actual delivery or generation of invoice against bank DO (Delivery order)

Quote:
Originally Posted by roby_dk View Post

I am totally unaware of loan process.
Please get the loan approved. Yes, you can go ahead and give all required document. After approval do not sign the loan agreement till

1. You decide to take the car
2. There is an agreement on final price. Please take the same in writing on paper (formal or informal)
3. Car is received at dealer and not when in transit.
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Old 17th April 2017, 15:28   #2094
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Originally Posted by Wanderers View Post
Please do not expect drastic change in price post GST.
If it will be < 50-60k I am ok as I planned delivery on my baby's 1st birthday so it will be a memorable moment for us. But if figures are beyond that say 1-2 L than definitely it is worth to wait.

Quote:
FORD provides 100% refund on booking amount.
Correct. Anyways car and model is final it is just the GST which has created confusion. If I have an easy delay option I don't need the cancellation.

Quote:
Please get the loan approved. Yes, you can go ahead and give all required document. After approval do not sign the loan agreement till

1. You decide to take the car
2. There is an agreement on final price. Please take the same in writing on paper (formal or informal)
3. Car is received at dealer and not when in transit.
Thank you so much this is what I was actually looking for. Since this is my first car I am sort of novice with the buying process + I do not have much interest in banking sector so want some basic knowledge from you guys.

I checked with my personal banker he also mentioned the same as you said. He told that loan interest rate may increase or decrease if I change the delivery dates as the quotes are valid for 15-20 days only.
On delaying the delivery date he told they do not have any problem with that and its simple process where re-approval will be done. The details like amount,interest rate,prepayment options etc. will be available just before signing the agreement say 10 days before delivery date.

I was not aware of the loan disbursement process and was quite confused but now it is clear to some extent.
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Old 17th April 2017, 16:09   #2095
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Default Re: Ford Endeavour : Official Review

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Originally Posted by roby_dk View Post
If it will be < 50-60k I am ok as I planned delivery on my baby's 1st birthday so it will be a memorable moment for us. But if figures are beyond that say 1-2 L than definitely it is worth to wait.

The difference in price will not be more than 1 lakh. Moreover it can be on higher side as well..
If you bargain well, you can still get the 3.2L 4X4 AT Titanium at March-2017 price as dealer do have inventory. You may have to compromise on color choice.

Thus it would be good idea to bring the car home on your baby's 1st birthday.

Incase you need contact detail of my Noida Dealer, do let me know. He is a senior guy and has much leverage over his company.
Your setting do not permit sending a PM.

Last edited by Wanderers : 17th April 2017 at 16:11.
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Old 17th April 2017, 17:07   #2096
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Originally Posted by Wanderers View Post
The difference in price will not be more than 1 lakh. Moreover it can be on higher side as well..
If you bargain well, you can still get the 3.2L 4X4 AT Titanium at March-2017 price as dealer do have inventory. You may have to compromise on color choice.

Thus it would be good idea to bring the car home on your baby's 1st birthday.

Incase you need contact detail of my Noida Dealer, do let me know. He is a senior guy and has much leverage over his company.
Your setting do not permit sending a PM.
Oh I enabled sending PM now. I checked with below dealers before finalizing my decision.

1. Noida Ford, Sec-63 Noida.
2. Harpreet Ford, Prashant Vihar, Delhi
3. Harpreet Ford, Dilshad Garden, Delhi
4. Harpreet Ford, Moti Nagar, Delhi
5. Tanish Ford, Gurgaon

When I started searching the Ex Showroom price was 30,89,000 which got increased to 31,50,000 from April onward. I checked now I can not get the old price since the prices has been updated in RTO as well.

The best deal after enough bargaining was 36.40L on-road price with Ford preferred insurance but was on old model which does not have the in built navigation. Hence I closed deal with Tanish Ford on 36.80 on new model with navigation feature.

I don't think I can get better deal on the latest model as it has not yet arrived in any of the dealership. I checked the Navigation kit cost approx 1.3L as an accessory so I guess my deal is fine.
Please correct me if I am wrong.

Final Breakup

Ex Showroom: 31,50,000
RTO registration: 4,01,989
T.C.S: 31,500
Insurance + Zero dep: 87,000
Green tax: 31,500
Essential kit: 9,000
3rd year warranty: 20,560

Total of above: 37,31,549

Discount: 51,549

Net Payable: 36,80,000
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Old 17th April 2017, 18:12   #2097
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Default Re: Ford Endeavour : Official Review

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Originally Posted by samaspire View Post

There is no way governments will let go of easy income. 43%

So there is no way that the prices of "luxury goods" like cars will come down with GST.
Current tax structure for vehicles in India

http://www.mycarhelpline.com/index.p...=572&Itemid=10

If this is correct, the total tax need to be paid for an SUV/Luxury class vehicle is 27% (Exicse Duty) + 4% (Infrastructure Cess ) + 14.5% (VAT) = 45.5 %

Once GST is in place, ( Assuming SUV in Luxury Category) this will be
28% (Highest GST rate ) + 15 % (Highest Cess rate) = 43 %

Effective difference once GST is in place is 2.5%

Even If considering the lowest VAT rate - 12.5%, the current taxation is at 43.5% and the difference is 0.5% after GST is in place.
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Old 17th April 2017, 19:17   #2098
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LionX View Post
Current tax structure for vehicles in India



http://www.mycarhelpline.com/index.p...=572&Itemid=10



If this is correct, the total tax need to be paid for an SUV/Luxury class vehicle is 27% (Exicse Duty) + 4% (Infrastructure Cess ) + 14.5% (VAT) = 45.5 %



Once GST is in place, ( Assuming SUV in Luxury Category) this will be

28% (Highest GST rate ) + 15 % (Highest Cess rate) = 43 %



Effective difference once GST is in place is 2.5%



Even If considering the lowest VAT rate - 12.5%, the current taxation is at 43.5% and the difference is 0.5% after GST is in place.

The excise duty on SUVs is 30% and not 27%. The 27% duty is on higher end sedans. There is also the small adjustment for two factors.

First, the current excise duty is levied on ex factory price (excluding dealer margin) whereas the GST will be levied on total price. But given that dealer margins tend to be really low ( <5% I think) this will not make much of the difference.

Second, currently the VAT is paid on price including excise duty. Whereas in GST the cess will be paid on price excluding GST. Effectively the current duty structure is 34% (excise plus the cess) and the VAT is levied on this 34% also. So effective tax burden comes to around 50% in Maharashtra where the VAT is 13.5%. Under GST the tax burden will simply be 28% + 15% = 43%. So effectively a saving of 7% which is huge. More than 2 lakh rupees!

Now to me this seems to be too good to be true. I don't think the government will want to leave such a big amount on the table for such a low volume category. Plus I don't think the government will like the headline that Luxury SUVs become cheaper by 2 lakhs whereas some small but widely used category becomes even slightly expensive. So my guess is that the actual benefit will be much lower. But we will have to wait and see.

I also think some of the recent price increase is because if companies do get benefit under GST they will be required to pass it on under the 'no-profiteering' clause in the GST. So the companies are simply preparing the ground for retaining some of the tax benefit, if there is some benefit in terms of lower tax rate. So if you do get a 5-6% lower tax rate the companies will have to pass it on but because they have taken a 2-3% price hike effectively they have not passed on the entire benefit but at the same time are not breaking the law. If you look objectively, the rupee has appreciated sharply and commodity prices have generally remained stable or declined in last couple of months. So there is no logical case for a price hike otherwise.

So what I have done is cancelled my booking since I am in no great hurry for the car. The best case is that I save some money. The worst case is that there will be no saving but no additional cost either and the enjoyment of the vehicle gets delayed by 3-4 months - which honestly is no big deal for me. But that is a personal factor.

This is just my line of thinking...
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Old 17th April 2017, 20:41   #2099
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Originally Posted by roby_dk View Post
I checked the Navigation kit cost approx 1.3L as an accessory so I guess my deal is fine.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
SYNC3 supports Google Maps which are much superior to any offline maps. I doubt you will use the offline maps once get hooked into live traffic info on Google maps. It may be worth saving 40k spend on upgrades.
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Old 17th April 2017, 21:43   #2100
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Originally Posted by lollapalooza View Post
The excise duty on SUVs is 30% and not 27%. The 27% duty is on higher end sedans. There is also the small adjustment for two factors.

First, the current excise duty is levied on ex factory price (excluding dealer margin) whereas the GST will be levied on total price. But given that dealer margins tend to be really low ( <5% I think) this will not make much of the difference.

Second, currently the VAT is paid on price including excise duty. Whereas in GST the cess will be paid on price excluding GST. Effectively the current duty structure is 34% (excise plus the cess) and the VAT is levied on this 34% also. So effective tax burden comes to around 50% in Maharashtra where the VAT is 13.5%. Under GST the tax burden will simply be 28% + 15% = 43%. So effectively a saving of 7% which is huge. More than 2 lakh rupees!
Yes, you're correct excise duty for SUV is 30%

http://www.siamindia.com/economic-af...8&pgidtrail=19

Going by your logic, here is the tax calculation for an SUV priced at 19 L ex-factory

Current Taxation :

Ex factory price : 19,00,000 INR

34 % Excise duty + Infra Cess = 6,46,000

----------------------------------------------------------
Price ( before VAT ) = 25,46,000 ( Ex factory + Excise duty & infra Cess)

Dealer's Margin = 1,25,000

14.5 % VAT in Karnataka = 3,69,170 INR

Ex showroom Price = 30,40,170 INR
-----------------------------------------------------------
Road Tax = 6,08,034 INR ( 20 % of ex showroom )

Insurance = 1,15,000

TCS = 30,401

On Road price ( BLR ) = 37,93,605 INR


GST :

Ex factory price : 19,00,000 INR
---------------------------------------------------------
Dealer's Margin = 1,25,000

28 % GST = 5,67,000 ( 28 % of 20,25,000 )

15 % Cess = 3,03,750 ( 15% of 20,25,000 )
---------------------------------------------------------
Ex showroom Price : 28,95,750 INR

Road Tax = 5,79,150 INR ( 20 % of ex showroom )

Insurance = 1,15,000

TCS = 30,401

On Road price ( BLR ) = 36,20,301 INR

Difference in ex showroom price is 1,44,420 INR

Difference in On Road price is 1,73,304 INR

Last edited by LionX : 17th April 2017 at 21:44.
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