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Old 3rd May 2017, 00:30   #2161
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Default Re: Ford Endeavour : Official Review

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My friend is suffering from this unusual engine related issue with his Endy 2.2. He has had 2 breakdowns in a matter of months and dealer is now blaming it on his usage, which seems like a textbook blame-game move. Here's what he asked me to post on TBHP :
I feel this 2nd issue might be related to the first, and the 1st was caused due to negligence by the dealer during PDI. It could be that they don't want to own up and report to Ford and are trying to fleece the customer. Being barely months old, Ford should definitely honour warranty in this case.
I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this.
]
Ford is very good at honouring warranty provided the dealer co operates.
Ask your friend to convince the dealer and get it fixed under warranty
(May be they are hesitant to own up to the mistake/defect)
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Old 3rd May 2017, 00:38   #2162
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Originally Posted by ecosport rules View Post
Ford is very good at honouring warranty provided the dealer co operates.
Ask your friend to convince the dealer and get it fixed under warranty
(May be they are hesitant to own up to the mistake/defect)
Thanks.
I asked him to check with some other dealer, get the car inspected by them, and confirm the cause of the problem. The car is still at the dealer and being diagnosed. Let's hope he has patience.
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Old 3rd May 2017, 00:41   #2163
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Default Re: Ford Endeavour : Official Review

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Originally Posted by Rohan24 View Post
My friend is suffering from this unusual engine related issue with his Endy 2.2. He has had 2 breakdowns in a matter of months and dealer is now blaming it on his usage, which seems like a textbook blame-game move. Here's what he asked me to post on TBHP :


I feel this 2nd issue might be related to the first, and the 1st was caused due to negligence by the dealer during PDI. It could be that they don't want to own up and report to Ford and are trying to fleece the customer. Being barely months old, Ford should definitely honour warranty in this case.
I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this.
It is very sad to see the terrible experience your friend has to undergo, that too on a brand new Endeavour.

With the vast experience i had with Ford (I owned the previous Generation Endeavour, the All New Fiesta and Ford Fusion), one thing that is very clear is that Ford listens to its "dealers" and not to its "end-customers".

The easiest way out of this is to ask your friend to be-friend the "Warranty" person/Manager in Akshaya Ford and persuade him to get this repair cleared under Warranty.

Take my word, if the dealer pushes for replacement, Ford listens to them. If the dealer puts his foot down and says "no" to replacement under warranty, then Ford will not replace the part under 99.95% of the cases.
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Old 3rd May 2017, 09:13   #2164
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Default Re: Ford Endeavour : Official Review

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Originally Posted by Rohan24 View Post
I asked him to check with some other dealer, get the car inspected by them, and confirm the cause of the problem.
I feel sorry for your friend. I am afraid getting the car inspected second time for the same issue is unlikely to change the situation much as all records are centrally stored and the second dealer will check the vehicle history where he will find all the details entered by the first dealer.

If the second dealer also gives the same diagnostics then your friend should write to Ford directly and in case even that doesn't work then he can use the power of social media to get them to move.

These are the experiences that I was worried about when I was considering my SUV purchase last year. All cars, be from whatever brand, are bound to face issues but what is critical to the owner is how sympathetic is dealer who is the foot soldier of the brand, to the owner's problems. This was the reason I ruled out Ford as a brand although the truck is highly capable and is loaded with features to the brim and went for the Toyota badge.

This was put to test recently and Toyota came out with flying colors. I have put more details in my ownership thread.
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Old 3rd May 2017, 09:22   #2165
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Default Re: Ford Endeavour : Official Review

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Originally Posted by Rohan24 View Post
My friend is suffering from this unusual engine related issue with his Endy 2.2. He has had 2 breakdowns in a matter of months and dealer is now blaming it on his usage, which seems like a textbook blame-game move. Here's what he asked me to post on TBHP :
Did he reach out to Ford yet?Email them on the customer care id. I have found them quite helpful in extending support to the customers.
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Old 3rd May 2017, 21:55   #2166
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Originally Posted by Rohan24 View Post
My friend is suffering from this unusual engine related issue with his Endy 2.2. He has had 2 breakdowns in a matter of months and dealer is now blaming it on his usage..
----
My All new Endeavour just 2 days after delivery suffered a breakdown at 11pm on a highway which left me and 2 of my cousins stranded on a state highway which was fortunately only 4km away from home. Later when we repeatedly tried starting the vehicle we could reach home steadily at 20km/hr but the vehicle had severe vibrations at idle and wouldn't accelerate leaving heavy black smoke. This was due to the intercooler and ford fixed it under warranty.
Boy! I hope the best would come out of this for your friend. But allow me add a few tips based on the info you shared.

The 1st issue above, with black smoke, I am not convinced it has anything to do with intercooler. Black smoke is a sign of incomplete combustion. It can happen due to excessive fuel injection, a blocked air filter, turbo not spooling enough etc. Basically anything that significantly alters the air to fuel ratio. So much so that there is not enough combustion and the partially burned fuel exits as black smoke. If intercooler fails, by this I mean fails to cool the incoming air, then the engine will derate noticeably with probably 'some' smoke. But should not emit the kind of smoke in the video. Excessive fueling typically happens with worn out injectors (heavy usage over years).

Can you get the exact work done on the engine the first time. I guess there is more to it than "intercooler". The dealer must have shared the work details with Ford for sure. You need to dig that up. What did dealer share with Ford as the problem, root cause and repair. What parts were replaced etc. Put it here on this forum and we can help diagnose our share.

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Then 4months passed and here comes in the 2nd surprise. I suddenly experience abnormal fan noise from the engine and this is accompanied with loss of power. This happens 3-4 times in an hour. I have given the vehicle at the dealership and they try to blame me that I've used adultered diesel which is the cause for this issue. I always make sure to tank up in the city before going for any long drive to avoid filling in rural areas where there is a possibility of fuel adulteration and that is what I did even this time before going for a roadtrip from Theni to Munnar to Coimbatore. I did a tank full at a Reliance bunk at Theni and then filled at a HP bunk at Coimbatore. Both of which are well reputed bunks and I've been filling from these 2 bunks regularly that there are no chances of fuel adulteration.
Typical adulterated diesel fuel, found in some of the pumps, will not cause this kind of black smoke, unless diesel and petrol are mixed, which I doubt but not improbable. Diesel is much more robust than petrol in coping with adulteration. Diesel ECU will simple shift the injection timing and quantity to accommodate for the changed burn rate characteristics for the adulterated fuel.

In this 2nd issue, what I suspect happening is that the radiator fan is failing and hence the coolant temperature is going up. To bring down the coolant temperature, the ECU is derating the engine, which you experience as loss of power. This issue is aggravated by the summer temperatures. Once the coolant temperature is below a threshold value, ECU gives back the required power. This repeats.

But why is the fan failing now. It is separate from engine and should be run by an electric motor. As you said there is abnormal fan noise, can you check and see if the cowl is touching the fan. Be careful, make sure the engine is fully shutdown and cool. This time I suggest you get an OBD tool diagnostics data as well, from the dealer. Preferably with a different dealer.

Quote:
I feel this 2nd issue might be related to the first, and the 1st was caused due to negligence by the dealer during PDI. It could be that they don't want to own up and report to Ford and are trying to fleece the customer. Being barely months old, Ford should definitely honour warranty in this case.
I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this.
Yes there is a possibility the 2 issues are related. May be some sensor or some dealer goof up. You, as a customer, should exercise your right to know the full details of the problem and the repair work done. Ford, from my experience is way better than some of their dealers make them out to be. Write to Ford.
Also ask your friend to PM me. I am willing to share some knowledge.
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Old 4th May 2017, 00:16   #2167
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Originally Posted by Czarcarsm View Post


Typical adulterated diesel fuel, found in some of the pumps, will not cause this kind of black smoke, unless diesel and petrol are mixed, which I doubt but not improbable. Diesel is much more robust than petrol in coping with adulteration. Diesel ECU will simple shift the injection timing and quantity to accommodate for the changed burn rate characteristics for the adulterated fuel.

In this 2nd issue, what I suspect happening is that the radiator fan is failing and hence the coolant temperature is going up. To bring down the coolant temperature, the ECU is derating the engine, which you experience as loss of power. This issue is aggravated by the summer temperatures. Once the coolant temperature is below a threshold value, ECU gives back the required power. This repeats.
.
.
Thanks, that was very insightful.
No, the dealer has blamed the fan noise and abnormality on adulterated fuel! How can fuel even affect the fan?! Me, and even my friend aren't convinced by this answer, which is why I feel the 2 issues are related and dealer is covering up.
Also the first issue was due to the intercooler hose getting unbolted. Which, I believe would've sent the ECU in a frenzy, and it went into limp mode. So, possibly more fuel being injected than air available, because obviously the turbo won't work.

He isn't a BHPian, but a frequent visitor to the forums. Some friend of his knows someone in Ford management and is trying to contact him.
I'll tell him to try the methods described by you.

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Originally Posted by glenmz View Post
Did he reach out to Ford yet?Email them on the customer care id. I have found them quite helpful in extending support to the customers.
Yes he has mailed Ford about the issue. Yet to get a reply.

Last edited by aah78 : 5th May 2017 at 00:57. Reason: Posts merged. Please use MULTI-QUOTE/QUOTE+ when responding to mutlple posts. Thanks!
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Old 4th May 2017, 08:03   #2168
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Default Re: Ford Endeavour : Official Review

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Originally Posted by Rohan24 View Post
Thanks, that was very insightful.
No, the dealer has blamed the fan noise and abnormality on adulterated fuel! How can fuel even affect the fan?..
Also the first issue was due to the intercooler hose getting unbolted.
Welcome. Based on the additional info, I am suspecting turbo surge. The abnormal fan noise your friend mentioned may be the turbo compressor surging. It makes a very similar sound as a fan belt slipping, but without that shrill.

I am suspecting the sudden surge must have dislodged the intercooler hose, which was the 1st issue. Surge may also be making that ‘fan noise’ described by your friend, which is the 2nd issue. Sensors are detecting surge and ECU is derating to prevent turbo damage. May be one of the turbo valve is malfunctioning (Blow Off Valve, By pass valve, Waste gate valve etc.) I don’t know the details of this particular turbo. The turbo valves don’t conk out like that. I am thinking heavy soot deposit from 1st issue has made some turbo valves to get stuck.
All these are some theorizing based on info you have posted. OBD diagnostics should help uncover more.

By the way, did your friend, even accidentally, put petrol into that diesel tank ! All the initial symptoms, like sudden stoppage, heavy smoke, low power hence limp home, dealer suspecting fuel quality, all points to putting petrol into diesel. Yes dislodged intercooler hose can cause smoking too. But wrong fuel can lead to surge and dislodge the hose. Hence it could be a secondary failure. The more I think about this issue, the more I think incorrect fuel may be the real root cause. Ask him to check the fuel bill, to see if it has petrol. May be even check with the pump.

If he has put petrol, the entire fuel system needs replacement, along with some sensors, o-rings, seals etc.

Youtube video with turbo surge sound.
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Old 4th May 2017, 14:45   #2169
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Default Re: Ford Endeavour : Official Review

No, he is a petrolhead too and maintains he has been thorough with the car and hasn't put petrol by mistake. Even if he had, I think the dealer would've been quick to point that out, because then it makes their job easy, doesn't it?

Latest update : The dealer has cleaned the fuel lines and fuel filter and assured him the problem won't crop up again. He isn't satisfied with their reasoning still. So much so, that he wants to file a case in consumer court! (I find that to be a bit too extreme, though)
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Old 4th May 2017, 16:26   #2170
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Default Re: Ford Endeavour : Official Review

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Originally Posted by Rohan24 View Post
I feel this 2nd issue might be related to the first, and the 1st was caused due to negligence by the dealer during PDI. It could be that they don't want to own up and report to Ford and are trying to fleece the customer. Being barely months old, Ford should definitely honour warranty in this case.
I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this.
The video link for the issue :
The video is of first issue right? Then yes a leaking turbo plumbing will cause heavy smoke and in a modern ECU controlled engine, it would go into limp mode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rohan24 View Post
Thanks, that was very insightful.
No, the dealer has blamed the fan noise and abnormality on adulterated fuel! How can fuel even affect the fan?! Me, and even my friend aren't convinced by this answer, which is why I feel the 2 issues are related and dealer is covering up.
Endy has a mechanical fan with a slip clutch connected to the engine. Find out if the clutch is functioning properly. While the engine is switched OFF (ideally keep the key in hand) and not harming hand with a hot engine, gently rotate the fan blade with hand. It should move with some amount of friction. If it is locked tight that means the clutch unit of the fan is stuck and would be turning at same speed as engine is. This can cause loud noise from the fan.

Once this is ruled out, just observe where the sound is actually coming from, when the engine is running. Do not poke hands inside, but just try to identify if you can pin point the sound.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rohan24 View Post
Latest update : The dealer has cleaned the fuel lines and fuel filter and assured him the problem won't crop up again. He isn't satisfied with their reasoning still. So much so, that he wants to file a case in consumer court! (I find that to be a bit too extreme, though)
First check if the sound issue is fixed, sometime they would have done the right thing but might not want to admit mistake in diagnosis and would give cock and bull story.

From the looks of it, i would say the dealer workshop is not a great one and one should look for the nearest alternate dealer workshop for future works or even for a second opinion.
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Old 4th May 2017, 20:01   #2171
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No, he is a petrolhead too and maintains he has been thorough with the car and hasn't put petrol by mistake. Even if he had, I think the dealer would've been quick to point that out, because then it makes their job easy, doesn't it?
Once you mix petrol with diesel, finding it out is a tough job. Smell test might help, depending on mix ratio.

Quote:
Latest update : The dealer has cleaned the fuel lines and fuel filter and assured him the problem won't crop up again..
I visited Ford service center today for my car. There I met with the Service Shop Manager and showed your video. He observed there is significant knock and strongly suspects fuel mixing. We exchanged a lot of other possible root causes like injector, surge, timing etc. Finally felt fuel mixing as the top suspect. He stressed on OBD diagnosis. He also said Ford is extremely quick with any issues on Endeavour and asked if the owner called the Ford direct line posted on the windshield ? Also share any warning lights he saw on the dashboard. There must have been warning lights for both the issues.

May be fuel mixing happened without your friend's knowledge. Here is a Team-BHP link on putting petrol into CRDi, basically a pump attendant error.

(Accidentally filling Petrol in a Diesel car?)Petrol-in-Diesel-tank

Hope you can continue to keep us posted, now that the dealer has done some repair work. Especially on the 'fan sound'
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Old 4th May 2017, 20:05   #2172
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Yes thanks, now that you have elaborately zeroed in, we can't rule out fuel mixing.
The car is apparently fixed now, and the dealer has carried out multiple road tests to confirm. He'll be getting it back tomorrow. He's going to insist on a 5 year warranty free of cost from Ford, for peace of mind.
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Old 4th May 2017, 23:55   #2173
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Yes thanks, now that you have elaborately zeroed in, we can't rule out fuel mixing.
The car is apparently fixed now, and the dealer has carried out multiple road tests to confirm. He'll be getting it back tomorrow. He's going to insist on a 5 year warranty free of cost from Ford, for peace of mind.
Hope all goes well.
Must be very painful to go through all this nonsense with a brand new car.

Has the dealer zeroed in on the most probable cause?
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Old 8th May 2017, 12:06   #2174
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Default Re: Ford Endeavour : Official Review

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Yes thanks, now that you have elaborately zeroed in, we can't rule out fuel mixing.
The car is apparently fixed now, and the dealer has carried out multiple road tests to confirm. He'll be getting it back tomorrow. He's going to insist on a 5 year warranty free of cost from Ford, for peace of mind.
Would be useful if you post further update/troubleshooting if any. This is a first engine related issue with the Endeavor so far. Hopefully it is not and its only because of fuel mix.

On a side note, I found reviews (2 big magazines) really writing off Fortuner's ride comfort as bad. How bad it is comparing it with Endy, esp if you have ridden on both. I am having a 2013 Innova and wanted to replace it with either Endy or Fortuner. Mainly going to be used by my parents who are in 70s+. Comfortable ride is of HIGH priority.
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Old 8th May 2017, 15:07   #2175
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Mainly going to be used by my parents who are in 70s+. Comfortable ride is of HIGH priority.
Buy Innova with Captain seats, not only will it be more comfortable over both of these SUV, it will be much easy for them to get in and out considering their age. Buy 2,8 which has same engine/transmission as Fortuner. They will be better dealing with Toyota guys as well in case you are not in country and Innova should hold it's resale value better.
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