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Old 31st May 2017, 22:58   #2281
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Default Re: Ford Endeavour : Official Review

Just thought I should update here.
I have a 2016 Endeavour with Sync2. Got frustrated and jealous reading about all these ongoing topics of sync3 and new apps and all so I called Ford customer care.
First call - I explained I have a 2016 3.2 titanium with sync2. I said I understand it cannot be updated through software update to sync3. I said I dont mind paying to change the hardware altogether.
Their reply - after a 4-5 minute hold - "Sir the hardware is different so it cannot be updated "
I asked for anyone senior or technical, explained the entire thing again. This person said they'll check and arrange a call back.

Got a call back after 2 days. They said sorry we can't update since it's a different hardware. I explained yet again, then they made me hold a while then took someone on conference who was apparently more technically sound. At first he said the same thing again that it's a hardware change and can't be updated. Again I explained that I'm ready to pay for hardware change as the rest of the car is exactly the same so requested them to check whether it is possible and if not then why not. Finally this person at least understood my point and said even that can't be done, although he didn't know why. But he knew that hardware change is not possible even by paying. Sucks for the early buyers.
He didn't even know whether it will be possible in the near or even the distant future. He just knew that not possible.
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Old 1st June 2017, 10:14   #2282
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Default Re: Ford Endeavour : Official Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by Czarcarsm View Post
Quick answer- Apple CarPlay is absolute crap in India.
==========
My suggestion is, don't struggle with Apple with Sync3. You get far better experience with Android. Catch is, not all Android phones are good in Android Auto. The OEM ones like Nexus, MOTO etc seem good.
Thanks Czarcarsm! You actually confirmed my darkest fears :( I suspected that an Android device for the car is the way to go long ago when I tried Google maps through my wife's Samsung Galaxy. But now the entire house is an Apple ecosystem. Oh well. If it must be done, it will be done. Cheers!

Last edited by Jaggu : 1st June 2017 at 18:07. Reason: Please avoid Quoting entire large posts, affects readability. Thanks.
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Old 1st June 2017, 17:50   #2283
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In the last long drive I noted that the doors could be opened while the car was doing speeds, even when the central locking was on ( ie locked by pressing the driver side lock ). I tried it with the passenger locking it explicitly, but same result.

My understanding is that most of such vehicles have locks which does not allow to be opened at high speeds. Can other owners please enlighten me if this is a problem or am I missing any setting?

-tortoise
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Old 1st June 2017, 19:10   #2284
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy_rahul View Post
Just thought I should update here.
I have a 2016 Endeavour with Sync2. Got frustrated and jealous reading about all these ongoing topics of sync3 and new apps and all so I called Ford customer care.

He didn't even know whether it will be possible in the near or even the distant future. He just knew that not possible.
I would suggest the Sync2 Endeavour owners mount a strong campaign with FOrd India regional sales heads. These folks show up in dealerships and off-roading events regularly. May be go in a group and let them know the strong interest and willingness to pay upto may be Rs 50k. My understanding is that Sync2 to Sync3 does not need major updates like ECU, TCU or steering buttons. So its mostly wire harness, ICE hardware and may be some sensors. I am thinking Ford may be worried about workmanship if done at dealership and its associated warranty claims. May be ask them to develop one well trained dealer in each metro. I am sure Ford would listen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SUVolens View Post
Thanks Czarcarsm! You actually confirmed my darkest fears :( I suspected that an Android device for the car is the way to go long ago when I tried Google maps through my wife's Samsung Galaxy. But now the entire house is an Apple ecosystem. Oh well. If it must be done, it will be done. Cheers!
Yes, I am in the same boat. Seems like Apple is going Sony way. Google seem to be leapfrogging Apple in such key fronts like man-machine interface in automotive. With just 1.5-2 % India market share, I am not sure if Apple will make sense for India for the next 2-3 years at least.

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Originally Posted by n.devdath View Post
Coming to the oil, there is a very very elaborate thread here which debates on Synthetic Vs Mineral oil and based on my experience so far, pure synthetic oil has no tangible advantages over mineral oil which are worth its price difference.

What I would recommend though is something like a Xado engine flush once the vehicle has touched 50k km. These things have a genuine impact on the smoothness of the engine and its internals.
I am writing this post, as in another thread, one user experienced engine failure in his Maruti NEXA S-Cross 1.6 Diesel from possible contaminated or recycled oil. I now suspect it had recycled mineral oil. Link>> http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...is-engine.html (Maruti S-Cross 1.6L Sudden death of the 320 DDiS engine)

When you say “pure synthetic oil has no tangible advantages over mineral oil which are worth its price difference” I assume you are talking about driving performance difference. That may be true but I would think for modern lower emission engines, mineral oil can be detrimental. But these days mineral vs. synthetic debate is like Canon vs. Nikon debate. So I will keep this talk only from an engineering point of view. Based on my experience if you plan to keep a modern low emission vehicle for long years (8+ or 250k+ kms) in Indian ambient conditions, synthetic is the best, followed by semi-synthetic. The reasons being

- low bearing clearances and thinner lube films for newer low emission vehicles
- Continuous cycling of turbo from low to high and back due to unique Indian traffic scenario ( really bad both structurally and from journal bearing standpoint)
- Extreme variation in ambient temperatures from really hot summers to near zero winters
- heavy dust and fine particles in air

I think these point were discussed in the other thread for mineral vs synthetic. But after going through that thread I felt full justice was not done to modern lower emission engines like in Endeavour.

Mineral oil breaks down rather fast, toward its end of service life leading to the viscosity increase and lube film break down while the base oil in synthetic maintains its viscosity even 'after' its service life. Although you are changing mineral oil more often, it also makes the engine run longer durations in degraded oil conditions. This duration is much less with synthetic. Also the viscosity 'swing' from new to old is much smaller. This is good for the engine. Degraded oil conditions mean, higher acidity, higher viscosity, lack of film thickness in cold start, oil film breaking down more often etc.

I am assuming the Indian Endeavour piston ring and liner interface is same as the Australian Everest, which has a DPF for emissions. Since Ford hardly sells 600 Endeavours per month, it does not make sense to have Euro4/BS-IV specific rings/liner for India. The Australian Euro 5/6 engines oil film at the ring/liner interface would be very thin, to reduce ash deposits in DPF, generated from burning oil. Less the oil thickness, lesser is the oil pushed into combustion chamber, lesser the ash formed. Additionally to improve the specific fuel consumption toward improving emissions, the bearing lube film thickness is reduced for frictional loss reduction, meaning any viscosity degradation is going to make the already thin oil film break down and accelerate the bearing wear. So these engines have reduced oil consumption and reduced oil film thickness. Negative impact from reduced oil film thickness is more obvious. But reduced oil consumption has good and bad.

Higher oil consumption by the engine is good, if you do weekly or daily oil top up like in marine or locomotive engines (refer IR Alco and EMD engines). You get to introduce fresh doses of oil regularly (almost daily). So over a couple of months, the entire engine oil is replaced just from regular top up. But for cars, where you do oil change at really spread out intervals, reduced oil consumption means oil degrades faster. Especially toward the end of oil life, key factors like Soot, Acidity, Alkalinity, Viscosity, other dissolved particles etc really start to negatively affect the tight clearances. Soot is the big villain here. It is extremely hard, so abrades the bearings, it increases acidity, therefore corrosion, and also negatively affects viscosity. So for higher emission engines with tight bearing clearances and thin lubricating films, soot is really bad. The key therefore is to have oils that can maintain viscosity and also keep the soot dispersed for longer time intervals. Hence mineral oils are extremely poor choice here. It may be a good choice for older generation engines. Ford uses semi-synthetic for Endeavour, probably from an Indian pocket friendliness standpoint. I would think using mineral oil would kill this engine. I would be surprised to see it go beyond 50k kms, while full synthetic might extend it to 250k+ kms or so. Just some mental linear interpolation assuming ‘everything’ remains same.

You are going to produce the same amount of soot irrespective of mineral or synthetic oil as soot is a product of fuel burn. But once soot gets mixed with oil through blow-by and piston-ring scraping, it is going to go after every moving part in the engine. Another important factor is to keep soot from agglomerating into large size particles. Although this is primarily achieved through good additives, full synthetic does a far better job here throughout its oil life. Mineral oil does this only when its new. Of course the question then is, what is truly synthetic, Grp 3, 4, or Grp 5 with ester etc. That is for another day as it would need a new thread.

So at the end of the day, for Endeavour, semi-synthetic is the cheaper option, but if you absolutely love this beast, go for full synthetic. But big NO to mineral oil.

Last edited by Czarcarsm : 1st June 2017 at 19:14.
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Old 1st June 2017, 19:51   #2285
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Default Re: Ford Endeavour : Official Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by Czarcarsm View Post
So at the end of the day, for Endeavour, semi-synthetic is the cheaper option, but if you absolutely love this beast, go for full synthetic. But big NO to mineral oil.
Your argument is technically sound and valid. However Ford will decline Warranty coverage if we use Synthetic Oil. Any views on that?
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Old 1st June 2017, 20:24   #2286
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Default Re: Ford Endeavour : Official Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by tortoise View Post
In the last long drive I noted that the doors could be opened while the car was doing speeds, even when the central locking was on ( ie locked by pressing the driver side lock ). I tried it with the passenger locking it explicitly, but same result.

My understanding is that most of such vehicles have locks which does not allow to be opened at high speeds. Can other owners please enlighten me if this is a problem or am I missing any setting?

-tortoise
I asked this question when I saw this first in Fusion to a technical person from Ford directly, and the answer I got was this is for safety, in case of an accident, due to some electrical failure, they don't want the person to get stuck inside the car.
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Old 1st June 2017, 21:23   #2287
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Default Re: Ford Endeavour : Official Review

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Originally Posted by anumod View Post
I asked this question when I saw this first in Fusion to a technical person from Ford directly, and the answer I got was this is for safety, in case of an accident, due to some electrical failure, they don't want the person to get stuck inside the car.
Thanks Anumod. Is the behavior same with other cars as well? Though the explanation makes sense, I think the risk is with kids. Maybe we should use child locks.
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Old 1st June 2017, 21:54   #2288
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@Czarcarsm

" So at the end of the day, for Endeavour, semi-synthetic is the cheaper option, but if you absolutely love this beast, go for full synthetic. But big NO to mineral oil "

Many thanks for a very informative post about the pros and cons of Synthetic vs Mineral Oils. Since you obviously know your subject, I have a question,

How good are products such as Xado Engine Flush. I have the earlier gen Fortuner that has done 51.5K already and I read in a post on TBHP that it's a good idea to use such products to clean the innards of the engine after 50K

Also, were I to go ahead with such engine flush product, would it affect my warranty?

Thanks in advance

Cheers
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Old 1st June 2017, 23:21   #2289
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Default Re: Ford Endeavour : Official Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy_rahul View Post
Just thought I should update here.
I have a 2016 Endeavour with Sync2. Got frustrated and jealous reading about all these ongoing topics of sync3 and new apps and all so I called Ford customer care.
First call - I explained I have a 2016 3.2 titanium with sync2. I said I understand it cannot be updated through software update to sync3. I said I dont mind paying to change the hardware altogether.
Their reply - after a 4-5 minute hold - "Sir the hardware is different so it cannot be updated "
I asked for anyone senior or technical, explained the entire thing again. This person said they'll check and arrange a call back.

Got a call back after 2 days. They said sorry we can't update since it's a different hardware. I explained yet again, then they made me hold a while then took someone on conference who was apparently more technically sound. At first he said the same thing again that it's a hardware change and can't be updated. Again I explained that I'm ready to pay for hardware change as the rest of the car is exactly the same so requested them to check whether it is possible and if not then why not. Finally this person at least understood my point and said even that can't be done, although he didn't know why. But he knew that hardware change is not possible even by paying. Sucks for the early buyers.
He didn't even know whether it will be possible in the near or even the distant future. He just knew that not possible.
I feel your pain.

Had the exact same feedback from Customer Care that it cannot be done. In fact, I faced a peculiar audio static sound glitch which was escalated to the regional service head of Ford India wherein I asked to change the system to Sync 3. Sadly his response was that it can be done at factory only.

I genuinely feel this is not something impossible and can be done if the hardware is made available.
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Old 2nd June 2017, 15:50   #2290
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Default Re: Ford Endeavour : Official Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by Czarcarsm View Post
I am writing this post, as in another thread, one user experienced engine failure in his Maruti NEXA S-Cross 1.6 Diesel from possible contaminated or recycled oil.
Possible, not proven yet. Let's wait for it to be proven or otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Czarcarsm View Post
When you say “pure synthetic oil has no tangible advantages over mineral oil which are worth its price difference” I
assume you are talking about driving performance difference.
Performance and engine life.

Also, how may passenger cars which aren't cabs even see 150k kms?
I would not buy an oil twice as expensive assuming a 250k km usage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Czarcarsm View Post
So I will keep this talk only from an engineering point of view.
Sounds good but...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Czarcarsm View Post
Mineral oil breaks down rather fast, toward its end of service life leading to the viscosity increase and lube film break down while the base oil in synthetic maintains its viscosity even 'after' its service life.
How fast? Why would a discerning user who intends to, going by your number, run his/her car for 250k + km override an oil change interval?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Czarcarsm View Post
Also the viscosity 'swing' from new to old is much smaller. This is good for the engine. Degraded oil conditions mean, higher acidity, higher viscosity, lack of film thickness in cold start, oil film breaking down more often etc.
How small?
What are the comparative figures for acidity, viscosity, film thickness etc?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Czarcarsm View Post
The Australian Euro 5/6 engines oil film at the ring/liner interface would be very thin, to reduce ash deposits in DPF, generated from burning oil. Less the oil thickness, lesser is the oil pushed into combustion chamber, lesser the ash formed.
Again, how less?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Czarcarsm View Post
Especially toward the end of oil life, key factors like Soot, Acidity, Alkalinity, Viscosity, other dissolved particles etc really start to negatively affect the tight clearances.
To what extent? Do we have numbers to speak with or is it only text?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Czarcarsm View Post
I would think using mineral oil would kill this engine. I would be surprised to see it go beyond 50k kms, while full synthetic might extend it to 250k+ kms or so.
So are you saying the Endy's engine is that susceptible?

To sum it up, from an "engineering standpoint", unless there is data to corroborate what you have said, I will not buy it.
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Old 2nd June 2017, 15:56   #2291
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Originally Posted by tortoise View Post
Thanks Anumod. Is the behavior same with other cars as well? Though the explanation makes sense, I think the risk is with kids. Maybe we should use child locks.
With Japanese cars the locking button is different, so this will not come in. All the Fords have the locking button is same.
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Old 2nd June 2017, 16:53   #2292
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Originally Posted by nareshtrao View Post
Your argument is technically sound and valid. However Ford will decline Warranty coverage if we use Synthetic Oil. Any views on that?
OEM warranty cancellation may be due to various reasons. Based on my own experience, I would think the reasons are these.

Out of the 4 fluids engine handles - coolant, oil, fuel and air. Out of these, the quality of the first 3 has the most potential for damaging the engines. Oil if below the required spec limit, can be very detrimental. Oils above the spec, like synthetics but with 'improper' additives can be equally damaging. Hence most OEMs want to control oil within a narrow band of spec limits.

Additives are not easily dissolved or kept suspended in Group 4 synthetics. These oils require some special additives. Also to compensate these have more detergency. Many years ago the synthetics damaged seals and gaskets. But now a days both the oil industry and OEMs have figured out ways to prevent such damage. OEMs now have specs which the oil has to meet. But not all synthetics meet the OEM specs. Hence the warranty issue. I would not expect the dealer SA to know the difference between group 3 & 4 synthetic oils. He/she is going to blanket reject. It shows to some extend the lack of knowledge at dealership and zero appetite for risk from OEM side.

On top of this both water and fuel quality are questionable in India. Water quality varies significantly by region. Oil is the one thing under OEM control and they will deal it with a deft hand. In the case of the S-cross 1.6 failure, the OEM was openly accusing fuel quality. They would not dare say that in Eu or US, for the fuel adulteration is not expected there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AAD View Post
@Czarcarsm

" So at the end of the day, for Endeavour, semi-synthetic is the cheaper option, but if you absolutely love this beast, go for full synthetic. But big NO to mineral oil "

Many thanks for a very informative post about the pros and cons of Synthetic vs Mineral Oils. Since you obviously know your subject, I have a question,

How good are products such as Xado Engine Flush. I have the earlier gen Fortuner that has done 51.5K already and I read in a post on TBHP that it's a good idea to use such products to clean the innards of the engine after 50K

Also, were I to go ahead with such engine flush product, would it affect my warranty?

Thanks in advance

Cheers
I have replied to your post in the Oil Flush thread. Link here>>

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...ml#post4209818 (Best Oil Flush - Best Procedure?)
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Old 3rd June 2017, 22:13   #2293
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Couple of questions to new endeavour owners:

1/ Does the top end spec model have ISOFIX for attaching car seat?

2/ The navigation app (Map my India app) does it rely on GPS in the phone or is independent of the mobile phone? And does it have traffic and if so how useful is it?

Thanks!
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Old 3rd June 2017, 23:07   #2294
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Default Re: Ford Endeavour : Official Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by lollapalooza View Post
Couple of questions to new endeavour owners:

1/ Does the top end spec model have ISOFIX for attaching car seat?

2/ The navigation app (Map my India app) does it rely on GPS in the phone or is independent of the mobile phone? And does it have traffic and if so how useful is it?
1. AFAIK it does come with ISOFIX mounting points in the middle row.

2. The inbuilt navigation system has a separate GPS antenna and does NOT depend on the phone being connected to the system. No offline navigation system can have live traffic info and this one is no exception.
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Old 4th June 2017, 08:37   #2295
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Default Re: Ford Endeavour : Official Review

Did an 1800 Km return trip to Ahmedabad recently, Endeavour performed well and is a pleasure to drive long distances. I could do both sides without any breaks apart from fuel and food.
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