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Old 9th September 2016, 14:33   #391
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Default Re: Toyota Innova Crysta : Official Review

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I would losing out on mileage and understand that the service costs might be a bit higher (not too sure of this) in the automatic.
Stay with Automatic, the manual gearbox is still 5 speed and Auto will definitely be better even on mileage. I don't think there will be any reliability issues on Auto unit. You can add some aftermarket accessories later. After a while, no one even looks at few features here or there. Except for 7 airbags, most of other things can be retrofitted or managed.If you don't have budget or need for Auto ZX pick Auto GX.
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Old 9th September 2016, 15:19   #392
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Default Re: Toyota Innova Crysta : Official Review

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Originally Posted by Turbanator View Post
Stay with Automatic, the manual gearbox is still 5 speed and Auto will definitely be better even on mileage.
Agree that AT will have more hauling power since it has bigger 2.8L engine.

However, just a thought on mileage. The AT comes with 2.8L engine v/s 2.4L for MT. What one gains in terms of mileage for a 6-speed AT gearbox could be neutralized by higher engine (2.8L) capacity. Most AT owners are reporting 9 - 11 kmpl v/s MT owners reporting slightly higher kmpl.
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Old 9th September 2016, 16:18   #393
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Default Re: Automatic v/s Manual quandry

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Originally Posted by Bapu View Post
I have the option of buying any model. It will be a 8 seater for sure. But am mightily confused whether to take a manual VX or a automatic GX.

We are mainly going to be a family of 4, but need the larger car due to luggage and the occasional family trip.

My driving is 75% highways and 25% City ( that too Ahmedabad and Baroda, not major traffic). Monthly running is about 2500 to 3000 Kms per month, primarily 95% time in Gujarat only.

Also, we might use the car for the occasional long distance tour and there's a niggling query which Automatic users would be able to answer - How do the automatics fare on ghat sections ? I had recently been to Saputara and there was a section, wherein the Liva had to be revved in the 1st Gear, so the query.

Advise i am looking for is whether the Automatic makes that much sense and how does it fare on Ghat section?

I would losing out on mileage and understand that the service costs might be a bit higher (not too sure of this) in the automatic.
Service cost will be lower for the automatic because you don't have to pay for clutch, pressure plate, release bearing during ownership period. Torque converter automatic is pretty much bulletproof and this particular gearbox (Aisin AC60E) is used in Toyota vehicles like Tacoma and Hilux in other markets including USA. As long as you shift from and PRN&D as per given in the manual you can't abuse it.

In ghat section you would face no issues, getting the vehicle moving will be taken care of by the auto, you don't have to worry about anything else except throttle. Another plus of having a "torque converter" is that it multiplies the torque at from standstill upto low speeds so the vehicle has more torque to get you moving from standstill.

Buy an automatic, market is slowly moving towards autos for self driven vehicles. Traffic situation will only get worse in the coming years. I got so used to the convenience now that i dread driving a manual in city.

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Originally Posted by geotracks View Post
However, just a thought on mileage. The AT comes with 2.8L engine v/s 2.4L for MT. What one gains in terms of mileage for a 6-speed AT gearbox could be neutralized by higher engine (2.8L) capacity. Most AT owners are reporting 9 - 11 kmpl v/s MT owners reporting slightly higher kmpl.
With a light foot its possible to achieve a bit more. As per the MID i'm getting an average of 10KPL in the city. In regular mode.
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Old 9th September 2016, 17:23   #394
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Default Re: Automatic v/s Manual quandry

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Originally Posted by Bapu View Post
Friends,

Posting here as need actual user feedback and i dont think my question needs a seperate thread..

I had booked the Crysta in May, before the launch. However, due to unavoidable reasons have been postponing taking delivery.

I have the option of buying any model. It will be a 8 seater for sure. But am mightily confused whether to take a manual VX or a automatic GX.

We are mainly going to be a family of 4, but need the larger car due to luggage and the occasional family trip.

My driving is 75% highways and 25% City ( that too Ahmedabad and Baroda, not major traffic). Monthly running is about 2500 to 3000 Kms per month, primarily 95% time in Gujarat only.

Also, we might use the car for the occasional long distance tour and there's a niggling query which Automatic users would be able to answer - How do the automatics fare on ghat sections ? I had recently been to Saputara and there was a section, wherein the Liva had to be revved in the 1st Gear, so the query.

Advise i am looking for is whether the Automatic makes that much sense and how does it fare on Ghat section ?

I would losing out on mileage and understand that the service costs might be a bit higher (not too sure of this) in the automatic.

The family is more keen on the VX - simply for the fact that it has all the bells and whistles, while the GX is too bare bones - those AC switches to be paying 20L (mine will be a corporate registration).

To add, I have test driven both and do not find any major difference as per my driving style ( rarely cross over into 3 digit speeds).

Confused, confused
Buy Automatic if you find clutch usage difficult in your usage conditions.

Else buy Manual:

1. Cheaper. So you can buy a higher variant. You can get features which will be impossible to get aftermarket: more airbags, climate control etc.

2. More fun to drive. Numerous BHPians have reported the manual to be more engaging to drive. Also torque converters have a bad reputation
among keen drivers world wide.

3. More mileage.

4. More resale value.

5. Better control on engine braking on ghat sections. Although you can use the lower range in the auto box but it can get cumbersome on fast flowing sections. Fortuner gear box has tendency to coast as soon as you lift your foot off the throttle, innova gear box may be similar.

6. Long term reliability and maintenance cost. Torque converter gear boxes used by Toyota are very reliable but we need to remember that the torque converters also experiences wear. Torque converter will not last the full life of the car and will eventually require a very expensive rebuild/replacement.
Also the auto tranny will require more frequent transmisson fluid changes. In contrast the manual will require a clutch change after some time, which is relatively cheap. A well driven manual clutch can last more than a lakh kilometers.

Last edited by noopster : 9th September 2016 at 18:31. Reason: Please ensure your posts are properly formatted
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Old 9th September 2016, 17:44   #395
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Default Re: Automatic v/s Manual quandry

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Originally Posted by JediKnight View Post
1. Cheaper. So you can buy a higher variant. You can get features which will be impossible to get aftermarket: more airbags, climate control etc.

2. More fun to drive. Numerous BHPians have reported the manual to be more engaging to drive. Also torque converters have a bad reputation
among keen drivers world wide.

3. More mileage.

4. More resale value.

5. Better control on engine braking on ghat sections. Although you can use the lower range in the auto box but it can get cumbersome on fast flowing sections. Fortuner gear box has tendency to coast as soon as you lift your foot off the throttle, innova gear box may be similar.

6. Long term reliability and maintenance cost. Torque converter gear boxes used by Toyota are very reliable but we need to remember that the torque converters also experiences wear. Torque converter will not last the full life of the car and will eventually require a very expensive rebuild/replacement.
Also the auto tranny will require more frequent transmisson fluid changes. In contrast the manual will require a clutch change after some time, which is relatively cheap. A well driven manual clutch can last more than a lakh kilometers.
1) You get the same number of airbags in GX and VX. Be it Auto or Manual. Youre basically paying for more luxury rather than safety.

2) I too took a TD before purchase and found the MT to be quite lacking in a fast getaway situation even with a regular driver at the wheel. AT is fun in its own way. No (mainstream and in same range) manual vehicle would be able to catch up with Crysta 2.8AT in PWR + S mode during a quick getaway with a regular driver at the wheel. The driver in the other manual transmission vehicle has to be pretty good with gear changes to come close. This is not comparing with another Innova but even a car like Jetta MT.

3) Probably yes. Smaller engine and manual.

4) Yet to be validated. Private buyers (no yellow board crystas yet) are buying more AT Crystas than MT and this sales split has been discussed elsewhere in this forum.

5) Yes. But in the AT you can use S mode to hold gear. This is the reason why newer AT with manual mode does out come with L mode.

6) TC lasts long really long unless theres a manufacturing defect or oil level issue. Both of which can be identified early on in its life during usage. If its a bad unit it will be taken care of by the warranty. Torque Converter itself is not a wear and tear item like the clutch. Plus user cant abuse it unless intended.

Last edited by noopster : 9th September 2016 at 18:43. Reason: Quoted post has been edited
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Old 9th September 2016, 18:06   #396
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Default Re: Automatic v/s Manual quandry

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Originally Posted by JediKnight View Post
......
6. Long term reliability and maintenance cost. Torque converter gear boxes used by Toyota are very reliable but we need to remember that the torque converters also experiences wear. Torque converter will not last the full life of the car and will eventually require a very expensive rebuild/replacement.
Also the auto tranny will require more frequent transmisson fluid changes. In contrast the manual will require a clutch change after some time, which is relatively cheap. A well driven manual clutch can last more than a lakh kilometers.
Any specific source for this assertion? Till date I have heard that torque converter AT's are the most reliable and should ideally last the average lifetime of a vehicle. Please let me know why you say so, having two torque converter autos in the family makes me nervous reading this

As for the original query, I would suggest you take an extensive test drive of both. I personally feel that the AT is super convenient, something one realizes only when he starts living with it.

I'll be surprised if the mileage varies much, for a 20L vehicle anyway the gap wont be much in terms of monthly expense for fuel. And in the power mode, it can catch up with pretty much anything, be it open roads or ghats. Yes the features are less although I personally didn't see anything missing that should be a deal breaker. Some accessories as well as the interiors can be spruced up by decent after market options which should be flooding the market by now. As a mechanical package at least, the GX AT makes a lot of sense.

Last edited by noopster : 9th September 2016 at 18:44. Reason: Quoted post has been edited
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Old 10th September 2016, 16:11   #397
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Default Re: Automatic v/s Manual quandry

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I personally didn't see anything missing that should be a deal breaker. Some accessories as well as the interiors can be spruced up by decent after market options which should be flooding the market by now. As a mechanical package at least, the GX AT makes a lot of sense.
Completely agree. Somewhere the VFM proposition of GX AT makes sense to me. The AT should be a completely new segment with the engine and the overall mechanical package, as you rightly say.

I keep on postponing my buy every week, but likely I would end up buying the GX AT sometime this month, as my inner urge keeps on prodding me almost every other day.

As a test case we had imported very high quality earphones and headphones from a Chinese factory with German collaboration, and the quality is reportedly higher than Bose or Sennheiser for the 30k price bracket. I have already called for samples on a speaker package from the same stable, and will post here with complete details if I am able to get the furtive 'awesome' sound quality without adding a separate subwoofer or boxed speakers (why kill the inner aesthetics and space in a car?), with or without an added amplifier. And with some custom built real leather seat covers the and faux wood inserts package, I am wondering if I would be able to reach somewhere near to the feel of ZX.

I do agree that there will always be a difference between factory fit and finish and after market accessories, and am ok with that for now.

On another note, I always wonder why people go in for sub-woofers in a car. No matter how hard you try, it will be almost impossible to get the same effect from a well designed sub-woofer in a room driven by a quality amplifier than in a car with all its acoustic imperfections, and interfering engine sounds and vibrations/noise from the road. Everyday I see so many cars (big and small) with added subwoofers which actually sound awful, with a fake accentuated boom. I also wonder how many of us who spend a decent package on an aftermarket ICE upgrade actually have a quality system at home (no offense meant, please).

I will hunt the relevant threads on this.
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Old 10th September 2016, 18:37   #398
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Default Re: Toyota Innova Crysta : Official Review

Got the chrome window lower garnish installed for the Crysta. Its a mox of OE and afternarket.

The 4 large chrome pieces on all 4 doors are OE strips. These are installed after removing the original black strips.

The 4 smaller chrome pieces on the front quarter glass and the rear fixed window are aftermarket. These are stainless steel items stuck on top of black surface.

Toyota Innova Crysta : Official Review-20160910_18303201.jpeg

Toyota Innova Crysta : Official Review-20160910_18305301.jpeg

OE was installed at Nippon Toyota and the stick ons were added by me at home.
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Old 10th September 2016, 23:10   #399
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Default Re: Automatic v/s Manual quandry

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Originally Posted by Sankar View Post
1) You get the same number of airbags in GX and VX. Be it Auto or Manual. Youre basically paying for more luxury rather than safety.

2) I too took a TD before purchase and found the MT to be quite lacking in a fast getaway situation even with a regular driver at the wheel. AT is fun in its own way. No (mainstream and in same range) manual vehicle would be able to catch up with Crysta 2.8AT in PWR + S mode during a quick getaway with a regular driver at the wheel. The driver in the other manual transmission vehicle has to be pretty good with gear changes to come close. This is not comparing with another Innova but even a car like Jetta MT.

3) Probably yes. Smaller engine and manual.

4) Yet to be validated. Private buyers (no yellow board crystas yet) are buying more AT Crystas than MT and this sales split has been discussed elsewhere in this forum.

5) Yes. But in the AT you can use S mode to hold gear. This is the reason why newer AT with manual mode does out come with L mode.

6) TC lasts long really long unless theres a manufacturing defect or oil level issue. Both of which can be identified early on in its life during usage. If its a bad unit it will be taken care of by the warranty. Torque Converter itself is not a wear and tear item like the clutch. Plus user cant abuse it unless intended.
2) You could buy Honda city E ivtech at half the price. It hits nearly 100 kmph in 2nd gear. So you just needs a single shift. I believe an average joe will be able to outrun a crysta 2.8. Some practise on Abarth Punto /Figo diesel could achieve similar results. I have a hunch crysta 2.8 with MT would hit the ton in 10 seconds. The Crysta 2.8 AT does it in around in 11.5 seconds (per autocar )

4) At the moment MTs have a higher resale across segments (where both transmissions are available). But the market may make an exception for Toyota.

Quote:
Originally Posted by avisidhu View Post
Any specific source for this assertion? Till date I have heard that torque converter AT's are the most reliable and should ideally last the average lifetime of a vehicle. Please let me know why you say so, having two torque converter autos in the family makes me nervous reading this
Nothing to get nervous about man. Torque converters especially from Toyota are as reliable as it gets. And most private buyers will sell the car
before they can wear out the gearbox.

But technologies have their limitations. The torque converter is just a small part of the system. Many people think that the auto gear box has no clutch. But actually Internally it has multiple clutches and they do eventually wear out. And when they pack up it is very hard to set them right.

For me the Innova has a life of 15 years, 10 Lakh kms. With due respect to Toyota i would be very surprised if the tranny can last that long in our conditions.

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Old 11th September 2016, 08:25   #400
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JediKnight View Post
Nothing to get nervous about man. Torque converters especially from
Toyota are as reliable as it gets. And most private buyers will sell the car
before they can wear out the gearbox.

But technologies have their limitations. The torque converter is
just a small part of the system. Many people think that the auto
gear box has no clutch. But actually Internally it has multiple clutches
and they do eventually wear out. And when they pack up it is very
hard to set them right.
Torque converter auto transmissions have not just clutches but also brakes inside of it and thats how they shift and thats how they work. Nothing new, thats how a TC auto has worked always, system controls the clutch and brake based on user input not user. Knowing Toyota i doubt they would put a half baked mechanical component in it.

Apart from that theres a reason why the auto variant gets a more powerful tune compared to the manual variant of the same engine in markets where both are sold with same engine in same vehicle.

2.8L 1GD churns out 343NM, 420NM & 450NM - for 5 speed manual, 6 speed manual and 6 speed auto (AC60E/F) respectively.

The 2.4L 2GD with 6 speed manual and 6 speed auto has same torque rating of 400NM. Why same? Because its under 420NM.

Here in the Innova this 2.8L engine churns out just 360NM torque and outputs that using the same auto transmission (AC60E) built to handle much higher torque. The engine and transmission is very understressed in the Innova in its current state of tune. We will see if it can last 15 years.

The 5 speed box is old and is not designed to handle much more than what it gets now.

The new Fortuner will come with 6 speed auto and 6 speed manual with 450NM and 420NM tunes for the 2.8L. If there's a 2.4L 6 speed auto and manual it will come with 400NM tune. Like the Hilux and Fortuner abroad.

Here Innova 2.4L comes with only a 5 speed manual instead of 6 speed manual and the 2.8L auto comes with only 360NM, this i believe is to further differentiate and distance the Innova from the Fortuner when it eventually comes. I'm glad that they are even offering the Innova here with a 2.8L engine, some markets get only 2.4 and 2.7 petrol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JediKnight View Post
2) You could buy Honda city E ivtech at half the price.
It hits nearly 100 kmph in 2nd gear. So you just needs a single
shift. I believe an average joe will be able to outrun a crysta 2.8.
Some practise on Abarth Punto /Figo diesel could achieve similar
results. I have a hunch crysta 2.8 with MT would hit the ton in 10 seconds.
The Crysta 2.8 AT does it in around in 11.5 seconds (per autocar )
City doesn't have any gears eventhough its a 7 speed, its a CVT - one steel belt and two pulleys. Gears are virtual.

Yes precisely, average joes in powerful automatics can outrun performance hatches with average joes inside them.

Probably, we will know when the Fortuner comes with 2.8 Auto and 6 speed manual. With the 5 speed manual, no chance.

Last edited by SDP : 12th September 2016 at 11:57. Reason: merging back to back posts
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Old 11th September 2016, 09:26   #401
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IMHO Toyota is taking Indians for a royal ride with the Crysta. I drove the top end manual yesterday and was appalled to see hard plastic everywhere. Upon tapping the plastics gave a hollow sound . The sheet metal also felt really flimsy.

Compared to this even the xuv seems to have better plastics. Based on what one saw at the Expo the hexa will be in a different league altogether.

And before anyone brings out the reliability argument all I can say is that I have never had any niggle(let alone serious issue) to date with my Safari storme
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Old 11th September 2016, 13:21   #402
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Originally Posted by himanshugoswami View Post
IMHO Toyota is taking Indians for a royal ride with the Crysta.
That's what you get for products in high demand. The reason for the high demand may be anything from reliabilty to any flimsy reason. But demand is demand. And it causes anthing to sell. Same thing happening with the Creta.

Fact of the matter is, you manage to capture a part of the buyers imagination strongly and then sit back and relax raking in the moolah.

Just think, if the Innova didn't have the legacy in India that it had, would the Crysta have dared to have these price tags? 21 lacs? Its something like peak charges in Uber/Ola.
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Old 11th September 2016, 19:43   #403
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Default Re: Toyota Innova Crysta : Official Review

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Originally Posted by Sankar View Post
City doesn't have any gears eventhough its a 7 speed, its a CVT - one steel belt and two pulleys. Gears are virtual.

Yes precisely, average joes in powerful automatics can outrun performance hatches with average joes inside them.

Probably, we will know when the Fortuner comes with 2.8 Auto and 6 speed manual. With the 5 speed manual, no chance.
I was talking about the City manual (not the CVT). It hits near 100 kmph on 2nd gear with the rev limiter cutting in at 7100 rpm. In my opinion an average driver can manage 0-100 kmph in 10.5 seconds in the city, an expert could manage sub 10 seconds. In 2.8 AT crysta both the average and the expert would manage around 11.5 seconds in a straight line.

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Old 11th September 2016, 20:25   #404
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Default Re: Toyota Innova Crysta : Official Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by JediKnight View Post
I was talking about the City manual (not the CVT).
It hits near 100 kmph on 2nd gear with the rev limiter cutting in at
7100 rpm. In my opinion an average driver can manage 0-100 kmph
in 10.5 seconds in the city, an expert could manage sub 10 seconds.
In 2.8 AT crysta both the average and the expert would manage around
11.5 seconds in a straight line.
Ahh Ok.. almost all petrol cars can do almost 100 on speedo in second gear and some goes beyond that in second gear. Esteem does round 120 on speedo in second. My octavia rs also does 120 in second gear and 170 in third. Indian Octavia RS' 0 to 100 time is 8.2 secs (iirc). But to manage that timing even once the driver needs to be expert, about doing it consistently is another matter. I managed 9.2 secs in vbox in my remapped Polo GT TDI after lot of tries and clutch abuse, decided to stop at what i got than to continue abuse the clutch.

In crysta AT any average joe can do 11.5 consistently all the time every time if the road in front is open enough. All it takes is pushing the pedal down hard, no abuse.
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Old 12th September 2016, 09:37   #405
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Default Re: Toyota Innova Crysta : Official Review

Next on the list is changing rear hatch light unit to VX/ZX spec which has a second working tail lamp next to the reverse light. GX doesnt have the provision for a bulb socket there. Its possible to convert GX to take a bulb there but i chose to do it with a ZX tail lamp. Will update once completed, waiting for the bulb holder and socket. At night the one with second tail lamp looks good when viewed from behind.

GX without tail lamp. See blanked hole inside red reflector
Toyota Innova Crysta : Official Review-20160912_09332001.jpeg

VX/ZX with tail lamp. With hole for bulb holder.
Toyota Innova Crysta : Official Review-20160912_093238.jpg

Last edited by bblost : 12th September 2016 at 14:28. Reason: as requested
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