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Old 30th November 2016, 21:44   #16
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Talking Re: Renault Kwid AMT (Automatic) : Official Review

Superb review Omkar, thanks for sharing

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
The lack of manual mode is disappointing. These 3-cylinder 1.0s are small engines at the end of the day and there will be several situations where you need manual mode (overtaking, climbing steep inclines, engine braking down the ghats). No creep is another bummer; how can you make it harder to use an AT??? The Alto AMT provides both of these features and more. All automatics aren't equal and the Alto's is clearly the superior deployment. Plus, I like the Maruti 1.0 engine more than Renault's.
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Originally Posted by RavenAvi View Post
1) No "creep" function.
2) No Manual mode.
Missing Creep function, and missing manual option are itself quite big reasons for anyone to reject the Kwid and go for Alto K10 AMT. Personally I would prefer even the Kwid 0.8 manual over this AMT.

I have experienced the Celerio AMT quite well and here are my observations which will tell how important is creep and manual mode in an AMT:

1. Overtaking a fast moving bus on a two lane single carriageway
Whoever has driven on a single carriageway knows that how painful it gets when there is a moderate to heavy traffic and you are trapped behind a fast moving bus. Until the bus keeps moving, it's all cool but whenever it slows down, you just want to overtake it. I was also doing the same, trying to overtake a bus doing 70 kph as soon as I saw enough of the space to pull out the overtake. I pressed the gas hard and released in a second; aha, 2 gears down and car ready for overtake! Pressed again and the car instantly started overtaking as soon as I got the space (It is better to prepare automatics before an overtake in case you don't have an option of manual). Now even before the overtake was completed; the car up shifted to fourth.

The point of concern here is, Alto or Celerio etc have a better power delivery than the Kwid, which already has a weak mid range. Those cars can still manage to bring you out of tight situations, though in tight condition. But what about the Kwid? Neither you have the engine nor the gearbox, all the driver relying here is on the mercy of electronics. IMO, not the car for tight overtakes at all.

2. Driving uphill
Creep mode in Alto or Celerio is not useful just in the city. Try to drive these cars uphill, if you are on a gentle slope (Not the first-second gear ones) and have to stop midway for any reason. The creep function helps a lot there, release the brake pedal and the car slides back by say 6 inches and then it starts moving ahead slowly like some sort of hill hold. This particular feature of creep can help the new drivers a lot (They find a lot of problem during uphill starts). Any Alto or Celerio driver knows that the car either won't roll back or will do for half a foot max, Kwid won't give this comfort at all. In Alto or Celerio you may or may not hold the handbrake but in Kwid, you will have to hold the handbrake and you can release the handbrake only when you notice that the car has starter to try to move ahead. Else there is still a probability that it will roll back initially, then you will press hard and it will jump ahead to touch the front moving bus in the uphill/ghat road jam or some mall parking basement.
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Old 1st December 2016, 01:03   #17
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Default Re: Renault Kwid AMT (Automatic) : Official Review

This is absolute mayhem. I hope against hope that TeamBHP publishes a list of never-buy-these-cars and take Kwid AMT to the the top of that list. I urge the reviewers/moderators to highlight the dangers of Kwid AMT as a big shout-out in the review. I remember the DSG had a bigger warning than this on the Rapid review and that flaw is nothing in comparison.

Please, please, and please do not buy this car and discourage everyone who intends to buy it. It's an unpardonable crime to skip manual mode on Automatics in India. It's the MOST dangerous (mis)feature for any car on typical Indian usages and could easily turn fatal - many members here have described the how part in detail here. And this is a repeat offence by Renault.
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Old 1st December 2016, 01:06   #18
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Default Re: Renault Kwid AMT (Automatic) : Official Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by 400notout View Post

2) The dealer has refused to register the car, they have asked him to register the car himself at the RTO. They will just deliver with temporary registration. First time I'm hearing this. Are procedures different in kerala? Has someone faced something similar?
No Dealer can deliver a car without a temporary or a permanent registration. A temporary registration is usually provided if the owner of the car resides in a different RTO jurisdiction than where the dealership is present. If your Father in Law resides in Thrissur, it is the dealership's responsibility to get the car registered unless you have opted to register it yourself.

Kerala has many SRTOs. Thrissur is KL-08. Ask your FIL to check the jurisdiction of the RTO that covers his registered address. Usually, if the RTO is not far, dealership does help you out to get the car registered.
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Old 1st December 2016, 01:57   #19
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Default Re: Renault Kwid AMT (Automatic) : Official Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by RavenAvi View Post
3 costly misses which could have otherwise made the Renault Kwid Easy-R AMT the perfect urban runabout and the occasional highway runner:

1) No "creep" function.

2) No Manual mode.

3) No RxT AMT on offer.

Renault could have made it a very tempting and compelling package if they incorporated the above.
Just keeping my requirements alone in mind - If I were to be a Kwid buyer, wouldn't mind on your listed #3.
Definitely would have inclined towards buying one, if below listed features (for a nominal / competitive price increment), were added:

Mandatory:
#1 - Passenger Airbag (dual air bags)
#2 - Manual mode
#3 - Hill Assist
#4 - ABS
#5 - Creep function

Convenience:
#6 - Internally adjustable ORVMs
#7- Retractable rear seatbelts

Above features would have made Kwid an excellent pick among entry level automatic cars. Although, still restricted for city driving only (keeping in mind the light build quality of Kwid, wouldn't consider for highway drives).

Wish Renault launches a 'Special Edition' with above listed features soon

Last edited by GTO : 1st December 2016 at 11:50. Reason: Language
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Old 1st December 2016, 05:30   #20
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Default Re: Renault Kwid AMT (Automatic) : Official Review

I always feel AMT are "juggad" auto transmissions and I myself would never be comfortable owning or driving one. Even if I have to, it won't be the Kwid for sure because I cannot imagine an automatic being useful especially in city conditions with no creep function. Imagine what must be going through the transmission everytime you creep even an inch (de-clutch, clutch via hydraulics) and now imagine this in typical city traffic in any city in India and the wear.

I am also not of the opinion that torque converter is an inherently inefficient transmission apart from the obvious cost reasons. A well designed TQ and engine combo is as efficient as any engine tranny combination. I drive a 2.5 liter NA petrol with 190bhp paired with a 6 speed torque converter automatic and I get around 12kmpl in city conditions pretty easily. Mixed city and highway use I get around 13-14 and pure highway driving gets me anywhere between 15-16 kmpl on normal 91 ron petrol that we get in Melbourne.
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Old 1st December 2016, 08:44   #21
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Default Re: Renault Kwid AMT (Automatic) : Official Review

Great review! Very crisp and to the point.

All reviews online have not touched on the most important specifics that I wanted to know about the product - i.e. the behavior of AMT transmission on different terrains and traffic conditions. Most have just glossed over the fact that there is only one ECU which is a result of cost cutting and the prime reason for Kwid to miss out on the very essential bits like Manual mode, Creep function and Hill Start Assist.

And this is not because Renault doesn't know how to do AMT any better. The Easy-R on the Duster by ZF is much more accomplished on the Duster with all those essential bits referred earlier. Yes, that diesel engine with superb driveability helps it massively but we shouldn't take anything away from the transmission too.

Hopefully, Renault will deal with all these shortcomings (Safe cabin, ABS, better AMT unit etc.) in the near future. If anything they haven't shied away from updating the Kwid from time to time even though the car is massively popular even in its current guise.
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Old 1st December 2016, 08:51   #22
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Default Re: Renault Kwid AMT (Automatic) : Official Review

On the missing creep function on the Kwid: I remember Renault saying (based on other reviews) that they did this deliberately since a survey told them that quite a few drivers (new to AMT) found the creep function confusing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VKumar View Post

2. Driving uphill
The creep function helps a lot there, release the brake pedal and the car slides back by say 6 inches and then it starts moving ahead slowly like some sort of hill hold. This particular feature of creep can help the new drivers a lot (They find a lot of problem during uphill starts).

Renault instead seems to be offering an alternative which they think is more logical : a 'brake hold' feature when the car is at a standstill and in 'Drive'.

This means that the Kwid will not creep forward unless the driver uses the throttle pedal. The driver also does not physically need to hold the brake pedal down or shift to Neutral every time the car comes to a halt in order to keep the car from rolling ahead.

(From - http://auto.ndtv.com/news/renault-kw...d-know-1621718)

I am assuming this will also prevent the car from rolling backwards?
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Old 1st December 2016, 09:12   #23
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Talking Re: Renault Kwid AMT (Automatic) : Official Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by nishsingh View Post
Renault instead seems to be offering an alternative which they think is more logical : a 'brake hold' feature when the car is at a standstill and in 'Drive'.

This means that the Kwid will not creep forward unless the driver uses the throttle pedal. The driver also does not physically need to hold the brake pedal down or shift to Neutral every time the car comes to a halt in order to keep the car from rolling ahead.
Thanks for sharing this piece of info. Let me now put the Kwid in the list of to-TD cars. I guess this feature should help during uphill drives too and if it does, then it's all praises.

Still the omission of manual gear selection option is unpardonable. AMTs neither shift, nor they hold like regular automatics. I personally would never want to drive this on a single carriageway while in a bit of hurry, it can be dangerous IMO. What we do in Alto or Celerio is select the gear for quick maneuvers based in our experience and performance available on tap, the most important aspect of AMT is this only. In case of Kwid, this can't be done and that makes it partially risky IMO. Driving sedately in a well divided expressway or no traffic hilly road, AMT is a bliss, but put the traffic in the situation and there comes the factor of unpredictability.

When I am driving, I personally would never want my gearbox doing a 'surgical strike' on me, and Renault has kept that surprise element in built in this particular offering.
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Old 1st December 2016, 09:47   #24
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Default Re: Renault Kwid AMT (Automatic) : Official Review

After reading this review I am liking my Nano XTA even more. Except for bigger engine and boot, it has got everything - be it creep, manual mode, sports mode, dead pedal, bigger brake pedal, and has never felt bare basic What's more it costs you over a lac cheaper than its closest competitors.

Coming back to Kwid, I believe Renault is now trying to take an undue advantage of the success Kwid manual has seen. It is like taking basics away from what already is basic. I am not sure if potential cheap-automatic buyers would consider it, because for the money Alto AMT is a better choice any day.
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Old 1st December 2016, 10:31   #25
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Default Re: Renault Kwid AMT (Automatic) : Official Review

Nice Review! Rated 5 stars.

Kwid. A good car by design, average engine, good drivability... now with a semi-cooked AMT.

Apart from the head-bobbing thing which one will get used to eventually, the AMT is an affordable yet practical replacement for the other ATs in the market on offer. But still it needs the "Manual mode" terribly. No automatic can be as precise as human judgement/ execution.

Some downsides of missing the Manual mode are basically handling the inclines and overtaking. Me, for instance, drove my Alto k10 AMT in a shopping mall parking, in an upward slope with Auto mode. The car was in 2nd gear. It halted in the middle of the slope for a full second, downshifted to first and pulled up.Head-bobbing effect was at all time high and I supposed the car's gonna roll back, but it didn't. I was alone in the car,shell-shocked. Thank God I was not with family! Now, I never take inclines with auto mode. Nevertheless, handling the same incline in manual mode was much more fun.

Highway overtaking with Auto mode in AMT is one more thing to be cautious about, since it upshifts in the middle, losing acceleration. Moreover AMT in auto mode is one among the laggiest in shifting. What can one do in case of emergencies? No matter of what kind. Manual mode is necessary.Period.

Creep mode. This has become a moot point since it has both sides of a coin. Good for parking at tight spaces. Acts as a hill hold in small to medium slopes to prevent roll back when initiating. Flipside is, new drivers in auto mode might get confused.


What perplexed me is such an outrightly dangerous car getting launched in India. Is it that the Renault team lacking the basic common sense that even a lay man could ponder, or they think Indians are dumb enough to buy whatever rubbish a big company has to offer! How did the RTO ever approve this car??!!
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Old 1st December 2016, 10:34   #26
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Default Re: Renault Kwid AMT (Automatic) : Official Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by nishsingh View Post
On the missing creep function on the Kwid: I remember Renault saying (based on other reviews) that they did this deliberately since a survey told them that quite a few drivers (new to AMT) found the creep function confusing.

Renault instead seems to be offering an alternative which they think is more logical : a 'brake hold' feature when the car is at a standstill and in 'Drive'.

This means that the Kwid will not creep forward unless the driver uses the throttle pedal. The driver also does not physically need to hold the brake pedal down or shift to Neutral every time the car comes to a halt in order to keep the car from rolling ahead.

I am assuming this will also prevent the car from rolling backwards?
I don't think it is implemented as a 'brake hold' feature. If you are on an incline-either going down or going up, and you take the leg of the brake, it is going to roll forward or backward. In fact I think it is downright dangerous for Renault to be going around telling its customers that you can take the leg off the brake when at stand-still and the car will not 'creep'. Pretty sure this can happen only on completely level ground and any kind of incline would mean the car is going to roll.

Would love to be proven wrong though.

I also don't buy the logic that new AMT drivers found the creep confusing. Even a lot of manual cars-especially diesels will start moving as your release the clutch. Not sure what is there to be confused about it. Sounds like a cost saving measure to me.

Last edited by Rajeevraj : 1st December 2016 at 10:36.
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Old 1st December 2016, 11:04   #27
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Default Re: Renault Kwid AMT (Automatic) : Official Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooltronics View Post
Out of all the aspects discussed, I, for once, like the usual size of brake pedal. Larger brake pedals are making first time drivers use their left leg to apply brake which is MONSTROUS MISTAKE
I was travelling in a cab and was hit behind by an AMT Celerio twice within 2 minutes in bumper to bumper traffic and on asking came to know that the lady was using left leg for brakes and right leg for accelerator. In fact many of my known friends have expressed comfort in driving like it, little knowing the adverse effect of it
I agree 100%. The first few things you learn about automatics is to use only the right foot. It is absolutely crazy to drive with left and right feet. Unfortunately, the manufacturers are also not doing enough publicity in their manuals. It should be a full page picture in the manual showing only one foot operation. The second which is taken care of here is creep. You are advised to put on the handbrake when in D mode at traffic lights to avoid banging into someone in front. One of my friends had his Merc going over his knee when he didn't follow this basic. He was checking for a flat tyre (no red light) on the GT Road but I still can't figure out how he got his knee under the tyre!!!

Last edited by ashokabs : 1st December 2016 at 11:06.
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Old 1st December 2016, 11:12   #28
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Default Re: Renault Kwid AMT (Automatic) : Official Review

I am getting the delivery of the Kwid Easy-R this weekend. Its been 1 year since the booking. Hoping sincerely that most of the concerns mentioned here are proven wrong.

Regarding the Hill handling on the AMT, both from Maruti and Renault, i had driven both of them on the same slope to test how it fares when stopped mid way on a slope. On the Maruti (Alto), while taking the foot off the brake, the car started rolling back, and flooring the accelerator resulted in slight wheel spin. On the Kwid, the wheel spin was absent. Extensive / repeated testing was not done. Let the car be home, will keep the thread updated.
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Old 1st December 2016, 11:55   #29
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Post Re: Renault Kwid AMT (Automatic) : Official Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omkar View Post
Sadly, the brake pedal is the same small size as the MT!! Usually, ATs get a bigger / wider brake pedal (likewise with the Alto AMT). This is definitely the most bare-bones AT deployment we've see in the Indian car market. Not cool, Renault. As feature-packed as your MT is, the AT misses the bare essentials!
Why is the size of the brake pedal important ? One advantage, I see with the smaller pedal is that the chances of a driver slamming the brakes instead of that "virtual clutch in his mind" will be very less. And that's a real scenario. And I couldn't find any advantage with having a bigger brake pedal, having driven the Celerio AMT for long. Correct me, if I'm missing something here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deetjohn View Post
All reviews online have not touched on the most important specifics that I wanted to know about the product - i.e. the behavior of AMT transmission on different terrains and traffic conditions. Most have just glossed over the fact that there is only one ECU which is a result of cost cutting and the prime reason for Kwid to miss out on the very essential bits like Manual mode, Creep function and Hill Start Assist.

And this is not because Renault doesn't know how to do AMT any better. The Easy-R on the Duster by ZF is much more accomplished on the Duster with all those essential bits referred earlier. Yes, that diesel engine with superb driveability helps it massively but we shouldn't take anything away from the transmission too.

Hopefully, Renault will deal with all these shortcomings (Safe cabin, ABS, better AMT unit etc.) in the near future. If anything they haven't shied away from updating the Kwid from time to time even though the car is massively popular even in its current guise.
to that! Having gone through the other reviews, and similarity between the reviews, it was as if the reviewers were reading out a document prepared by Renault. This is the best review of the Renault AMT covering its pros and cons like no other!

And with regards to the best small car AMT, I would pick up the Maruti Suzuki Celerio AMT any day for its manual mode. And the car provides adequate space inside as well along with comfortable suspensions for a car that size.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vijayrajthampi View Post
Regarding the Hill handling on the AMT, both from Maruti and Renault, i had driven both of them on the same slope to test how it fares when stopped mid way on a slope. On the Maruti (Alto), while taking the foot off the brake, the car started rolling back, and flooring the accelerator resulted in slight wheel spin. On the Kwid, the wheel spin was absent. Extensive / repeated testing was not done. Let the car be home, will keep the thread updated.
More than the hill stop start, what I'm more concerned is the lack of manual mode and the lack of creep mode. That should never have been missed.

Consider the following situations.
  • Consider the Ooty - Mudumalai route where you are coming down a dangerous slope for around 25 kms. Without a manual mode, you will end up burning the brakes by the time you reach down.
  • Or consider a very steep climb, if the AMT wrongly shifts to 2nd gear based on the speed, you are stuck with that. The situation gets even more panicy if the traction is not good as well.
  • Now, for aggressive overtaking moves on the highway, I would never ever trust the automatic shifting of the AMT. It's downright dangerous. But, the manual mode on the Maruti's AMT solves that problem completely!

The points mentioned by GTO is spot on and there's no point expecting that to be proved wrong. But, if you are just planning it to be used as a city commuter and as a 2nd car, then the Kwid Easy-R would do. But, otherwise, you are making a lot of compromises.

Last edited by amalji : 1st December 2016 at 12:03.
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Old 1st December 2016, 12:04   #30
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Default Re: Renault Kwid AMT (Automatic) : Official Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooltronics View Post
Out of all the aspects discussed, I, for once, like the usual size of brake pedal. Larger brake pedals are making first time drivers use their left leg to apply brake which is MONSTROUS MISTAKE
Please don't blame the brake pedal for someone's stupid mistake.

Of all the pedals, the brake is the most important one. Only logical for it to be the biggest if there is room (not the case with MTs). There's a reason why every AT car in the world has a big brake pedal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by govindremesh View Post
If your Father in Law resides in Thrissur, it is the dealership's responsibility to get the car registered unless you have opted to register it yourself.
I think the case here is with the RTO not being updated of the new variant. Whenever a new variant with mechanical changes is launched, it takes time for RTOs nationwide to get updated. Until they do, they refuse to register the car, hence the dealer is trying to pass the work onto the customer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
I am also not of the opinion that torque converter is an inherently inefficient transmission apart from the obvious cost reasons.
Torque-converters - by design - sap power & efficiency to a certain level.

Quote:
I drive a 2.5 liter NA petrol with 190bhp paired with a 6 speed torque converter automatic and I get around 12kmpl in city conditions pretty easily.
While the numbers sound impressive, it's irrelevant to India because of the traffic conditions. Here, you can only dream about 12 kmpl with a 2.5L car, whether MT or AT. Heck, you'll be lucky if you even see double digits at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nishsingh View Post
I remember Renault saying (based on other reviews) that they did this deliberately since a survey told them that quite a few drivers (new to AMT) found the creep function confusing.
That's a load of bull. How come they offer creep in the thrice-as-expensive Duster AMT then?

Quote:
a 'brake hold' feature when the car is at a standstill and in 'Drive'.
There is no brake hold on the Kwid AMT. Renault has smartly communicated that you don't need to press the brake pedal at red lights (the car won't roll as long as the surface is flat). That statement can be misconstrued. For safety reasons, we still insist that Kwid AMT owners keep the brake pedal pressed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepster_chd View Post
Coming back to Kwid, I believe Renault is now trying to take an undue advantage of the success Kwid manual has seen.
I sort of agree. They're gotten overconfident and it shows in the basic nature of this AT.
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