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Old 10th August 2009, 10:21   #976
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If all it was were ashes of the car and driver, that is one thing. What makes it worse is that these stupid people also take down others with them - passengers, pedestrians and other car occupants. That is what makes them criminals.
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Old 10th August 2009, 10:30   #977
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas8700 View Post
why the there is a detuning

KKK ( pronounced as triple K turbo chargers are used in many european vehicles they are made in germany and are primarily tuned for european conditions were humidity adn temp. are never as high as india.!!) but obviously they are no match for Garret ones.

for low cost Fiat has used lower grade Turbo .

the sole reason that swift turbo ( yes it uses the same turbo, same engine.) oil seals get worn out faster, Fiat has tuned the punto and palio with same turbo charger in a very linear manner to ensure more life. ( same goes for the injection components )

the Linea is particularly tuned to 86PS so that the VGT is not that stressed. in indian conditions which are pretty harsh as heat and humidity is more, they had to make do with the said turbo ( KKK model given)
As a layman, what I understand from the above is:

- Fiat and Maruti have used a cheaper KKK turbo for cost benefits. Nothing wrong with that.

- These turbo's cannot withstand the Indian heat and humidity and are better for European conditions. (Has anyone been to Europe in the summer's nowadays? The heat and humidity are very similar to India thanks to global warming!)

- To take care of the turbo's inability to withstand Indian climate, Fiat have detuned their engines and have set the turbo's to give a more linear feel. By doing this, they will manage to ensure that longevity is as good as in European conditions.

So what is the problem then?

Quote:
why not any of the owners simply ask Fiat engineer wht the swift is aggressive in the turbo spool and not the Fiat when they go for service.
You said above that Fiat has detuned their cars and set the turbo's to give a linear power feel to ensure that it lasts long. Maruti's DDis gives a more aggressive spool so it seems like Fiat have realised what Maruti didn't and we should actually be worried about Swift turbo's blowing because Maruti didn't consider the Indian weather while tuning their engines.

All this is very confusing!

Last edited by amit : 10th August 2009 at 10:33.
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Old 10th August 2009, 10:32   #978
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@Amit,

Out of curiosity, I checked what is parent company of KKK. They are owned by Siemens. BorgWarner, which provides Turbos/transmission to Fiat is American company and nothing to do with KKK.

@Sawyer, VahanPujari,

Common, don't be so harsh about it. Almost everyone has this urge to do a quick sprint on open free expressway. That does not mean they always drive at 160+ speeds on all roads.

P.S.: For me, 100-120 is max safe speed on Indian highways considering "great highway manners" of our people. Anything beyond that is potentially dangerous, even without your fault.

Last edited by RX135 : 10th August 2009 at 10:33.
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Old 10th August 2009, 10:42   #979
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I am sorry, but there is no way you can be harsh enough with potential murderers. You want to race and get the speedkick, go to the race track.
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Old 10th August 2009, 11:25   #980
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amit View Post
All this is very confusing!
Confusing? I'm getting a big hiding from my relatives/ friends/ colleagues whom I scolded in last 4-5 days. They're sending all sorts of wikipedia & google links refuting whatever I told them as per my posts in last 4-5 pages. And now its said that Fiat uses different turbo


Quote:
Originally Posted by RX135 View Post
@Sawyer, VahanPujari,

Common, don't be so harsh about it. Almost everyone has this urge to do a quick sprint on open free expressway. That does not mean they always drive at 160+ speeds on all roads.
RX135

It seems there is some misunderstanding. Request to revisit that post again & you'll understand
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Old 10th August 2009, 11:42   #981
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amit View Post

You said above that Fiat has detuned their cars and set the turbo's to give a linear power feel to ensure that it lasts long. Maruti's DDis gives a more aggressive spool so it seems like Fiat have realised what Maruti didn't and we should actually be worried about Swift turbo's blowing because Maruti didn't consider the Indian weather while tuning their engines.
@Thomas,

I have this same question that Amit has. I am not doubting your intentions of putting that information on the forum, but would definitely like clarifications for questions like this that people have been asking.
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Old 10th August 2009, 11:42   #982
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Coming back to the original topic of this thread, that is Punto test drive.

Can anybody enlighten me if ride quality, handling, FE will be different for Active variant compared to Emotion Pk because of the difference in tyres?
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Old 10th August 2009, 11:46   #983
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I'm wondering why no one has mentioned about the gearing in Punto. How different is it from Swift ? Can anyone post the figures ?
All of us seem to be concentrating only on Turbo/ ECU tuning.

Pardon me if i have missed the discussion on gearing on this epic thread.
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Old 10th August 2009, 11:47   #984
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Exclamation The origins of KKK !?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GSRaj View Post
Guys, I just found a list of suppliers for Linea made in Turkey i suppose. The turbo charger is not supplied by kkk! Just wondering what are the cruel intentions of Thomas ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas8700 View Post
@gsraj
atleast google about some info for what the said turbo supplier stands for!!!
its the parent company of KKK better known as 3k or Kuhnle, Kopp & Kausch.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RX135 View Post
@Amit, Out of curiosity, I checked what is parent company of KKK. They are owned by Siemens. BorgWarner, which provides Turbos/transmission to Fiat is American company and nothing to do with KKK.
I'm not so sure... Here it is from the BW website itself, please check entries for years 1952, 1962, 1972, 1997, 1998, & most importantly, 2003. The information appears genuine (unless of course Thomas himself created or hacked the website to spread false information !) Let's not rush to discredit somebody...

P.S. - Diabloo, friendly fire...

Last edited by im_srini : 10th August 2009 at 11:59. Reason: Perspective !
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Old 10th August 2009, 11:54   #985
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Thomas seem to have some inside imformation. Lets hear from him. Like most, replying to post is not his full time job. Lets wait till he makes time.
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(unless of course Thomas himself created or hacked the website to spread false information !)
Unnecessaryly doubting fellow BHPian's credibility & passing judgement before trial. From his posts Thomas doesn't appear to be a hacker nor a rumour monger.
This forum would be better served without such posts.
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Old 10th August 2009, 12:00   #986
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Originally Posted by diabloo View Post
Like most, replying to post is not his full time job. Lets wait till he makes time.
Why dont' you tell us who these 'most' people are whose full time job you say is replying to posts here?
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Old 10th August 2009, 12:12   #987
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Ok, wait a minute. Lots of strange arguments flying around.
First of all what does turbo do. Its spins. Its a turbine. The turbo manufacturer has a certain max speed at which turbo spins. Unless in the swift, turbo spins faster than manufacturer rated it for, its not going to blow.
Regarding power surge etc., its actually the torque curve.
you can have a sharp torque curve, with torque suddenly jumping to max at 2000rpm. This will give a kick.
Different cars will have different torque curves for the same engine. No big deal. All it changes is driveability, nothing else.
As for turbo going kaput. If you do not idle when you start the engine, no matter swift or Punto, the life of the turbo will be shortened, as it will run without oil initially.

Now depending upon gear ratios, car weight etc., different mfrs will choose different torque/power maps for the engine. Two engine with same BHP may have totally different characteristics because of the rpm where max torque is produced.

As for detuning. If punto was 60bhp, I would think it to be detuned, but it produces almost same torque and power.
Infact this engine is very capably of 90bhp, and so 70bhp itself is a state of detune. Just changing the power map does not mean detuning.

Moreover, most engines are tuned to only a fraction of their capabilty. For example tata dicor can safely do 90bhp without any issues for the engine, its the gearbox which will give up. Beefier gearbox means more costs, so Tata stuck to a compromise.
In Fiat also, a 90bhp engine will not mean less life for engine, but it would mean changes to gearbox, which will push costs(Linea gbox will be more expensive).

Coming to the final point of which state of tune is better Swift or Punto?
Well my take is - there is no one answer. It depends on person to person. If you like the Hyundai verna like kick kind of driving, swiftD may be a better option, but if you want linear power delivery, punto maybe a better option.
Moreover most of us adapt to the car. After driving for a few months, you will not notice that the kick of one car is less or more.

Last but not the least, its been quite some time MJD has been in the market in the swift. How many turbo failures we have seen till now. Most of the swift issues have been gearbox related, and that too for petrol. So we can safely deduce that weak clutch thing has been cured to some extent in the Swift D.

Those of you interested in "power boxes" to push power to 90bhp, remember, if you make use of that extra torque often(full throttle driving), your clutch will give up earlier.

Last edited by tsk1979 : 10th August 2009 at 12:13.
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Old 10th August 2009, 12:19   #988
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Just a wierd thought

For the people who are owning Punto and want a Whoosh..!! like the Swift DDiS, cant the ECU of the Punto be configured with the parameters used by Maruti in the Swift DDiS through a person who is having enough knowledge about tuning the ECU parameters.

May be a Maruti-Suzuki Engineer who Works on these engines
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Old 10th August 2009, 12:53   #989
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Those of you interested in "power boxes" to push power to 90bhp, remember, if you make use of that extra torque often(full throttle driving), your clutch will give up earlier.
Tanveer,

What should be the avg life(kms) of a clutch in diesel cars with/without petes ?
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Old 10th August 2009, 13:15   #990
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gandhi View Post
Coming back to the original topic of this thread, that is Punto test drive.

Can anybody enlighten me if ride quality, handling, FE will be different for Active variant compared to Emotion Pk because of the difference in tyres?
Regarding the difference in ride quality and handling between the two, here is what I had posted in my TD report of the 1.2 :-

Quote:
Originally Posted by roms View Post
The suspension, which has been praised is so good, you actually have to drive it to believe it. I mean, after the super stiff suspension of the S10, this to me was heaven. If anything, the ride quality is even better than the Emotion variant due to the high profile 165/80 R14 rubber. Did not get to test its high speed handling, but it definitely wont be as great as the higher variants due to that tyre-wheel configuration.
Read more about that on page 48 of this thread. I dont think there will be a significant difference in the FE of Active and Emotion variants due to tyre profile itself.

Last edited by roms : 10th August 2009 at 13:17.
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