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Old 28th July 2010, 14:33   #541
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South Africa has higher levies than India so it is not a surprise that the fortuner is more expensive out there. The countries in contention were the Asia Pac countries like Thailand and Phillipines.

The main grouse that people had was that the price of Fortuner vs that of the Innova is further appart out here than in the mentioned countries.

It is really hard to compare the pricing in countries with high levies with ours and conclude if the company has been unfair to us.

N.devdath should be able to check this out too.
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Old 28th July 2010, 15:56   #542
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My take on the Fortuner is very simple. The top end Innova costs INR:12,10,482 while the Fortuner costs INR:19,43,340. The difference is around INR:7,32,858.

What are the advantages?
1. Bigger engine (I would add around 100k since the block is the same along with many other aggregates).
2. Simple yet reliable transfer case, lockable differentials, bigger tires and a low ratio gearbox.(INR 2.0-2.25 lacs going by the fact that the Borg Warner 4wd variants of the Safari/Scorpio cost around INR: 100000 more than their 2wd versions. Given below are the Scorpio prices from Carwale.

11,82,610-vlx 4wd airbag
10,86,792-vlx 2wd airbag

3. A very robust build since the vehicle is a pick up derivative(Hilux). (Around 100k over the Innova makes sense to me).

4. Ego boost, and lots of it. Tough to determine the monetary factor though but the pride of owning a premium SUV means at least a couple of lacs I believe. This also adds to the fact that among the other SUVs in the segment, the Fortuner is more frugal, reliable, has a better resale value and commands a higher level of respect amidst all and sundry.

So that adds up to 2+2.25+1 = 5.25 lacs.

Hence, my ideal pricing for it would be around 17 lacs ex showroom Bangalore.

Still, am I lusting for it? Hell, yes.
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Old 28th July 2010, 17:06   #543
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n.devdath View Post
3. A very robust build since the vehicle is a pick up derivative(Hilux). (Around 100k over the Innova makes sense to me).
IIRC, Innova too is based on Hilux platform. So, does that warrant 100K increase?

Agree with you that Fortuner is a very likeable vehicle. It is the lack of competition which is enabling Toyota to get away with the current pricing.
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Old 28th July 2010, 17:24   #544
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IIRC, Innova too is based on Hilux platform. So, does that warrant 100K increase?

Agree with you that Fortuner is a very likeable vehicle. It is the lack of competition which is enabling Toyota to get away with the current pricing.
Not just the platform, the panels, the claddings, the beadings, the doors(outside), the mounts, everything feels better than an Innova in terms of the "lasting/durability" feel. When manufacturers can charge close to same amount on different variants of the same automobile, 100k for a premium SUV in India by Toyota isn't really over the top.

But yes, deep down, somewhere, it IS overpriced.
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Old 28th July 2010, 19:00   #545
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Random responses:

Toyota Fortuner isn't overpriced, the entire Indian automobile ecosystem is overpriced if one goes above C segment cars. We are paying 50K USD equivalent for Fortuner - see what vehicles we can get in that price range elsewhere in the world.

Some companies bring CBUs (e.g. Maruti - the GV), and don't have any margin for reduction unless they assemble things here. Others take advantage of competitors' price structure, and make a healthy margin by offering a slight more VFM product (Fortuner).

Pajero Sport will be the direct competitor when it launches. However, I bet Fortuner will continue to outsell, given Mitsubishi's strategy in India and Toyota's brand equity in India (as a management professional, I am surprised at how the current Mitsubishi India team can get away doing what they are doing - in spite of having great products).

It is good to know (for those of us who have booked/are lusting after the Fortuner) that Fortuner is the highest selling SUV in South Africa (Prado is # 2) - in spite of cheaper alternatives. And that too after getting reports of rollover/accidents (for the previous version).

Re FE: there are many folks who take a passionate decision and shell out money for a dream vehicle - FE matters because we have opted for a stretch budget, and need to look at TCO (CapEx + OpEx, leaving out other factors such as resale). And it is not just us. See what is happening with the Indian MRCA (Multi Role Combat aircraft) RFP - previously, India paid less money for the initial purchase, but had to spend $$ on operating and maintaining some of the aircrafts. This is the first time IAF has given significant weightage to TCO while evaluating fighter aircrafts.

OT: is there any < 50L automobile in India that is as sexy as the Su MKI?

Last edited by nilanjanray : 28th July 2010 at 19:14.
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Old 30th July 2010, 10:47   #546
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Default Fortuner highway speeding?

I have come across a few Fortuners on the highways, and was surprised to see such a big vehicle driven fast and overtaking left and right e.g. a few times I was at 110-120 kmph on my SX4, and the vehicle just zoomed by maneuvering like a snake to overtake slower vehicles. Even when there is heavy traffic, somehow the Fortuner manages to get in front of smaller vehicles.

Possible reasons:
1. The torque curve makes instant overtaking a breeze (while others have to patiently wait for the right chance)
2. People give way when they see it coming behind them (presence, and I suppose a few folks know about the braking issues :-))
3. 'Master of the Highway'' driver mindset - with accompanying aggressive driving?
4. Perhaps the powerful headlights during night driving

Was a bit concerned about such high speed runs on non-empty roads, given the handling and the brakes (especially in traffic) - even after my testing on NICE Road.

Any feedback from the folks who have driven it extensively on highways and on long drives? Is the vehicle really that suitable for highway maneuvering at 100 kmph+, or do you think that the drivers were taking extra risk driving like that on crowded highways where vehicles were driving at 80-120 kmph?
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Old 30th July 2010, 11:03   #547
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nilanjanray View Post
Pajero Sport will be the direct competitor when it launches. However, I bet Fortuner will continue to outsell, given Mitsubishi's strategy in India and Toyota's brand equity in India (as a management professional, I am surprised at how the current Mitsubishi India team can get away doing what they are doing - in spite of having great products).
As you correctly said, I too feel that if Pajero Sport is positioned correctly with the 3.2 engine, it will be the ideal competition for Fortuner.

But I am almost certain that the boffins at HM Mitsu will screw this one up royally. After the Fortuner was launched both Captiva and Fordy Endy revised their prices to compete. Mitsu is still sitting on a high horse selling the out-dated and underpowered Pajero at 21 lakhs ex-showroom. I am not even sure if they have managed to make the Pajero 2.8 BSIV compliant, given how old the engine is. Due to the low power the vehicles final gearing is very short and the rpm is too high at high speeds when compared to the Endy or Fortuner.

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Originally Posted by nilanjanray View Post
I have come across a few Fortuners on the highways, and was surprised to see such a big vehicle driven fast and overtaking left and right e.g. a few times I was at 110-120 kmph on my SX4, and the vehicle just zoomed by maneuvering like a snake to overtake slower vehicles. Even when there is heavy traffic, somehow the Fortuner manages to get in front of smaller vehicles.
Safaris and Scorpios handle fine at 120 kmph so I don't see any issues with the Fortuner at this speed. Maybe at 140+ you need to be careful, but this is the same with any high GC and tall SUV.
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Old 30th July 2010, 12:50   #548
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I have had a look at the new Mitsubishi Pajero sport (Challenger out here) here in Australia.
It looks really great but all the road tests and reviews are really really bad.
The engine, handling and creature comforts have all got really bad reviews.
I guess in India HM will overprice it and a few will buy it to be 'different', however Toyota Forturner will be the better product.
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Old 30th July 2010, 15:48   #549
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@KMT:

In Australia you have a choice, but in India the Older Generation 2.8 Pajero was still being lapped up despite it's shotcomings. So if priced properly it will sell. Ford Endy has a bumpy ride due to leaf springs and poorly designed rear seats where you sit with your knees pointing to the sky, yet it sells in good numbers for it's class.
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Old 30th July 2010, 16:01   #550
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Originally Posted by nilanjanray View Post
Any feedback from the folks who have driven it extensively on highways and on long drives? Is the vehicle really that suitable for highway maneuvering at 100 kmph+, or do you think that the drivers were taking extra risk driving like that on crowded highways where vehicles were driving at 80-120 kmph?
You will see umpteen number of Scorpios, Safaris, Xylos and Innovas being driven crazier than cars on the highways since their drivers feel that sitting at a higher level and having a bigger vehicle gives them better control.
In my opinion, anything above 100kmph on a 2 lane highway and 120kmph on a 4 laner on most SUVs is an invitation to disaster.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4x4addict View Post
Safaris and Scorpios handle fine at 120 kmph so I don't see any issues with the Fortuner at this speed. Maybe at 140+ you need to be careful, but this is the same with any high GC and tall SUV.
Though I would stick to 120kmph on an average with such a high mounted vehicle. Anything post that and you are inviting danger is my opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KMT View Post
I have had a look at the new Mitsubishi Pajero sport (Challenger out here) here in Australia.
It looks really great but all the road tests and reviews are really really bad.
The engine, handling and creature comforts have all got really bad reviews.
I guess in India HM will overprice it and a few will buy it to be 'different', however Toyota Forturner will be the better product.
Can you please elaborate on the negatives people have felt please?
Moreover, Mitsubishi has gotten it all wrong with their service network, marketing and pricing strategies here, which adds to their woes.
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Old 30th July 2010, 17:19   #551
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The braking issue is more related to the spongy pedal feel, the Fortuner still has manages to stop in a lesser distance than Endeavour, Scorpio and Safari. For data please refer to various magazines braking data.

A SUV is meant to be driven in a different way compared to a sedan or hatchback. Due to long suspension travel and ladder chassis the SUV's have higher body roll and are prone to roll over if not driven properly. In Fortuner's case AWD helps it secure much more grip than the softly sprung RWD Endeavour, The Fortuner can carry much more speed in a corner without scaring the passengers compared to the Endeavour.
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Old 30th July 2010, 17:20   #552
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Hi Devdath, here are two reviews from popular reviewers-
http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/Ar...rticleID=68894
http://www.carsguide.com.au/site/new...enger_review21
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Old 30th July 2010, 17:25   #553
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^^ Just like the Endeavour and Fortuner, The Pajero Sport is also based on a Pick-up truck chassis, So please do not expect Pajero like Ride and Handling finesse. Most online reviews say the Pajero Sport has lacklustre ride and handling package.
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Old 30th July 2010, 19:08   #554
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Originally Posted by n.devdath View Post
Was doing some research on the pricing of the Fortuner wherein a few people had said that it is priced way below India in other countries but was a bit suprised by the facts that I was able to dig out going to the Toyota websites of Thailand, Malaysia, Philippines and South Africa.

It retails for around 406 500 South African Rand which converts to around 25 lacs INR.

Also, in Malaysia, the price is around 2,432,842.30 INR for the Innova engined 75BHP version.

The Philippines price is around 1,770,607.08 INR.

Which probably cements the fact that the Indian pricing is not hugely different. Please feel free to comment.

Conversion source:XE - The World's Favorite Currency and Foreign Exchange Site
Why did you not consider the price in countries where there in no taxation? The above countries taxation makes it difficult to give comparisons, since we are not aware of the tax component.
In middle-east there is very negligible taxation, so it gives a better perspective.
So, let us compare the middle east prices to innova and fortuner.
Now, these prices are of 4 years back, but what we are interested in is the difference in the pricing and not the pricing itself.
Innova 2.7 4cyl A/T : AED. 97,880/- approx INR.1,239,250
Fortuner 2.5 4cyl A/T: AED 99,697/- approx INR. 1,262,244
Fortuner 3.0 v6 A/T : AED. 109,989/- approx INR.1,392,257
All top spec prices.

So, this more represents what fortuner is worth w.r.t innova
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Old 30th July 2010, 20:54   #555
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Originally Posted by 4x4addict View Post
Safaris and Scorpios handle fine at 120 kmph so I don't see any issues with the Fortuner at this speed. Maybe at 140+ you need to be careful, but this is the same with any high GC and tall SUV.
I am talking about super aggressive snake like overtaking - not just normal driving at 120 kmph.

I think that driving at 120 kmph+ on Indian highways with traffic (i.e. no long empty stretches) is just not done unless you have fantastic handling and brakes - which you don't find on tall SUVs or MUVs. The tall S/MUVs - they do it, but put themselves and others at danger. All it takes is something to go wrong somewhere e.g. some stupid bike or bullock cart coming on the wrong side, or some guy trying to make a very optimistic u-turn from the other direction - you have to take evasive actions, and things go wrong.

The Fortuner (at least our Indian version with VSC) can't even handle a standard Moose test (crisis manuevering when something suddenly comes in front at a measly speed of 60 kmph) without rising on two wheels.
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