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Old 27th October 2010, 20:18   #451
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Originally Posted by prmd_cochin View Post
Not at this price, its retailing at twice Innova's price.
Fortuner definitely doesn't seem to be value-for-money at that price despite Toyota's after sales repute and product reliabiity. For companies to change their skewed pricing in India they need to stop selling in decent numbers.

Car manufacturers esp the foreign ones will always prefer to price their products higher in whichever markets they can provided there are no legislations or govt oversight to prevent them from doing so, whichever be the segment they are operating from. India at present is just a profitable cash cow for these companies with the govt of India ignoring oversight of these 'blade manufacturers' due to cash or favor. There needs to be a 'comparable price' legislation in place wherein automobile manufacturers are forced to price their cars within 15% margin of the price of their products in world markets after ofcourse local duty structures are taken into consideration.
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Old 27th October 2010, 21:32   #452
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Fortuner definitely doesn't seem to be value-for-money at that price despite Toyota's after sales repute and product reliabiity. For companies to change their skewed pricing in India they need to stop selling in decent numbers.

Car manufacturers esp the foreign ones will always prefer to price their products higher in whichever markets they can provided there are no legislations or govt oversight to prevent them from doing so, whichever be the segment they are operating from. India at present is just a profitable cash cow for these companies with the govt of India ignoring oversight of these 'blade manufacturers' due to cash or favor. There needs to be a 'comparable price' legislation in place wherein automobile manufacturers are forced to price their cars within 15% margin of the price of their products in world markets after ofcourse local duty structures are taken into consideration.
Couldnt agree more. As far as I know, the government has an extensive emission regulation program and encourages localization to provide employment to local businesses. On the flip side, I think the fact that the govt does not interfere in the car itself is also an attraction to car makers. The US is the land of the free but it has terrible restrictions on car makers. When I was in design school, we had a book by the SAE and they monitor EVERYTHING!! Its a huge headache but its the only way you can sell cars there. The EU NCAP is not that strict compared to the US NHTSA.

Coming back to the Fortuner, platform sharing is quite common in the industry but carmakers try to not make it that obvious. The problem with the Fortuner is that the inside looks exactly like an Innova, I dont know about you but that is very counter-productive IMO.

By the way does anybody know what exactly happens when ARAI receives cars for Homologation.? What "tests" do they perform on these cars? I wonder why they don't accept EU or US safety certificates.
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Old 28th October 2010, 01:36   #453
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Did any one get delivery of ARIA yet? I hope by now someone should have gotten delivery..

Can't wait for the first initial ownership review
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Old 28th October 2010, 08:37   #454
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For everyone saying that the Fortuner is priced close to the Innova in other markets - did you check which version of Fortuner? There is a 4X2 version as well. And I believe that the Torsen LSD is quite expensive (6L extra, I had read somewhere here).

I bought a Fortuner recently. I would have loved to buy it for 50% cheaper :-). But given the over inflated pricing of SUVs in this country, I didn't have much of a choice, did I? Either wait for a few years - hoping prices will come down or some category game changer will emerge at a cheaper price, or buy a pre-worshipped one, or just pay up. I paid up, cribbing all the while. But now that I have bought it, I don't even think about the price - if I do, I won't be able to use it the way I want to.

If the market conditions are conducive for companies to milk customers and make more money - especially for a product that is not targeting the bottom segments - why won't they? I hate it, but have to live with it. Only competition can lower prices or lead to cost structure/supply chain reengineering. And that competition is lacking at present.

Last edited by nilanjanray : 28th October 2010 at 08:39.
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Old 28th October 2010, 10:07   #455
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Originally Posted by nilanjanray View Post
For everyone saying that the Fortuner is priced close to the Innova in other markets - did you check which version of Fortuner? There is a 4X2 version as well. And I believe that the Torsen LSD is quite expensive (6L extra, I had read somewhere here).
Trapezio's post clearly outlines the versions as well, you are correct, they are 2wd versions, the base one being cheaper than the Innova top end version!

Having said that, here is the comparison of the Innova Top end with the Fortuner 4x4 -
  • Innova 2.0 V A/T - 1,064,000 baht
  • Fortuner 3.0 V A/T - 1,339,000 baht.
I really do not see any startling differential here, in fact its a pretty reasonable (and tolerable) difference. And in A/T. We'd be more than happy if Toyota in India gave us this differential

In case you want more options & prices -
Toyota Fortuner -Specifications
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Old 28th October 2010, 11:29   #456
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nilanjanray View Post
For everyone saying that the Fortuner is priced close to the Innova in other markets - did you check which version of Fortuner? There is a 4X2 version as well. And I believe that the Torsen LSD is quite expensive (6L extra, I had read somewhere here).
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Originally Posted by suman View Post
Trapezio's post clearly outlines the versions as well, you are correct, they are 2wd versions, the base one being cheaper than the Innova top end version!

Having said that, here is the comparison of the Innova Top end with the Fortuner 4x4 -
  • Innova 2.0 V A/T - 1,064,000 baht
  • Fortuner 3.0 V A/T - 1,339,000 baht.
Nilanjanray, as very correctly pointed out by Trapezio and Suman the Fortuner in India is priced atleast 3L more than the max price that it should command over the similarly specked Innova, even with 4X4.

We love it's exterior looks (inspite of not having a rear door mounted Tyre) and it's bigger than all the other 4X4's in that segment, and so have no option to pay up the steep hike over the Innova price, actually even the Innova is in that sense probably priced 1.5L too high, but it's still reasonable, but this coupled with the addtional 3L on the fortuner takes it to absurd hights,

While we say this, would like to add that Toyota have been playing it smart with opening and closing of bookings, they actually would possibly not have too much higher a wait list if they kept the bookings open, it too is a marketing gimic.

Yes the fortuner does what it does very well, and there are no exact alternatives in that segment and similar is the case with the Aria which too does not have too many exact alternatives either.

The Xylo could have taken the fight to the Innova with better ride control and better attention to interior quality, it was almost there and just fell short. Xylo is one example of a properly priced product, but we can guess in that segment quality matters, and that is why Innova sells in higher numbers though it is less value, it provides value in a different manner, and people are prepared to pay for it.

In the India of today, somehow the premium brands are tending to be those who provide reliable performance (not necessarily safer) over India's really horrible roads. That is the value than many are looking for and all Toyota's and the Honda City provide that.

We in India tend to book these so called reliable brands at salary levels at which in the US and Europe comparably people buy the entry level Mercs, BMW, etc.

After going this bit OTT

In summary, the Aria seems to have taken a leaf from Toyota and price the vehcile about 1.5L more that it should have for all the actual value that it provides, but it also serves as a brand ambassador to the TATA brand, so might fit into TATA's overall long term plans quite well.
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Old 28th October 2010, 11:33   #457
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I think this thread is unnecessarily taking a different turn. We were talking about the Aria and now we are discussing the Fortuner. I think this thread should be locked till some one has actually taken a test drive (other than GTO) or wait for the ownership report.
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Old 28th October 2010, 13:19   #458
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Actually I think that the Fortuner debate is relevant, at the end of the day we are debating the VFM of the Tata Aria vs its competitors and Fortuner is one of them. LBH, its hypocritical to call the Fortuner VFM when the Innova costs half as much. At least the Aria is an original design

I am in no doubt that Toyota are milking the "reliability" sentiments of the Indians and marking up the prices of their cars in a response to that. Any company would do that, Mercedes does it too. Having said that, Toyota cars are built well no doubt but its worth noting that PR has its role to play.

In this industry, perception is everything. Tata has learnt that the hard way, I think we all can agree on that.
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Old 28th October 2010, 15:12   #459
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In India, consumers are taken for a ride - and government doesn't care, especially for so called 'luxury' items such as cars.

We can huff and puff, but as long as there are enough people to pay whatever price the company charges, the company has little incentive to lower its profit margins - unless their analysis shows that they can make more money by reducing the price and getting more people to buy at the price point. In Economics, this is called price elasticity of demand analysis. Some carmakers get their analysis right, some get it wrong. Toyota got it right, and is enjoying fat margins at our expenses. We will have to wait and see what the market says about Aria.

I haven't seen or test driven the vehicle, so can't say whether I feel it is under/right/overpriced. I would prefer to see, touch, feel and drive before passing judgment.
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Old 28th October 2010, 15:32   #460
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suman View Post
Having said that, here is the comparison of the Innova Top end with the Fortuner 4x4 -
  • Innova 2.0 V A/T - 1,064,000 baht
  • Fortuner 3.0 V A/T - 1,339,000 baht.
I really do not see any startling differential here, in fact its a pretty reasonable (and tolerable) difference. And in A/T. We'd be more than happy if Toyota in India gave us this differential
Maybe Toyota is making fat profits from Innova in Thailand and less from Fortuner - and vice versa in India :-)

1339000 Baht is 19.88 lakhs in INR. Delhi ex showroom is 19.64 lakhs - prices seem to be at par (well, perhaps a little high in India, since we have a M/T). But not that big a difference. I don't know Thailand tax structure, so can't say to what extent Toyota is ripping us off here in India.

The South Africa pricing is 417300 Rands - which comes to 26.4L INR. But the SA 3.0 D4D has side/curtain airbags, and EBD/Brake Assist/VSC kit. Again, seems that Indian pricing is alright - relatively speaking.

I would have loved to have these additional safety features. Rather than the pricing, I am upset at Toyota for not offering these in India. Are Indian lives cheaper? Or do they expect that people will only do sedate mallroading with the Fortuner? Seems Toyota has done some cost cutting (while maintaining its margins) and is taking advantage of less rigorous safety laws and less aware consumers (general consumer, not Team BHPians).

Let's not compare with Gulf, or what we can get in the US for that $$.

My main argument: it is the current SUV market that is to blame for high pricing, rather than Toyota. If competitors can get away, Toyota will try and milk its brand equity. And will get away offering less features because the market will not hit back.

Last edited by nilanjanray : 28th October 2010 at 15:39.
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Old 28th October 2010, 15:54   #461
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Originally Posted by nilanjanray View Post
prices seem to be at par (well, perhaps a little high in India, since we have a M/T).
In my opinion, at the very minimum, there would be a price differential of INR 1.50 lacs between M/T & A/T in Base Prices - so on-road difference would be higher. I think, even if Toyota India acknowledged this & sold the current Fortuner at around 1.50 lacs lower ex-showroom today, people would stop cribbing. Period.

Now, here's where the Innova-Fortuner price comparison started - it was all about the same platform & hence not justifying double the price, even if the different engine & other add-ons were taken into account. So, we should benchmark the price differential with the Innova topend that's available in India. Add on INR 4 lacs (THB price differential is 2.75 lacs) to the top end Innova - the Fortuner is still way overpriced

Mind you, I do agree that -
Quote:
Originally Posted by nilanjanray View Post
Toyota will try and milk its brand equity. And will get away offering less features because the market will not hit back.
Isn't that the story of our lives

Last edited by suman : 28th October 2010 at 16:01.
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Old 28th October 2010, 20:21   #462
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Originally Posted by StarrySky View Post
Is the Aria also having a limited launch like the T-jet? I spend considerable amount of time in a Tata showroom last weekend (at Thrissur). Forget seeing the car, I don't remember seeing even a brochure or poster in the showroom for Aria. Does anyone know if Aria is on display at Concorde Motors, Cochin?
Definitely not limited launch. My friend in calicut checked out the Aria in showroom in the city few days back. Since Kochi is a bigger city, I think it will be very much available there too. Have you checked all dealers?


Quote:
Originally Posted by nilanjanray View Post

Let's not compare with Gulf, or what we can get in the US for that $$.

My main argument: it is the current SUV market that is to blame for high pricing, rather than Toyota. If competitors can get away, Toyota will try and milk its brand equity. And will get away offering less features because the market will not hit back.
We have to compare gulf prices because you get a fair idea of what the vehicle is truly worth without taxes(or very slight taxes as in gulf countries) and then we can understand what it is with indian tax structure. comparing one complex tax structure with another complex tax structure is not very easy

Anyway, I had given the pricing few pages back and NO 2wd fortuner versions are sold in that country.
Toyota Qatar - Home page
As you can see from the link both are 4x4 versions. So , your assumption is wrong. There are I4 and v6 petrol versions but both are 4wd.

Now why we are not mentioning other high priced suvs are because they are either cbu, or they do not have any other low priced product on the same platform. The innova has been on sale for quite a while and a lot of parts and platform itself in same, so there are lower investments which is not the case for other manufacturers.
And finally even with almost double the price, there are just bare safety features(2 airbag + abs).
My point is if Aria is considered overpriced, then fortuner is way too over-priced.

BTW, I really agree that this discussion should not be in aria test drive thread.
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Old 28th October 2010, 21:55   #463
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Interesting Conversation popped up between me and my aunt when she came over, while i was reading this thread-
Aunt-which vehicle?
Me-Its the new tata aria, its an Indian premium SUV, pricing is Damn UnTata-17-18 lakhs!!!
Aunt- Hmm,,,guess tata is trying to make up the loses on those 1 lakh Nano's its selling by pricing this so high....!!

i was like totally dumb struck!!!wow i didn't think that way!!! and no my aunt doesn't know a thing about automobiles!!!
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Old 28th October 2010, 23:01   #464
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Did any one get delivery of ARIA yet? I hope by now someone should have gotten delivery..

Can't wait for the first initial ownership review
Yes, I did have my vehicle delivered today. Will start my detailed ownership thread shortly (perhaps after the long weekend here in Bangalore - Monday/Tuesday).
The owners manual consistently talks about 4 variants - Pure/Pleasure/Prestige/Pride. Pure is only 4x2 and all other are available/planned in both 4x4 and 4x2 variant
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Old 29th October 2010, 05:38   #465
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Originally Posted by LobsterB View Post
Yes, I did have my vehicle delivered today. Will start my detailed ownership thread shortly (perhaps after the long weekend here in Bangalore - Monday/Tuesday).
The owners manual consistently talks about 4 variants - Pure/Pleasure/Prestige/Pride. Pure is only 4x2 and all other are available/planned in both 4x4 and 4x2 variant
Congratulations LobsterB on getting the ARIA. I believe, its time for you to update your signature area with it

Good luck.
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