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Old 7th November 2010, 11:14   #256
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Originally Posted by DrunkenMonk View Post
It isn't. If one looked at it as just a 115 bhp car, it is pricey. It costs 18% more than the Emotion pack petrol version.
.
The price increase for the T-Jet is not just for the engine. T-Jet Plus gets rear disc brakes, imported leather seats, better interiors etc. Also Fiat claims better A.S.S too for T-Jet.
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Old 7th November 2010, 11:18   #257
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@Drunken- ANHC is considered pricey because of the lack of features at that price.
Now, I don't really get what you mean by nuisance of a turbo.
The fact is that isn't just a 115bhp car. Do not go by the brochure and explore all the features offered by Linea and analyze them. Then come back with a fresh statement/judgment.
No company provides features for free.

"Turning radius"
Basically, a 4600mm long car can have a turning radius of 5.5m. Nothing exceptional or bad in this case. But, yes, it is subjective so you can say that it is large.

"Really is small on the inside..."
Not as spacious as ANHC but it isn't small IMO.
Not for a family of 6 footers. I'm 182cm tall but I can assure you that 6'0"-6'0" at driver seat+back seat is not uncomfortable.
The knees of the 6'0" guy at the back won't touch the driver seat in normal driving position.
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Old 7th November 2010, 11:49   #258
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Originally Posted by EARTHed View Post
The price increase for the T-Jet is not just for the engine. T-Jet Plus gets rear disc brakes, imported leather seats, better interiors etc. Also Fiat claims better A.S.S too for T-Jet.
Imported leather seats... from Timbuktu perhaps? The display and TD cars had pretty bad workmanship as far as leather was concerned (in Pune). As for A.S.S, I've enquired with both the dealer and Fiat on just how it will be better or at least different than the other models and Tata vehicles. No answer till date on that one.


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Originally Posted by PaddleShifter View Post
Now, I don't really get what you mean by nuisance of a turbo.
The fact is that isn't just a 115bhp car. Do not go by the brochure and explore all the features offered by Linea and analyze them. Then come back with a fresh statement/judgment.
No company provides features for free.
I've test driven the Tjet three times on three different occasions. And yes, I've studied and analysed (and good-heavens(!), even made a spreadsheet comparison) several cars in the same class. I went to the showroom for a TD on the 8th (the day Tjet was launched) with a checkbook in my hand. But I did _not_ book the car.

By "nuisance" I mean it's just another complication in the whole scheme of things that have the potential for failing. There are "cleaner" alternatives, especially for a car of that class.

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Originally Posted by PaddleShifter View Post
"Really is small on the inside..."
I'm not tall (5-8 perhaps) but probably my body is wonky. I could never get into a good comfortable position in that car. My knees kept bumping into the center console. Painful and irritating. It's claustrophobic inside. But then, with everybody saying only good things about the car, it must be me.
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Old 7th November 2010, 11:50   #259
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^^ Paddleshifter, I am 6'2" tall. I am not very concerned about the rear legroom in the Linea, but i find the rear roof to be low. It scrapes my head even when i am not sitting upright. The same happens in Cruze.

Personally, i do not have any use for the rear seat.
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Old 7th November 2010, 12:13   #260
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I agree with you on this .anshuman. The rear headroom is average with that sloping coupe like roof design. But, average Indians are not as tall as you.
Drunkenmonks's statement is more generalized.


@Drunkenmonk- So I hope you can post your spreadsheet here so that we can have a look at it as well. I would like to see what all features you have compared.
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Old 7th November 2010, 14:09   #261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrunkenMonk View Post
It isn't. If one looked at it as just a 115 bhp car, it is pricey. It costs 18% more than the Emotion pack petrol version. The turbo is just another nuisance from the reliability point of view, though it is a huge USP to draw the performance crowd. They could have put in a 1.8 or 2.0 liter NA engine with a revised gearbox for similar (or better) performance. Besides, it really is small on the inside, never mind the large turning radius and big bonnet and boot. The Honda City is considered pricey too, and it too is around 10 lakhs and has similar power.

.
18% higher price for 27% higher power, diesel like torque(41% higher than City), higher efficiency, five 16 inch alloys, wider tires, discs on all four wheels and still more features on a car already overflowing with D segment features CANNOT be termed as priceyby any stretch of imagination. Judging a car just by the peak power output and price is a highly skewed way of evaluation.

Regarding the turbo, I am yet to read about a turbo failure related issue in a Fiat in the forum till date. The point is, like every other part of a car, the turbo has to be taken care of. Use it wisely and it will serve you for long.

Regarding the turning radius, If people do not have any complaints about 5.3m turning radius of the City, how come the Linea with just 14cm increase in length and only a 20cm higher turning radius create so much trouble?

The Honda City and the Linea T-Jet is comparable in terms of peak power output, but the similarity ends there. Now people have only the A.S.S, fit & finish and spare parts availability to complain about. I agree to the fit and finish part, even though I am yet to find a loose end in my Linea, and also as per the drive reports in Team-bhp itself, the interiors of the leader of the pack in terms of sales i.e. Honda City are also nothing to write home about. Regarding the spare parts availability, most of the complaints have been about parts that are not commonly replaced which is not the case only with Fiat. Almost no other brand stocks such uncommon parts. But from what I have observed, it is the non owners who complain or speculate more about the A.S.S than real owners who are generally satisfied with the service. I for one have always received stellar service from Fiat and never has faced any spare part shortage. Of course there are one off cases reported in the forum but same can be found for other so called premium or popular brands as well. There was a poll also in team bhp where real owners had put their votes and a majority of them had rated the service as "above average". Mysteriously enough that thread seems to have disappeared from the forum or maybe I didn't search hard enough.

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Originally Posted by DrunkenMonk View Post
Imported leather seats... from Timbuktu perhaps? The display and TD cars had pretty bad workmanship as far as leather was concerned (in Pune)...

I've test driven the Tjet three times on three different occasions. And yes, I've studied and analysed (and good-heavens(!), even made a spreadsheet comparison) several cars in the same class.
From Timbuktu or not, they have had the courtesy of providing them in the first place unlike some other brands which demand the premium and then make their customers look like the king in the story"The Emperor's New Clothes".

Would you mind sharing the excel comparison, so that we could get your perspective.

Last edited by UKR : 7th November 2010 at 14:17.
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Old 7th November 2010, 14:28   #262
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They could have put in a 1.8 or 2.0 liter NA engine with a revised gearbox for similar (or better) performance.
Enough people have answered most of your points. I would just like to bring it to notice that a 1.8/2.0 ltr engined Linea might have been priced similar if not more due to excise limitations.
Additionally, the fuel efficiency would have dropped further.

All in all, it would be a terribly illogical move.

Turbos do increase complications, and engines are no longer DIYs as in the 800 days. But progress is necessary. There were similar concerns when Carbs were done away and the industry moved to electronic fuel injection.
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Old 7th November 2010, 14:36   #263
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Anybody knows when T_JET is going to be launched Pan India? I am waiting to see it in Chandigarh!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrunkenMonk View Post
Imported leather seats... from Timbuktu perhaps? The display and TD cars had pretty bad workmanship as far as leather was concerned (in Pune). As for A.S.S, I've enquired with both the dealer and Fiat on just how it will be better or at least different than the other models and Tata vehicles. No answer till date on that one.
I am not sure if it is wise to ask the sales manager or dealership/manufacturer about their own product.
I asked one Ford sales manager that I've read that Ford cars have high maintenance cost and I would like to have some idea about Figo spare parts prices. I got the following reply:
"No! Spare parts are available outside now. You can get them from outside". If I go by this, it means Figo has costly spare parts as well as the sales manager himself is recommending third party spares.

BTW, at least Linea comes with Leather wrapped Steering and gear knob and leather seats.
I'm seriously waiting for your spreadsheet to know what all you have missed.

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Originally Posted by UKR View Post
I have observed, it is the non owners who complain or speculate more about the A.S.S than real owners who are generally satisfied with the service. There was a poll also in team bhp where real owners had put their votes and a majority of them had rated the service as "above average". Mysteriously enough that thread seems to have disappeared from the forum or maybe I didn't search hard enough.
I think you are talking about the following thread:
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ers-speak.html (FIAT's A.S.S, let the real owners speak.)
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Old 7th November 2010, 16:20   #264
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Originally Posted by PaddleShifter View Post
I am not sure if it is wise to ask the sales manager or dealership/manufacturer about their own product.
I waited for more than an hour to meet the manager _after_ I requested the sales guys to give me a copy of the standard warranty, extended warranty, and insurance terms and conditions to see what all the fuss was about. You guessed it! They did not give me the information even after the manager asked the salesperson to copy it for me. How do they expect one to make a 10 lakhs purchase without furnishing full information? All the manager had to say was they would provide roadside assistance. But he also agreed that this was available across the board, from the Nano all the way to the 500. He admitted there was nothing special about the A.S.S. for Tjet.

As an aside, I also asked them for a list of freebies that was that was included in the "special" Tjet premium package (mentioned by the salesperson during my first TD, who made it sound like it was coming directly from Fiat). I did not get the list. The manager told me they would give the mud-flaps and that's about what I could expect. He would give a "special" discount on the floor-mats.

I kept getting frequent calls from Fiat as to when I was going to purchase the Tjet. My reply has been that the dealer has not given me the full information to make the purchase decision. I finally told them that I purchased the Honda Civic (lie!) to stop the calls.

Don't wait for the comparison... I don't think I'll post the XLS... I'll probably reveal more than I'd want to in a public forum. Suffice to say, it's a standard thing with all the details from a standard datasheet but all in one place for all models.

BTW, I'm seriously considering the Mitsubishi Cedia at this point (if it's still available) so you all know where I'm going with this. I currently drive a 14 year old Astra that I bought 2nd hand 10 years ago (now you see the urgency in me rushing for the Tjet!). That is the only car I've ever owned or driven. And that will always be the benchmark for me.
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Old 7th November 2010, 17:59   #265
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It is your personal matter regarding freebies etc. but there is a general trend of minimal/no freebies with a new product. I don't think Fiat is giving the "Free Insurance+4 years warranty+4years Roadside assistance package" with T-JET as of now.
You are right that you have the right to full information.

My discussion with you was continuing just on the part that you said that T-JET is overpriced without acknowledging the fact that it offers higher torque+ at least 20 additional features as compared to the benchmark of the segment (ANHC).
I'm not trying to establish the superiority of T-JET here or trying some fanboy stuff.
What I'm justifying till now is simply based on established proof and known facts.

The good thing about Team-BHP or any other public forum is that we reveal what is to be revealed.
Congratulation on the Cedia. I do hope that it is available as it definitely an amazing product.

Last edited by PaddleShifter : 7th November 2010 at 18:05.
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Old 7th November 2010, 18:24   #266
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Originally Posted by DrunkenMonk View Post
The turbo is just another nuisance from the reliability point of view, though it is a huge USP to draw the performance crowd. They could have put in a 1.8 or 2.0 liter NA engine with a revised gearbox for similar (or better) performance.

.
The world is moving towards extracting higher power from low capacity engines. Hence, the turbo versions, which give adequate power, better FE & much lower emissions.
Fiat is a forerunner in this. After the Multijet, their Multi Air & Twin Air engines have bagged the Engine of the year award in 2010. A 900cc engine gives out a 100BHP
If the performance of T-Jet does not satisfy anyone, he needs to look at cars in a higher segment. For this much money, you can't get more.
Add to it the phenomenal handling characteristics, oodles of features - 4 Discs, 205 tyres, leather trim, Auto AC, Blue & Me, My Car settings etc. etc.
- and you have a winner. A perfect masala for a blockbuster.
Now, it depends upon the distributors how much they can cash in on it.

The Tjet proved MUCH better than what i expected it to be
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Old 7th November 2010, 18:33   #267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrunkenMonk View Post
I waited for more than an hour to meet the manager _after_ I requested the sales guys to give me a copy of the standard warranty, extended warranty, and insurance terms and conditions to see what all the fuss was about.

As an aside, I also asked them for a list of freebies that was that was included in the "special" Tjet premium package.

Don't wait for the comparison... I don't think I'll post the XLS... I'll probably reveal more than I'd want to in a public forum. Suffice to say, it's a standard thing with all the details from a standard datasheet but all in one place for all models.

BTW, I'm seriously considering the Mitsubishi Cedia at this point (if it's still available)
Totally with you on this. It is your hard earned money and you have the right to demand/know 100% information about the product you wish to put your money on.

And congrats on the Cedia, it is a good car. Even though it is showing its age now, it is very spacious, well built, has a good chassis and looks like a proper sedan.
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Old 7th November 2010, 21:21   #268
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Default Went through the test drive report of Autocar as well

Their final verdict is 9/10 for TJet and some important statistics from Auto Car reg. the rear seat leg room and shoulder room.. all units in cm.

In my observation there is no great difference in terms of rear leg room and shoulder room with the competition. Only head room seems to be an issue..

Reg. comfort, in my 30k driving with my MJD (currently stands sold) 70% has been on the highway with 6-8 hrs of non stop driving sometimes.. both myself and the co-passengers (age group: 2 People: 60-75 yrs (mostly will sit in rear), 2 People: 25-35 yrs) have never complained of any fatigue..

I can share an exp. - I drove nonstop from Coorg to Chennai (close to 750kms) and immediately after reaching home went out again for a spin in the city.
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Fiat Linea T-Jet : Test Drive & Review-car-rear-dimentions.jpg  

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Old 7th November 2010, 22:11   #269
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My discussion with you was continuing just on the part that you said that T-JET is overpriced without acknowledging the fact that it offers higher torque+ at least 20 additional features as compared to the benchmark of the segment (ANHC).
You are absolutely right, too. But the extra features (and the overall package) just don't fit together well for me. The bottom line: I don't see myself driving the Tjet with pride or satisfaction.

There is the other thread in these forums about "knowing the man by the car he drives" See: http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...whats-car.html (Is a man known by the car he drives? Or What's in a Car?). The point they missed: People may buy the _same_ car for _different_ reasons. A well known owner of one of the top three IT companies turned up at our (government) office in an Indica several years back. He probably had Crores of Rupees dropping out of his ears. But he probably wanted to make a statement (and most likely used the Indica for that one visit too). It's just a sick game.
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Old 7th November 2010, 22:16   #270
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1.But the fact of the matter is what turns me off from Fiat cars in India is thier link-up with Tata for sales and services. There is nothing to brag about the Tata service centers . Most of the Tata service centers can't service or rectify faults associated with thier own cars to thier customers satisfaction, and then to expect them to do better on Fiat cars is motiveless. 2.Besides, if it were true that Fiat car parts were available easily in the open market for all. One would still consider Fiat cars, since we have our preferred mechanic to whom we can rely on service.
3.By the bye, one would really like to know : Why did Fiat gave up its authorized service centers so that it had to collaborate with Tata for sales and service?. Is there a thread on this topic on t-bhp?
1.Regarding Tata service:- I owned an Indigo Marina for three years and now a Linea Emo pack MJD for an year. At Chennai, my experience with Concorde, is good. After very service I get a call from their Pune or Bangalore office asking how was the experience and any issues not addressed, that too in Tamil! When an e mail is sent to customercare@tatamotors, the second day I get a call from Concorde inquiring about the complaint and a slot to bring in the car. When I visit Concorde, they attend immediately, give a realistic time estimate and give a transparent picture of the trouble. They have separate earmarked service executives and mechanics to attend to Fiat cars. In my last visit to Concorde Ambattur,I found that they also have a separate executive to exclusively to attend to "Dissatisfied customers", whose is very helpful. Even in Coimbatore, when I walked into Tafe Reach with an ABS alarm problem, the response was immediate and was settled within 30 minutes.
2. Fiat spares, of late are not an issue. I had renewed Rear wind shield of Fiat Linea (someone threw a beer bottle and broke it) - vehicle was taken in and was delivered on the third day. Once drove through a water logged under bridge even Scorpio and Tata Sumo were avoiding and turning back. Landed up with water ingress of sensors, "Check engine" warning, low pick up etc. Drove straight to Concorde, Ambattur. They repaired temporarily with an assurance that I will not face any problem.Rightly so, I could undertake a long drive of about 1200km (Chennai-Coimbatore and back) without a hitch. Concorde called up on receiving spares and promptly replaced, although, to me the car was appearing normal. Broken side view mirror was replaced in three days after I reported to them on telephone (cost Rs 30 for mirror and Rs 200 for decorative cup). Guys at Concorde promise me they can get any item immediately ex-stock or within 3 days (from Bangalore) and if it has to come from facoory, then within 7 days. 3. Regading earlier tie ups: I was told that Fiat's earlier tie - up was with TVS was not smooth and Tata is much better. My impression is guys at Tata are definitely making efforts both on ground and in the management level. Only thing is that you have to talk to the right person and tell clearly that you have come in with a Linea and are in no mood to wait.
Over all, my experience with Tata / Concorde is THUMS UP! I only feel sorry that they do not speak convent English and give me an inflated bill.
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