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Old 27th December 2010, 14:19   #196
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Default Re: Toyota Etios : Test Drive & Review

Got to see the car in flesh and boy it looks ugly. Spacious, roomy etc : all fine. But it is one flimsy car with cheap interiors and I am pretty sure when involved in a shunt the occupants are going to be at a huge risk of sustaining serious injuries.

All that the Etios is doing is giving the already arrogant Toyota Sales guys more reasons to be arrogant. Went to DSK Toyota to know more about the car, booking details, possible test drive etc. All that I get is an arrogant response "For test drive call us in January and if you want to book right now, go ahead and book it but we are not guaranteeing delivery time"

I am already having a hard time getting service appointments for my Innova. God knows what is going to happen after a bunch of Etios's line up outside the service station.

The 1.2 vs 1.5 engine debate is pretty useless according to me. It's got to be only about torque & power.
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Old 27th December 2010, 20:33   #197
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Originally Posted by amalji View Post
More than the cc, several factors determine the fuel economy. A well engineered 1.5 L engine can be as fuel efficient as the 1.2L. And a well engineered 1.5L engine with good gear ratio, if driven sensibly can produce even better mileage figures.

Baleno is a fun to drive car and at the same time gave very good mileage thanks to the excellent design, and the low end torque. I have not seen a petrol engine less than 1.5L spit out anywhere close to 132 Nm of torque ( I'm talking only about Petrol cars ). That too at a very low rpm of 3000! This is surely going to make this car a 'fun to drive car'in the city. In a country like India with high density population and not so great roads, the low end torque is a very sensible design from Toyota.

Really Can't understand how did you miss Linea Tjet here, it has got more torque than any other petrol car below 15 lakh i.e 207 Nm. I hope you do book Etios as you have been praising all along.

Altis is powered by a 1.8L engine ( much bigger than the Etios ) which spits out a very formidable 132 PS of power!

If you are referring to the diesel version of Altis, just try a test drive, ( make sure that you rev it hard enough to turn on the turbo ) and I'm sure you'll change your opinion. It's a very powerful engine, even though it's just 1.4L thanks to the excellent turbo. And low end torque comes by default with a diesel engine ( 205 Nm ). So, you don't need to increase the volume of the engine to produce a high torque at low rpm. It comes by default.

And when Etios gets a diesel engine, it would most probably be the same Altis 1.4 Diesel Engine with a reduced power ( 70 PS vs 89PS for Altis )
You seem to be a Toyota loyalist, nothing wrong in that but if i really talk about Etios, I didn't like it a bit, though i have always appreciated Toyota products but this is something which I am really not able to digest, interiors are designed with least taste and it seems while designing target audience was taxi segment. Nevertheless a car is never good and bad, it is always subjective and whosoever buys it, buys it for a reason.
But would like to point it out here, had it been some other car manufacturer, say Maruti, people would have thrashed them for making such a car which is flimsy etc etc.
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Old 27th December 2010, 23:00   #198
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Offering a Baleno like engine at a price of a Dzire and mileage that competes with India's best petrol engine, that too 1.2 l cannot be taken so lightly. Add to that, the Toyota reliability and brand value.
I would like to dwell a bit on the "reliability and brand value part of Toyota" a bit. If one were to think objectively it is easy to relate quality parts and quality process to be behind Toyota's reliability and then the brand value due to the reliability.

But in a budget vehicle where everything looks flimsy - from the sheet metal to the interiors to an old gen engine, I don't see any toyota brand value. At the same price point, if Maruti and TML and able to deliver a vehicle with better parts - read sheet metal, interiors, etc. I am not sure it augurs well for Toyota that one has to talk about past reputation to market this. But for a subjective customer, that might be the right strategy
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Old 27th December 2010, 23:21   #199
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You seem to be a Toyota loyalist, nothing wrong in that but if i really talk about Etios, I didn't like it a bit, though i have always appreciated Toyota products but this is something which I am really not able to digest, interiors are designed with least taste and it seems while designing target audience was taxi segment. Nevertheless a car is never good and bad, it is always subjective and whosoever buys it, buys it for a reason.
But would like to point it out here, had it been some other car manufacturer, say Maruti, people would have thrashed them for making such a car which is flimsy etc etc.
Yes, I'm a fan of Toyota ( and all Japanese cars ). And there is a reason for that. It's not because of the strength of the car or the way it looks ( exterior or interior ). The only reason behind my love for Japanese cars is engine performance and reliability ( Rarely do a Japanese car break down ). And it's designed to be serviceable.

With Toyota, I have noticed another advantage, and that is the ride comfort. Whether it's the Innova or the Altis, the ride comfort is superb. And from the review of GTO, it seems the ride comfort stays good for the Etios as well.

As you said, whether a car is good or bad is purely a subjective matter. For me, the mere performance and reliability is all that matters. Toyota hasn't compromised on those 2 aspects. The drive comfort is an added bonus. How good the plastic looks or how soft the plastic feels doesn't matter much for me.
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Old 28th December 2010, 00:08   #200
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Default Re: Toyota Etios : Test Drive & Review

I have some vibes on this car now:

1. As a driver I would love to have Good feedback, Handling, Peppiness and ride comfort.
Ride comfort is a long term thing and bad ergonomics and bad ride show ill effects after 2-3 years. Except feedback (steering and console meters) etios has it all.

2. If you love to be driven around, leg room and comfort if adequate, will be sought after.

So, no reason for a failure (enthusiasts and back seat alike).

No more digging at 1.2 v/s 1.5 though it would have been a feather in the cap for a engine made in India, made for india with lesser COx and NOx emissions. It will be a bad scene if people put 2.0 or 2.4 litres engine in a segment where 1.8 rules. We are not getting efficient. India has a potential to be a mass market and 70k or 100k cars with bigger engines is a "DISASTER" for an emerging market. If world's no. 1 does not think this, who will engineer that ? Is it only about beating the power-to-weight ratio for driving pleasure ?
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Old 28th December 2010, 00:19   #201
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Plenty of Etios bashing, here

Looks are subjective (anyways, if you are competing with Dzire and Manza, you dont need to be a looker!) - Not sure what folks who call the Etios ugly call the Dzire or the Ritz or the new Verna.

There's everything sensible to a car being engineered to be light weight - so long as high-speed stability, safety, build quality and functional value/ durability is not compromised. So far from what GTO says, there is nothing to suggest any of those have been compromised. Ownership reviews may eventually help here.

Lastly, light weight does not mean flimsy. None of the reviewers (GTO, Jaggu) have said that the vehicle sheet metal is not acceptable build (except for the boot lid) ... and non-premium interiors does not mean it is flimsy.

Am no Toyota loyalist, just expressing my opinion
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Old 28th December 2010, 08:10   #202
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Originally Posted by oxymoron View Post
Really Can't understand how did you miss Linea Tjet here, it has got more torque than any other petrol car below 15 lakh i.e 207 Nm. I hope you do book Etios as you have been praising all along.
Fiat produces some of the best built cars in India, but suffer because of the following factors.
  1. Lack of its own Authorized Service Centers. I don't know of any other car manufacturer who depends on another auto brand to do the service.
  2. Lack of peppiness in drive probably due to the fact that most FIAT cars are 30% to 40% heavier than the competition.
  3. Poor turning radius = bad city driving experience
  4. Poor fuel efficiency probably because it's heavier
  5. Design of the vehicles are in such a way that, servicing the vehicle is labour intensive

People buy the FIAT cars mainly for 4 reasons.
  1. The solid tank like build quality
  2. The stable ride due to the heaviness
  3. Safety
  4. "One class above" Looks

Unfortunately, the 4 disadvantages of FIAT is not something acceptable for me, and can hence never think of a FIAT.

Despite all that, the FIAT petrol T-jet is something that I'm eagerly waiting to test drive. The spec is too good. That would be my first experience of Turbo on a Petrol Engine.

And I hope, the ground clearance of T-jet is better than the Linea diesel variant which was not driveable on bad roads.

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Originally Posted by gshanky View Post
I would like to dwell a bit on the "reliability and brand value part of Toyota" a bit. If one were to think objectively it is easy to relate quality parts and quality process to be behind Toyota's reliability and then the brand value due to the reliability.
Toyota has not compromised on the heart - that's the engine and the gear box. Both should be ever reliable. Regarding the interiors, depends on people's choice. If looks are more important for a person, they should try another car. Etios is for an average consumer who loves performance and reliability with a good ride quality and interior space at a non-Toyota price.

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Originally Posted by devsoftech View Post
I have some vibes on this car now:

1. As a driver I would love to have Good feedback, Handling, Peppiness and ride comfort.
Ride comfort is a long term thing and bad ergonomics and bad ride show ill effects after 2-3 years. Except feedback (steering and console meters) etios has it all.

2. If you love to be driven around, leg room and comfort if adequate, will be sought after.

So, no reason for a failure (enthusiasts and back seat alike).
True. The center console is something I hate about this car, so is the single wiper. Toyota markets the center console as an advantage. But, I'm not able to digest it yet.

Regarding the feedback, I drive an Esteem with a hydraulic PS. It feels good. Not sure why EPS is bad. It's supposed to be a better technology, rt? I don't know of any cars that still use the HPS. I'm ignorant here.

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Originally Posted by devsoftech View Post
No more digging at 1.2 v/s 1.5 though it would have been a feather in the cap for a engine made in India, made for india with lesser COx and NOx emissions. It will be a bad scene if people put 2.0 or 2.4 litres engine in a segment where 1.8 rules. We are not getting efficient. India has a potential to be a mass market and 70k or 100k cars with bigger engines is a "DISASTER" for an emerging market. If world's no. 1 does not think this, who will engineer that ? Is it only about beating the power-to-weight ratio for driving pleasure ?
Not sure about the emission specs for the Etios. But, if really results in more emissions, then it's bad. Hopefully the engineers in Toyota are capable enough to produce a green engine even though the engine volume is on the higher side.

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Originally Posted by RoadTiger View Post
Plenty of Etios bashing, here

Looks are subjective (anyways, if you are competing with Dzire and Manza, you dont need to be a looker!) - Not sure what folks who call the Etios ugly call the Dzire or the Ritz or the new Verna.

There's everything sensible to a car being engineered to be light weight - so long as high-speed stability, safety, build quality and functional value/ durability is not compromised. So far from what GTO says, there is nothing to suggest any of those have been compromised. Ownership reviews may eventually help here.

Lastly, light weight does not mean flimsy. None of the reviewers (GTO, Jaggu) have said that the vehicle sheet metal is not acceptable build (except for the boot lid) ... and non-premium interiors does not mean it is flimsy.

Am no Toyota loyalist, just expressing my opinion
Spot on.

Last edited by amalji : 28th December 2010 at 08:16.
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Old 28th December 2010, 11:55   #203
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Originally Posted by RoadTiger View Post
Plenty of Etios bashing, here

Looks are subjective (anyways, if you are competing with Dzire and Manza, you dont need to be a looker!) - Not sure what folks who call the Etios ugly call the Dzire or the Ritz or the new Verna.

There's everything sensible to a car being engineered to be light weight - so long as high-speed stability, safety, build quality and functional value/ durability is not compromised. So far from what GTO says, there is nothing to suggest any of those have been compromised. Ownership reviews may eventually help here.

Lastly, light weight does not mean flimsy. None of the reviewers (GTO, Jaggu) have said that the vehicle sheet metal is not acceptable build (except for the boot lid) ... and non-premium interiors does not mean it is flimsy.

Am no Toyota loyalist, just expressing my opinion
First of all I am not sure how sensible Etios is? IMO it is a budget sedan from Toyota for Emerging markets (loosely in Toyota corporation's own words I guess). So may be it is sensible for Toyota and many indian buyers but may be not for non-emerging market (most of the world) buyers.

Then I am not sure where anyone mentioned light weight means flimsy. I also agree light weight does not mean flimsy. But if you read the review properly there are many flimsy parts like

1) Sun Visors
2) Single Viper
3) Pull type grab handles
4) Windows only roll down 65%
5) Center console and air con controls
6) Less insulation for rear wheel arches
7) Spare Wheel cover
8) Sun visors

I am no Toyota basher (I still own and adore my sc300), just keeping the record straight about Etios

Quote:
Originally Posted by amalji View Post
Toyota has not compromised on the heart - that's the engine and the gear box. Both should be ever reliable. Regarding the interiors, depends on people's choice. If looks are more important for a person, they should try another car. Etios is for an average consumer who loves performance and reliability with a good ride quality and interior space at a non-Toyota price.
Well, that is the problem I guess. For some it is the fundamentals that is important, for others interiors and ride quality is important and for others driving dynamics and for some other national pride and then Japanese brand for a few others. I am wondering when are we going to demand a complete car in every price point? I am not saying one should not buy non-ideal cars, but then please avoid talking up the car like it is the best thing ever.

One minor problem with Etios fundamentals is its (old) Engine - As per the review it is a buzzy engine over 4500 rpm and the insulation is also not so great and so you have a noisy/loud cabin.

I am not sure what an average customer wants, but I would like to assume every customer wants a trouble free car for starters. Also I would like to know what is a Toyota price?

Overall my biggest gripe is that Toyota could have done much better but they didn't because IMO they know Etios would sell very well since the Indian consumer is hooked to the brand. Forget Manza and Dzire for a minute, I would think Logan is better in some ways and on par in many other features with respect to Etios if you disregard the looks.

Last edited by gshanky : 28th December 2010 at 11:56.
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Old 28th December 2010, 18:16   #204
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Lets call a spade a spade. Even those who want to criticise can not somehow muster enough courage to disregard this piece of crap called 'etios' ! I was waiting for etios for so long ... but only to be disappointed later. I recently went to Toyota showroom to check it out. Must I say, I was very very disappointed. " bahut shor sunte they pehloo me dil ka " !!!
I dont know what Toyota thinks of Indians/Indian market. How could they make such dummy ( looks more like a mummy) and present to Indian buyer with the hope of selling it ? Perhaps they are not wrong either. Look how their Qualis sold by leaps and bounds ! Did anyone see a Qualis without alloys ? Those who did would know what I mean. That was a runaway success. Smitten by its success, here are they with an even uglier car.
Single and ineffective wiper, position of the dash, looks and build quality, everything is disappointing. This appears to be their BPL product ( Government builds colonies for BPL families this way :-( )
I asked the sales executive : So, who do you think will buy this crap?
Him : Plenty sir ! No problem. Even if there are none, we will sell this to our existing customers ;-) !
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Old 28th December 2010, 19:40   #205
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Originally Posted by deardaljit View Post
Lets call a spade a spade. Even those who want to criticise can not somehow muster enough courage to disregard this piece of crap called 'etios' ! I was waiting for etios for so long ... but only to be disappointed later. I recently went to Toyota showroom to check it out. Must I say, I was very very disappointed. " bahut shor sunte they pehloo me dil ka " !!!
I dont know what Toyota thinks of Indians/Indian market. How could they make such dummy ( looks more like a mummy) and present to Indian buyer with the hope of selling it ? Perhaps they are not wrong either. Look how their Qualis sold by leaps and bounds ! Did anyone see a Qualis without alloys ? Those who did would know what I mean. That was a runaway success. Smitten by its success, here are they with an even uglier car.
Single and ineffective wiper, position of the dash, looks and build quality, everything is disappointing. This appears to be their BPL product ( Government builds colonies for BPL families this way :-( )
Dude, Qualis was ugly, no second thought about it but the success is very well deserved. It still fetches one of the best sale value in second hand market. Coming back to Etios, you can't expect Toyota Altis level of quality in 6 lacs rupee car. If Toyota provides that same quality then price would be like Honda Jazz and then people start bashing on High Price. People has to understand that Etios is pitted against Swift Dzire and Manza. None of the products are having best quality interior. IMO, Etios is not flashy looking at all but it ticks all boxes correctly for a middle class family.

Last edited by Jaggu : 28th December 2010 at 20:02. Reason: Fixing Quotes
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Old 28th December 2010, 22:15   #206
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@gshanky - I guess you mean cost-cutting when you refer to 'flimsy' parts listed from 1 to 8. Also, if Toyota wanted to rely only on the brand they would have introduced the Yaris or some other such model, long back - Instead, they invested time in figuring out what the Indian customer wanted and built the car from scratch over 4 years.

You might think introducing a product that works in the 'developed' markets in India is a great thing (Honda is often referenced as someone who provides India with the same models as elsewhere) ... but Toyota's approach of customizing a product to the needs of Indian customers is praiseworthy, as an overall business strategy (whether or not, we as t-bhp users agree is a different matter ... btw, if us t-bhpians were to really matter in deciding fortunes of a car, Fiat may have been the largest selling mfr in India )

Fact is Toyota is being customer-focussed and if there is a fault, it is with us as a 'regular Indian customer' community who expect mileage, mileage, mileage, reliability, no-hassle car even it if comes in a none-too-glamorous and boring avatar.
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Old 28th December 2010, 22:39   #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gshanky View Post
First of all I am not sure how sensible Etios is? IMO it is a budget sedan from Toyota for Emerging markets (loosely in Toyota corporation's own words I guess). So may be it is sensible for Toyota and many indian buyers but may be not for non-emerging market (most of the world) buyers.
No one is debating that. It's a product made with one constraint kept in mind - "The cost". And I'm satisfied with the way, they managed to make a Toyota product without compromising on their specialty - space, comfort and performance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gshanky View Post
Then I am not sure where anyone mentioned light weight means flimsy. I also agree light weight does not mean flimsy. But if you read the review properly there are many flimsy parts like

1) Sun Visors
2) Single Viper
3) Pull type grab handles
4) Windows only roll down 65%
5) Center console and air con controls
6) Less insulation for rear wheel arches
7) Spare Wheel cover
8) Sun visors
Except for the single wiper and the center console, the other factors you mentioned are not big deals for the average consumer.

Even for the center console, I don't think Toyota did that to make the car cheaper. If that was the case, then the Tata Indica would have been equipped with a center console and the Vista with a driver side console. But, it's exactly the opposite. And Toyota says it's safer to have the console at the center. Not 100% sure about the logic. But, do not think, Toyota will lie to its customers as well. ( Personally, I'm not in favour of the center console )


Quote:
Originally Posted by gshanky View Post
I am no Toyota basher (I still own and adore my sc300), just keeping the record straight about Etios
The one thing that the Etios might do is to bring down the premium image of the brand among the current owners of Toyota just because Toyota designed a car for the common man ( Aam Aadmi ).

Quote:
Originally Posted by gshanky View Post
Well, that is the problem I guess. For some it is the fundamentals that is important, for others interiors and ride quality is important and for others driving dynamics and for some other national pride and then Japanese brand for a few others. I am wondering when are we going to demand a complete car in every price point? I am not saying one should not buy non-ideal cars, but then please avoid talking up the car like it is the best thing ever.
Quality comes at a price. It'll be costlier for Toyota to create a car with the same features that a TATA gives. And that's because of the stringent quality control measures taken by the Toyota plus the highly paid employees. Plus the excellent serviceable design they employ on a car and after sales care.

Now, to produce a car at the same price level as the volume market demands, Toyota might have had different options like
  1. Creating a new low cost brand with lowly paid staff, cheaper equipment for manufacture and then offer all the features that a TATA or Maruti offers
  2. Compromise on performance and give a feature rich car
  3. Get the fundamentals right - Driving comfort, space, drive dynamics and compromise on features that are not too important to cut down costs

The 3rd option is exactly what Toyota took, and I'm glad that Toyota did not go for options - 1 or 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by gshanky View Post
One minor problem with Etios fundamentals is its (old) Engine - As per the review it is a buzzy engine over 4500 rpm and the insulation is also not so great and so you have a noisy/loud cabin.

I am not sure what an average customer wants, but I would like to assume every customer wants a trouble free car for starters.
Now, come on. How much % of time do you think, a normal driver will drive above 4500 rpm ? It's going to be 0.001% or less. It's in the low rpm ranges that the car is going to work for more than 99% of its time. And that's what exactly Toyota has given priority for.

Quoting GTOs statement here

"Toyota has evidently tuned the engine for driveability & fuel-economy instead. Nevertheless, thanks to the Etios’ light weight, it enjoys the best power-to-weight ratio of the segment. The Etios also makes more torque than the Dzire & Manza, and at a substantially lower rpm.

The car settles into a very refined idle. Get moving and you’ll be left pleasantly surprised at the driveability on tap. Torque delivery from low rpms is phenomenal, easily the best in class. The 2nd gear can effortless pull the car from crawling speeds, as can the 3rd from as low as 20 kph. Depending on the traffic density, you could use either the 2nd or 3rd ratios like an automatic within the city. The Etios can even pull away from a speed-breaker in 2nd itself, a situation where most other cars require a downshift to 1st. Point worth noting : Shift into 5th gear a little over 50 kph, and the engine doesn’t complain. The Etios is extremely tractable and makes light work of driving about in urban conditions; you won’t be working the gear lever as often as in most other petrol cars. Keep the magic pedal buried and the Etios responds with decent pep for a sedan with 89 BHP on tap. It’s fast enough by segment standards, while the mid-range is punchy for highway overtaking as well."


It's after this that he mentioned about the buzziness of the engine after 4500 rpm. So, why would we want to ignore the good work done for the most common driving conditions and talk about an improbable 4500 rpm for most customers.


Quote:
Originally Posted by gshanky View Post
I am no Toyota basher (I still own and adore my sc300), just keeping the record straight about Etios
The one thing that the Etios might do is to bring down the premium image of the brand among the current owners of Toyota just because Toyota designed a car for the common man ( Aam Aadmi ).


Quote:
Originally Posted by gshanky View Post
Also I would like to know what is a Toyota price?
Easy answer. Normally Toyota products in India sell at a higher price than the segment competition. They have changed it with the Etios.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gshanky View Post
Overall my biggest gripe is that Toyota could have done much better but they didn't because IMO they know Etios would sell very well since the Indian consumer is hooked to the brand. Forget Manza and Dzire for a minute, I would think Logan is better in some ways and on par in many other features with respect to Etios if you disregard the looks.
Logan is a good car. But, the engine is not as refined as the Toyota. Nor is the service anywhere as good. These factors comes at a price.
And Toyota could have created a Jazz or ANHC which is inaccessible to most customers. I believe, that was not what Toyota was targetting with the Etios.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrous Power View Post
Dude, Qualis was ugly, no second thought about it but the success is very well deserved. It still fetches one of the best sale value in second hand market. Coming back to Etios, you can't expect Toyota Altis level of quality in 6 lacs rupee car. If Toyota provides that same quality then price would be like Honda Jazz and then people start bashing on High Price. People has to understand that Etios is pitted against Swift Dzire and Manza. None of the products are having best quality interior. IMO, Etios is not flashy looking at all but it ticks all boxes correctly for a middle class family.
Indian consumers give priority to reliability and durability more than the looks. We don't throw away a car after 3 years of use. And that's the reason why Qualis was a hit. It was indeed a very reliable and durable car.

Last edited by amalji : 28th December 2010 at 22:48.
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Old 28th December 2010, 23:24   #208
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@Amalji - All great points. Now, you ARE one Toyota loyalist !
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Old 28th December 2010, 23:50   #209
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Originally Posted by amalji View Post
No one is debating that. It's a product made with one constraint kept in mind - "The cost". And I'm satisfied with the way, they managed to make a Toyota product without compromising on their specialty - space, comfort and performance.
Since we are discounting looks, for the same cost if TML and MS can make better interiors, why can't Toyota?. Agreed that the engine, gearbox combination could be better than Manza but I am not sure it would be that much expensive than Manza. So I can derive that Toyota is looking for better margins just by combining some old (re-engineered) components. May be it is nothing wrong, but I would like to be a demanding customer who wants Toyota to put the best foot forward.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amalji View Post
Except for the single wiper and the center console, the other factors you mentioned are not big deals for the average consumer.
I would like to request you to stop being the representative of "average consumer". Lets start talking for ourselves first and then see if it suits others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amalji View Post
Even for the center console, I don't think Toyota did that to make the car cheaper. If that was the case, then the Tata Indica would have been equipped with a center console and the Vista with a driver side console. But, it's exactly the opposite. And Toyota says it's safer to have the console at the center. Not 100% sure about the logic. But, do not think, Toyota will lie to its customers as well. ( Personally, I'm not in favour of the center console )
I am not sure about you, but I recall that Indica's center console is to accommodate the LHD and RHD markets and thereby saving money to make additional console. Toyota followed the same concept. And Toyota has been fined in USA for LYING.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amalji View Post
The one thing that the Etios might do is to bring down the premium image of the brand among the current owners of Toyota just because Toyota designed a car for the common man ( Aam Aadmi ).
You are joking right? Toyota was never known as a premium brand. They do have a separate brand called Lexus to sell premium cars. Toyota wants to come across as premium in India just by jacking up the prices and also the indian market seems to follow. But in my mind I am crystal clear that "Toyota is not a premium brand". If it were, then what is Mercedes? Super premium?

Quote:
Originally Posted by amalji View Post
Quality comes at a price. It'll be costlier for Toyota to create a car with the same features that a TATA gives. And that's because of the stringent quality control measures taken by the Toyota plus the highly paid employees. Plus the excellent serviceable design they employ on a car and after sales care.

Now, to produce a car at the same price level as the volume market demands, Toyota might have had different options like
  1. Creating a new low cost brand with lowly paid staff, cheaper equipment for manufacture and then offer all the features that a TATA or Maruti offers
  2. Compromise on performance and give a feature rich car
  3. Get the fundamentals right - Driving comfort, space, drive dynamics and compromise on features that are not too important to cut down costs
The 3rd option is exactly what Toyota took, and I'm glad that Toyota did not go for options - 1 or 2
Toyota quality took an international beating this year. So, I would like you to slow down on beating the quality drum. I don't know if pay scales in Toyota and Maruti vary much and even if it did I don't agree that they relate to quality. Quality is related to the process and every company that has mature products has their own quality control process. In Toyota's favor till now they have been building cars that have been built elsewhere and so they would more or less have to follow the previously matured quality process (similar to dubbing/remaking a movie if you will). In this case Etios seems to be a car made in and for India. So, they may have to create new quality processes specific to Etios. We'll have to wait and see how that really turn out. Though I might be willing to give benefit of doubt to Toyota in terms of a quality product I am not satisfied about the package other than fundamentals.


Quote:
Originally Posted by amalji View Post
Now, come on. How much % of time do you think, a normal driver will drive above 4500 rpm ? It's going to be 0.001% or less. It's in the low rpm ranges that the car is going to work for more than 99% of its time. And that's what exactly Toyota has given priority for.

Quoting GTOs statement here

"Toyota has evidently tuned the engine for driveability & fuel-economy instead. Nevertheless, thanks to the Etios’ light weight, it enjoys the best power-to-weight ratio of the segment. The Etios also makes more torque than the Dzire & Manza, and at a substantially lower rpm.

The car settles into a very refined idle. Get moving and you’ll be left pleasantly surprised at the driveability on tap. Torque delivery from low rpms is phenomenal, easily the best in class. The 2nd gear can effortless pull the car from crawling speeds, as can the 3rd from as low as 20 kph. Depending on the traffic density, you could use either the 2nd or 3rd ratios like an automatic within the city. The Etios can even pull away from a speed-breaker in 2nd itself, a situation where most other cars require a downshift to 1st. Point worth noting : Shift into 5th gear a little over 50 kph, and the engine doesn’t complain. The Etios is extremely tractable and makes light work of driving about in urban conditions; you won’t be working the gear lever as often as in most other petrol cars. Keep the magic pedal buried and the Etios responds with decent pep for a sedan with 89 BHP on tap. It’s fast enough by segment standards, while the mid-range is punchy for highway overtaking as well."


It's after this that he mentioned about the buzziness of the engine after 4500 rpm. So, why would we want to ignore the good work done for the most common driving conditions and talk about an improbable 4500 rpm for most customers.
I only mentioned what was written. Never did I say people will drive in the 4500 rpm band more than x% of time. That is something you are speculating. I only mentioned the buzzy engine to say that it is a old gen engine unlike the competition which all seem to have new gen engine.


Quote:
Originally Posted by amalji View Post
The one thing that the Etios might do is to bring down the premium image of the brand among the current owners of Toyota just because Toyota designed a car for the common man ( Aam Aadmi ).
I don't consider Toyota as a premium brand. I have explained with bit more detail above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amalji View Post
Easy answer. Normally Toyota products in India sell at a higher price than the segment competition. They have changed it with the Etios.
And I don't think they deserve the higher price because they don't charge the high price internationally. And in case of India, they are being opportunistic. Though that is not a mistake, consumers justifying high price for Toyota would be a mistake IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amalji View Post
Logan is a good car. But, the engine is not as refined as the Toyota. Nor is the service anywhere as good. These factors comes at a price.
And Toyota could have created a Jazz or ANHC which is inaccessible to most customers. I believe, that was not what Toyota was targetting with the Etios.
For what it is worth, ANHC is at a segment above Etios, Manza, Dzire and Logan. So let's try to stick to the respective segment of discussion. So, I assume you mean that the Logan engine is un-refined because it is noisy at higher rpms? . That sounds a bit familiar to me. Here is an excerpt from Tbhp test drive about logan

Quote:
Power comes from three engine options. Starting the range is a 1.4 liter 75 BHP “lazy” petrol engine which is best left for urban commuting. The 1.4 is utilitarian in design and performance; it is to be considered only if you are on a strict budget. It's bigger brother - the 1.6 liter 85 BHP petrol – offers better pep and far better driveability for daily usage. Owners report that the performance is adequate, but the motor can get noisy at higher rpms.The star of the Logan show is undoubtedly the 1.5 liter 65 BHP diesel engine, which has gone on to become the most popular in India. This motor is amongst the most modern from this segment and delivers impressively on the driveability and refinement factors.
So, leaving the diesel engine out, the 1.6 L petrol seems to be at par with Etios. Please correct me if I am wrong here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amalji View Post
Indian consumers give priority to reliability and durability more than the looks. We don't throw away a car after 3 years of use. And that's the reason why Qualis was a hit. It was indeed a very reliable and durable car.
I completely agree. But shouldn't a car maker continuously strive to give better products? Qualis was an old model that Toyota used to set foot in indian market. After more than a decade they are still using the same strategy to bringing old stuff from other markets for India, which to me does not seem very attractive.

I do agree that in fundamentals Etios is definitely better than Manza. But not so much in regards to Dzire and Logan.

Last edited by Amartya : 29th December 2010 at 10:58. Reason: Removed one small reference to Google :).
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Old 29th December 2010, 00:01   #210
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Default Re: Toyota Etios : Test Drive & Review

These are exactly the same reviews and comments people had when Qualis was launched, Some called it a shoe box, some called it a tin box, And what it proved to be is well known, Sir it is a Toyota they do a lot of research and then launch a car, They will again prove us wrong the way they did with Qualis and Innova
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