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Old 6th January 2011, 18:13   #136
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Default Review

Quote:
Qouting SPIKE ARRESSTOR

Does CMVR cover poor driving position? Arka, driving position of Thar and all Boleros is the same. Everyone here knows many parts for Thar has been shared with Bolero, so is the seat and the seating position. If it was that horrible Bolero would never sell 70000 a year!

The Orginal Driving position of the MM540/MM550 is barely manageable, because at least the seats are aligned with the footwell and the steering is off-centre to the LHS, this position is very unforgiving in a Manual Steering and barely noticeable in a PS. Arka, have you checked the DI variant, please have a look and share your comments.

There is no confusion The Channel welded under the Original Body Mount of the MM540(Since 1985) is a BODY LIFT.

Hahaha, in your earlier post I thought you were joking. THAT IS NOT A BODY LIFT, THAT IS A REINFORCEMENT CHANNEL WELDED TO STRENGTHEN THE BODY IN THAT AREA. Someone on the forum raised a query that a nut / bolt is missing in this particular body mount, do you know the reason why? BECAUSE IT HOUSES A FLOATING NUT INSIDE IT!

http://www.team-bhp.com/carpics/mahi...ah-thar-01.jpg

If people like me Talk IFS your reply in Quantum Mechanics, I'm waiting to learn a new theory.

Please explain as to why it is like that. Because, I remember the proverb "You can take a horse near water, but can never force it to drink" Everyone here knows the advantages / disadvantages of an IFS / Solid Axle, why are you continuously harping on this?

Does CMVR/ARAI prevent you from fitting a Sump/crankcase Guard? Let me rephrase this query of yours:- You have all the money to throw away stock tyres and fit it with Mudzillas and stuff, then why not a Sump guard made of 3-4 mm thick gauge steel? Is it that costly?



Hi Spike,

Between the Bolero & Thar is the Body and Chassis the same? So How can the Body Position wrt the Steering wheel be the Same?

The reinforcement is a convenient BODY LIFT, AFAIK the older MM540's used a floating bolt to hold the body bed.

wrt. to a Sump Guard - if that is your answer I guess you expect the customer to do up the interiors.

Also it shows a lack of understanding of basic requirements in a 4x4 vehicles, and the POOR execution normally associated with M&M.

Regards,

Arka

PS - I'm still waiting for the new theory in Quantum Mechanics

Last edited by Jaggu : 6th January 2011 at 19:11.
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Old 6th January 2011, 18:21   #137
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Default Re: Mahindra Thar : Test Drive & Review

Spike. We do not need to know your excuses in not doing things right. These comments are for the guys who should give you a budget to do the things right. But I guess you will not get any.

Ignore these people. Let us see how many people buy the Thar. Do they have a choice anyway?

As you said, money speaks. Hoping that this becomes a commercial success.
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Old 6th January 2011, 19:00   #138
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Default Re: Mahindra Thar : Test Drive & Review

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Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Hi Spike,

Between the Bolero & Thar is the Body and Chassis the same? So How can the Body Position wrt the Steering wheel be the Same? Body (full) and Chassis need not be same for keeping the steering cum seating position same.

The reinforcement is a convenient BODY LIFT, AFAIK the older MM540's used a floating bolt to hold the body bed. I reiterate, it is not a body lift!

PS - I'm still waiting for the new theory in Quantum Mechanics
My reply in bold above^^ . No intentions of sharing the new theory as you are a very poor student :-P

Quote:
Originally Posted by pjbiju View Post
Spike. We do not need to know your excuses in not doing things right. These comments are for the guys who should give you a budget to do the things right. But I guess you will not get any.

Ignore these people. Let us see how many people buy the Thar. Do they have a choice anyway?

As you said, money speaks. Hoping that this becomes a commercial success.
Biju, I have no intentions of giving any excuse to anyone. I just spoke the truth, if that is taken as an excuse, please pardon me.

Spike :-)

Last edited by Amartya : 6th January 2011 at 23:21. Reason: Kindly avoid being confrontational. Thanks.
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Old 6th January 2011, 19:04   #139
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Default Re: Mahindra Thar : Test Drive & Review

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Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Let me give you another example. This is what you want, the AC. Personally, I would want it too. I have mentioned time and again that the vehicle is “AC ready”. It is a conscious decision to introduce the vehicle in “AC ready” configuration because please remember that everything finally comes at a cost. As the vehicle is “AC ready”, we have already given you the AC ducts, the AC blower motor, the AC cooling coil housing, an idler pulley in place of the compressor, the cutouts required in the dash panel to incorporate the AC pipes etc. All these parts are already fitted on the vehicle as standard equipment. Their cost is included in the cost of the base vehicle. Now, read carefully.
Hi BD
If I understood you correctly, you are saying that the only reason AC was left out was to keep the price below a certain target. In that case, why not offer 2 versions.. sada and hi-end. Put AC+HT on the hi-end version. People will pick and choose what they want.

Fitting an integrated, embedded and interwined system like an AC is best done at the factory level. You end up with better quality, realibility and cheaper. Its not a simple bolt on item like a bull bar.
Also, what happened to the Roplas top supplier that we used to see 20 years ago??
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Old 6th January 2011, 19:20   #140
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Default Review

Quoting SPIKE ARRESTOR

Between the Bolero & Thar is the Body and Chassis the same? So How can the Body Position wrt the Steering wheel be the Same? Body (full) and Chassis need not be same for keeping the steering cum seating position same.

The reinforcement is a convenient BODY LIFT, AFAIK the older MM540's used a floating bolt to hold the body bed. I reiterate, it is not a body lift!

Also it shows a lack of understanding of basic requirements in a 4x4 vehicles, and the POOR execution normally associated with M&M.


Hi Spike,

Which vehicle has more Cabin Space? Bolero or Thar? is the Layout of the Gearbox Shield/Cover Identical, is the B-Pillar Same?

While you can centre the seats to the Steering Column other things will foul, as they have.

Isn't it sheer co-incidence that the Reinforcement just happens to be under the "Original Body Mounts"

Please post additional pics of the body mounts & reinforcement, and I will stand corrected.

http://www.team-bhp.com/carpics/mahi...ah-thar-01.jpg

Now calm down and tell me why you have missed out the Sump Guard, or did I catch you off-guard

Regards,

Arka



Last edited by Amartya : 6th January 2011 at 23:23. Reason: Editing this post since the quoted post was edited. Thanks.
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Old 6th January 2011, 19:23   #141
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Default Re: Mahindra Thar : Test Drive & Review

Now that I have been posted out of India, Mahindra Thar is launched. Murphy at his best.

This idea just came to me while we are talking about commonality with Bolero parts. If I can have the following items from the Bolero on the Thar, I will buy it tomorrow.

1. Bolero AC - It's after all the best in class
2. Bolero Attitude Hard Top from Mahindra Customisation

3. And maybe a Sport Lid from Carry Boy types. Keep my cargo safe.

I wrote to GM Mahindra customisation once about my intention to restore a 550XD and if he could help me with the Bolero Attitude hard top. He mentioned that it could not be possible to do so, but I am not convinced. Something similar can definitely be done.

I don't claim to be a purist in off roading. But I see ample potential in the Thar as a personal vehicle. The Safari can be for "family" duty (getting married next week)..
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Old 6th January 2011, 19:36   #142
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Default Re: Mahindra Thar : Test Drive & Review

Amazing review, needless to say as everyone from Newbie to Distinguished and Mods have commented. IMHO, I learnt a lot about Offroading and basic Offroaders via this review. Thanks guys.
I would be really pleased to have another input-log from Allan (most sough after mod'r here) since he'll soon be doing up Speedy's Thar. Would love to read the mod-ability of it since most of the 4x4 section is full of posts containing mods and build-ups. How this one fares across from a normal no-mod review to all the way a superbly mod'd one. Keenly awaiting.
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Old 6th January 2011, 19:36   #143
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Talking Re: Mahindra Thar : Test Drive & Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Which vehicle has more Cabin Space? Bolero or Thar? is the Layout of the Gearbox Shield/Cover Identical, is the B-Pillar Same? Whatever be different, as long as the position at which your steering column and seats are mounted remains the same your seating position remains the same, no matter what changes are done to the environment.

Isn't it sheer co-incidence that the Reinforcement just happens to be under the "Original Body Mounts" NO

http://www.team-bhp.com/carpics/mahi...ah-thar-01.jpg

did I catch you off-guard :- That will take some time, probably not anytime soon!
Replies in bold above.

Spike

PS- Mods, please delete my post if found in-appropriate.
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Old 6th January 2011, 19:48   #144
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Default Re: Mahindra Thar : Test Drive & Review

Is the ECU placed in a waterproof compartment. If I were to cross a river in a That CRDe, what are the chances of water killing all the electronics? If I would not be comfortable ICE-ing the vehicle for fear of damage by water, the ECU should be far costlier to replace. I am leaning more towards the MDi.

Can the country cousins also get "AC Readiness" and Hard top? ..... atleast as a paid for option...
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Old 6th January 2011, 19:51   #145
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Default Re: Mahindra Thar : Test Drive & Review

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Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Dear All – I have read all your comments in detail and I would like to share some thoughts with you. Before you start reading, I would also like to mention to you that I am not trying to justify anything. If you read my comments carefully, you will understand everything.
=============
Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
Sirji

We do not have any doubts in our hearts about you or your teams intentions. You guys have done a great job and many of us know how corporates work and at the end of the day its profit that counts. So none of the comments below are personal to you or your amazing team of enthusiast.

What we are questioning is, how can a manufacturer who sells vehicle like Scorpio and Xylo, under estimate similar market and try to sell such (sorry to say this) but "Pathetically finished product".

Sir to be very honest i have had long discussion/debates/arguments with my family to convince them the need for a Thar in my life. Ask Rudra he has heard my wife tell me "just go buy that Thar if you really want it!" I was that close! When i walked into that hotel in BLR on the launch day my eyes were gleaming. But then i opened the door and all my enthusiasm was thrown under the wheels. I had better feeling when i sat inside the Nano 2 days before!

Reality is, for such a build, even if it has a multi-cam twin turbo ecu controlled diesel engine, i cannot shelve out 7.3 lakhs. At the end of the day i have to live with it for years. Its ok for first few days, but within weeks i will start regretting, the moment i glance down to check fuel level. Its a hard reality looking back at me and a very ugly sight at that.

If it was priced like the Di, maybe i wouldn't have cared! Mind you this is more expensive than my Swift DDIs!!! Am from a upper middle class family and when i spent money, i do think twice or thrice. If it had atleast an AC i would have given it one more round of thought. But this bare bone 4x4?? at 7.3 lakhs.

I know nothing is going to change now, but still this is my exact feeling.

If as a manufacturer M&M is serious about the numbers of Crdi, i would suggest the marketing and pricing team to rethink both on pricing and the pitch. Or as i mentioned somewhere else, sales number will trickle down to single digits in a matter of months and this will become another classic.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tejas@perioimpl View Post
The following i attribute to the poor FE:
- Test vehicle. In my personal experience, the test cars always run rich so that the customer experiences less vibrations and better performance.
- why i suspect the above? The crawl in 2wd was surprising! No matter what i did to stall the vehicle, it just refused to stall on letting go of the clutch. She would crawl.
- we did really push her on and off the road and many times she idled when we examined obstacles. So let not this be a test of true efficiency.
1- If that is the case then the performance of the real vehicle should be questioned in another real TD report. But lets give the benefit of doubt, i dont think any manufacturer would do such a trick of providing a richer or tuned vehicle to press. Atleast i hope so.

2- This is incorrect, its the ECU kicking in, it will try to avoid stall as much as possible by taking over. Egs: I can accelerate from 0-~50 kmph in my swift without touching accelerator, by just moving up the gears. ECU will help me with the crawl and then the acceleration, but at a very gradual pace.

3- This yes, but in an ECU car so much of drop? I really am not sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kandisa View Post
Point # 2: This sounds bit surprising to me. With an excellent mechanical package for on-road driving and repeated mentioning of its cruising ability many times in the forum, why the steering has to deliver a nervous feel over 100 kph? = But why with THAR???
Nothing but the servo assist, its not a variable servo. So higher the speed lighter the steering and super responsive. Only the driver has to relearn and keep this in mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
Jaggu, that is not a body lift!
Why we call it lift, is this is the exact same method we use here to increase the body clearance while building offroad vehicles. I have seen the same in an MM when i went to Kuttikanam. A friend is doing the exact same right now in BLR with his 550 build

Quote:
Originally Posted by khan_sultan View Post
Where? Can you point the checkered stickers in these pictures? We tried opening the 2 'black' rubber ones in the back, but they turned out to be "rivets". They are not the rubber drain-plug gromets
I remember seeing the sticker at the hotel launch it was silver shade. Right spike??

Here goes
Mahindra Thar : Test Drive & Review-thar-floor.jpg

But whats the point of having stickers coz we need to put them back once we drain/clean the vehicle. And notice the water condensation from the mat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by khan_sultan View Post
I stand by my word. You can hold me accountable to it. Give me HT/AC & decent interiors at this price & I will buy it today.
Add me to the list, who knows i might even offroad with it

Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
What is this Shiny SILVER Thing?
Looks like ECM?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shankar.balan View Post
Why should the consumer be bothered with internal company issues/ inefficiencies? It is upto the company to look after consumer needs as best as possible.
==============
There is an ad of IBM that says - "Dont sell what you have, sell what the customer wants." - M&M would do well to learn this concept.
Yes in this era company should worry. Even though we might be die hard fans of jeep we will think twice before putting in our money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpower View Post
Hi BD
If I understood you correctly, you are saying that the only reason AC was left out was to keep the price below a certain target.
I seriously don't think so! This is just a plain excuse. My take is either they are trying to make a good margin with the low volume sale they expect for Crde OR the whole development time frame was too short for finishing the design, install and testing. Maybe both.
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Old 6th January 2011, 19:56   #146
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Default Re: Mahindra Thar : Test Drive & Review

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Originally Posted by musicmanaman View Post
The more I read about Thar, the more my interest shifts from CRDE to MDI, is it me only or are there more like me in the forum?
+1 to that...

DB, Spike, et all.

Look what you guys did. All we wanted was a simple off-roader, maybe a Legend with a more contemporary engine. You guys wanted to build a metrosexual mobile, that goes 140 kmph. Unlike your traditional jeeper who have always seen jeeps as work horses, the metrosexual buyer has an eye for finer details like mismatched panels, rusted screws etc. He is not going to chip his manicured nails writing a check out for the Thar the way it is build.

I don't want to disappoint you guys, given the effort you put in, but some one has to say the truth. The Thar CRDe in it's current form is not going to go far from the Showrooms. You are left with two options:

1) Do the things that Lifestyle buyers want, i.e AC, Hard Top, better interiors etc and push the price to about 8.5 Lakhs On the road. The same lifestyle buyer will have all he wants but now will complain that the vehicle is too expensive. So you end up in a Catch 22 situation, kind of like between the big Rock and IFS.

2) Kill the Thar CRDe and launch a Deluxe MDI with better engine, 57 OKBJ Track, 53 FFRA Rear & Power Steering (optional). This way you will have a vehicle with ex-showroom of 5.5 Lakhs. The 100s of off-road jeepers will consider buying it and the Lifestyle market will move on to the Getaway, Xenon, etc....


Having been an autobuff all my life, I am almost certain that you will probably sell less than 100 Thar CRDe to individuals. The main reason is that for the price being asked, the lifestyle buyer will want a lot more from you.

Last edited by 4x4addict : 6th January 2011 at 20:14.
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Old 6th January 2011, 20:07   #147
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Default Re: Mahindra Thar : Test Drive & Review

Amazing review !

Sad to see the vehicle being ripped apart post review.IMO this would not have happened if the company had underplayed the launch and not come to such a forum. Leaving the techno stuff like the IFS and Body Lift aside for a moment. As a potential buyer have a few basic questions.

1. Not bothered about the fit and finish, afterall it is a JEEP(rather offroader),but have serious doubts if it would hold good after a few Offroad sessions. Looks as fragile as corner garage re-build JEEP.

2. What do I buy it for shelling out 7+ lakhs ?

a.) Lifestyle weekend vehicle - Can see no utility for a lifestyle vehicle, No AC, Hard top, no storage or cubby holes, can't leave the vehicle for a moment (Soft top), can't use the parking lots, no safety factor for backseat riders... does not qualify as a Lifestyle vehicle for me.

b.) Newbie eager to venture into Offroading-- reading the reviews I would be s%&^ scared of fragility of the IFS. I would feel the same as taking my Scorpio for an Offroad session.

Nice to know the vehicle has Authorised ***.

Is there a Warranty for any kind ?
Is there a 24X7 breakdown service ?
Do Offroading damages qualify for Insurance claim ?

After paying 7 lakhs for a vehicle Iam seriously considering the above points. Iam also confused with the positioning of the vehicle by MM.

Can the guru's enlighten me what would I be losing if I get a run down 540 and build it from scratch with the CRDe engine ? IMO I would be saving atleast 3 Lakhs.

Pls correct me..
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Old 6th January 2011, 20:08   #148
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Default Re: Mahindra Thar : Test Drive & Review

A wishlist for what one would want gets posted on Dec 2008, well after the vehicle in question is already developed, albeit in LHD guise for export.

Dec 2010, the said vehicle is launched, after extensive "R&D". What was incorporated from the wishlist? ~ Rs 7 Lakh on road price.
What "R&D" was done? Punching and covering some holes in the firewall to switch from LHD to RHD? How to get away with using the cheapest possible plastic parts? Realizing from the huge number of hits on the thread that there exists demand for such a vehicle, so cut costs as much as possible, because people will still buy the damn thing?

Jan 2011, promise to improve said vehicle (at least to load carrier Maxximo levels of fit and finish, I hope)

2013 - Expected date of launch after "R&D" with improved fit and finish?

Is India only country with CMVR (or similar) rules? Is manufacturer's concern only to save a test iron ball with a rubber strip? What about all the other potentially dangerous metal protrusions in the cab (like the one under the sorry excuse of a glovebox?http://www.team-bhp.com/carpics/mahi...ah-thar-12.jpg) Guess our knees are not as important as a test ball.

Excellent use of public forum to garner market interest.

Words and feelings like "getting PLAYED" or "HUSTLED" comes to mind.
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Old 6th January 2011, 20:10   #149
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Default Re: Mahindra Thar : Test Drive & Review

@4x4addict
Can't a traditional jeeper also want non rusted parts, properly finished interiors and travel in comfort in an AC? Or just to prove that he's a man he has to travel in a rust bucket in the heat with a jagged dash poking him all the time?

Last edited by Tejas@perioimpl : 6th January 2011 at 20:11.
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Old 6th January 2011, 20:24   #150
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Default Re: Mahindra Thar : Test Drive & Review

Few more pictures

The beading of the RHS door. A minor thing but again, speaks volumes about the quality processes. Even after closing you will notice that the door beading doesn't sit properly on either side
Mahindra Thar : Test Drive & Review-ina6.jpg

More of the hacksaw cut plastics
Mahindra Thar : Test Drive & Review-ot_plastic_quality.jpg

The open roller mechanism of the seat belt gets jammed with all the muck/dust from OTR's. It is a PAIN to get it working and irritates the hell out of you. We had few instances where the seatbelt just refused to come out and one had to get out of the vehicle and do circus to get it working
Mahindra Thar : Test Drive & Review-ot_seatbelt.jpg

Look carefully, and you will notice rusting in some areas (visible in earlier pictures also)
Mahindra Thar : Test Drive & Review-ot_rust1.jpg

The bonnet latch will scratch the paint of your hood after some time.
Mahindra Thar : Test Drive & Review-ot_rust2.jpg

Last edited by khan_sultan : 6th January 2011 at 20:55.
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