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Old 22nd April 2015, 14:32   #3346
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Default Re: Mahindra Thar : Test Drive & Review

Thank you Mr BD.

The part about the turbo/booster proximity was told to me by the MM wksp stsff.

I run mine as a single cab so the back is open.
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Old 10th May 2015, 11:13   #3347
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Default Re: Mahindra Thar : Test Drive & Review

Just so you know.. there are thars that look like this out there..

http://indianautosblog.com/2014/11/m...rau-top-156163
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Old 13th May 2015, 17:10   #3348
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I would greatly appreciate some help.

The soft top on my Thar tore last week and I'm looking for a replacement in Mumbai. I've spoken to NBS Mahindra in Andheri, their workshop in Raey Road but they aren't giving me an answer if I can get one from them, until I drop my car there (not sure for what).

I've also spoken to Atlas Auto Parts but they said they don't have one in stock and neither can they arrange for one.

Grudgingly (reason below), I dropped off my car at G3 Motors in Malad for a service and asked them to change it. The sales rep told me in all her time there, she's never seen anyone replace one so she'll need to speak to her manager and let me know.

2 days and 5 phone calls later, they still don't know if they can arrange for one. When I asked whether I'd get the new one or the old one, if at all, I was told it would be as per my chassis number. Not sure what to make of this.


Now the reason why I don't like G3 Motors (A cautionary tale, of sorts.)

I bought my Thar from them and my first 3 services happened there as well. When I picked up the car after my third service, it had been driven a 102KM. When I asked them why, I was told it was to check my wheel alignment. Unfortunately, I let it pass. A few days later my A/C stopped working so I took the car back and in a few hours, got a call saying the motor needed to be replaced and would cost Rs. 5000. It later turned out to be a faulty knob which I replaced for Rs. 50. So, they're not the most trustworthy, but for me, a known devil is better!

It would be great if someone could help. Thanks!
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Old 21st May 2015, 15:39   #3349
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Mod note: Back to back posts, use Multi Quote [Quote +] instead. Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KkVaidya View Post
This is an aftermarket installation. Stock Thar has the black Intercooler.
The fins are larger thus making the intake air cooler resulting in increased volumetric efficiency. But I still suspect that it will reduce turbo lag.
Thar gets the turbo boost after around 1800rpm. Anything less then that makes it sluggish.
I have never said that it will reduce turbo lag. I have always had emphases on the heat soak issue.

I have been working on turbo charged cars for a decade now. Starting form turbo swifts and honda citys to the Mitsubishi evos and supras.I have seen different power outputs by changing cooler sizes and intercooler pipe diameters.I have seen all these loses & gains on the dyno and not just be feel.

The Thars cooler is not being able to dissapate heat as the surface area is small. So instead of trying make power by adding tuning boxes etc, i strongly believe in making the machine more efficient. This, according to my experince can be achieved by adding more oxygen molecules to the same amount of air pressure.( to be read as, cooler charge).

Quote:
Originally Posted by KkVaidya View Post
Has anyone upgraded to a bigger size Intercooler? I head that this will reduce the turbo lag.
I am yet to ascertain how a bigger Intercooler helps in reducing the lag!
A bigger intercooler has more area for the moving air to contact and thus taking away with it more heat as compared to an intercooler with a smaller front surface area.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Dear Vaidyaji - of course I know that this one was not your Thar, yours is black, this one was silver! .

As I have mentioned many times before, please do not change any mechanical specifications / aggregates in your vehicle unless you are hell bent on commiting hara-kiri and spending good money to spoil your vehicle! If at all, you can take the correct but very difficult route of recreating a certain black vehicle which exists only in our memory now. .

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
Dear Behramji,
There are alot of companies selling front mount coolers or bigger cooler that OEM. These companies/tuners are from different parts of the USA,Japan, UK to name a few. So you would say that the big name such as AMS, HKS etc are selling parts for the aftermarket customer to commit hara-kiri? on their GTR, evos.

In fact one of the most common upgrade for the Octavia 1.8t was to remove the small OEM cooler inside the bumper and add a front mounted cooler. And hundreds for these were sold from 1994 till date. All these guy made more power.

Please please get some of ur facts right.

Karan Shah

Last edited by Jaggu : 21st May 2015 at 16:49. Reason: Back to back posts, use Multi Quote [Quote +] instead. Thanks.
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Old 21st May 2015, 16:15   #3350
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Default Re: Mahindra Thar : Test Drive & Review

Saying that changing an Intercooler to a large one has no effects at all is not true. If you are upgrading to a slightly larger cooler which will give more surface area to cool, this will help in drivability. If you have a smaller cooler, your cooler will be heat soaked within a few kms of driving in the heat. It will take that much longer for it to cool down. A larger surface area will dissipate heat more evenly and faster and thereby giving you a more positive and linear flow of power.
I say this out of experience as I had a stock cooler on my skoda and upgraded to a relatively larger cooler with the stock map. I immediately found a change in the behaviour of the car and it was pulling better and would feel lighter to use. There is no drastic change in the turbo lag (for me it was 200 rpm or so) and it is not really noticeable. What is noticeable is the driving response when you accelerate from a rolling car and when you are at high revs.

Therefore an upgraded cooler is definitely worth an upgrade!
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Old 21st May 2015, 16:57   #3351
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Originally Posted by KS Motorsport View Post
Dear Behramji, there are a lot of companies selling front mount coolers or bigger cooler that OEM. All these guy made more power. Please please get some of your facts right. Karan Shah
Dear Karan - hello to you, it is indeed nice to interact with you on the forum.

With all due regard to your comments, I trust that you will appreciate what we do in R&D. We go through these sub-routines daily, its our job. I have evaluated numerous such "power-boosters", including one from a gentleman from Hyderabad who came with some plants and told us to put them in the fuel tank to get 25% improvement in power + 10% improvement in fuel economy! . I consider that you will now appreciate!

I will humbly reiterate that only correctly engineered aggregates will work in production vehicles, I will also say for the second time that everything else is a waste of time, and I will always stay with my comments. However, finally it an individual's decision what he does with his car.

And, by the way, what about the market scenario? you know something Karan? read on! (with due regard for shopkeepers):
1. You go to buy a spark plug for your two wheeler. The only thing the shopkeeper asks is "lamba thread ke chhota thread", isn't it? He has no ghost of an idea what heat range means, and heat range is just one out of 25 such parameters!
2. You go to buy a tire for your car (which is the most important part of the car). I have seen target customers lured by the silver and golden colored foils on tires rather than paying attention to the target size of a particular tire for a particular width of wheel rim at a particular offset as per the ITTAC manual. Normal customers will definitely not know that for the same manufacturer's name, the same trade name and the same nominal size, multiple mode tires actually exist out there. And why should the vehicle not "pull"? Then the poor fellow goes for "something known as wheel alignment". Haven't we seen wheel rims with 8 holes out of which only 4 are used for mounting? We laughed when we saw the graphs of load v/s deflection under simulated cornering in the laboratory!

Oh, come on now. ENJOY! .

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
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Old 21st May 2015, 17:34   #3352
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
1. You go to buy a spark plug for your two wheeler. The only thing the shopkeeper asks is "lamba thread ke chhota thread", isn't it? He has no ghost of an idea what heat range means, and heat range is just one out of 25 such parameters!
Wrong comparison Behramji, a professional shop like AMS, HKS Vs your local parts fella

As far as the OE specs, well no comments. I had a chance to look at the ECU map that is running in Thar and all i can say is, its written by some 12th Std student where as a min of graduation was needed for a proper map. FYI hardware is same as some premium cars, but the software was just so el pathetic.

In short, got a graduate trainee to re-write and i am glad to say the vehicle is working well within the prescribed parameters and an actual hoot to drive without blowing anything up.

ps: What were the design thought while designing that abrupt fuel cut off?? Was it for saving the engine components for 4 lakhs kms or saving the driver from those bad brakes?
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Old 22nd May 2015, 11:03   #3353
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Quote:

The production Thar intercooler is exactly same as taken from a mid-size passenger car (don't ask me which one ), there is absolutely no change at all! It meets the temperature delta and the pressure delta so there is no need to upgrade to anything else.
with referance to context, will it be correct for me to say that u guys thought it right to take a cooler from a another production car and stick it onto ur off roading vehicle? Although the pressure delta & temperature delta meet ur standards, what about the weight of the sedan vs ur 4x4? wouldnt it take more effort to cool the air coming out of the turbo in a 4x4 vs a sedan.

I am not saying that the Thar is a "bad" 4x4. All i am saying that there is place for improvement on the cooling front.

Sirji, i have read ur profile and i do understand ur association with M&M.I am only saying that there is always room from improvement if done properly

Karan

Last edited by Jaggu : 22nd May 2015 at 12:08. Reason: Fixing quotes
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Old 22nd May 2015, 11:06   #3354
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
1. I had a chance to look at the ECU map that is running in Thar and all I can say is, its written by some 12th Std student where as a minimum of graduation was needed for a proper map. FYI hardware is same as some premium cars, but the software was just so el pathetic. 2. What were the design thought while designing that abrupt fuel cut off?? Was it for saving the engine components for 4 lakhs kms or saving the driver from those bad brakes?
Dear Jaggu - hello after a very long time. As usual, I have numbered your comments. Answers are as follows, this may be a repeat because I remember to have said all this before also:

1. A lot of "money is paid to", and a lot of "business class and first class trips are undertaken" to a city which is world famous for its wonderful palaces, serene atmosphere and lovely music, to realize what you mention. Any silly guy like me (and now you) who voices any dissent will hear a standard dialogue "if it does not meet BS4, don't tell us". You are also in the corporate world Jaggu, oh come on now!

2. In this case, I was given a nice pink ribbon covered democratic alternative (as you very well know). That alternative was "NO VEHICLE"! There was no way I was going to let them get away with it, Jaggubhai! I made it my mission to make a certain black vehicle, to give a fitting answer to these "democratic alternatives"! Everybody knows its performance! .

I have utmost regard for performance car tuners and I do not doubt their capabilities, I have no reason to. I am also one of them, but it is my hobby and I have kept it completely separate from my mainstream work. But as long as you keep it as a hobby, you will enjoy. Of course, reliability with regard to production vehicle suffers, I have accepted that tradeoff knowingly. I was just mentioning all this for the benefit of normal target customers, they should also know, isn't it?

By the way, as this whole thing started out of the Thar CRDe intercooler, let me mention that Thar CRDe intercooler is exactly same as that of a mainstream passenger car sold in India. It meets the mass flow requirements of the NEF CRDe engine with a decent margin, enough to give design approval. A Thar CRDe customer vehicle had met with a minor accident, requiring intercooler replacement. His vehicle waited for 2 months in a fancy workshop to get a replacement which he was willing to pay for also, forgetting the insurance. After a lot of paper pushing which resulted in nothing, he had called me last week. I told him to buy it from Opera House. He bought it and he is merrily using his vehicle now! He also had a good laugh!

Itna baat karta hai, itna bhi dikhta nahin kya? Enjoy!

.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

Last edited by DHABHAR.BEHRAM : 22nd May 2015 at 11:08.
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Old 22nd May 2015, 12:15   #3355
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Any silly guy like me (and now you) who voices any dissent will hear a standard dialogue "if it does not meet BS4, don't tell us". You are also in the corporate world Jaggu, oh come on now!

2. In this case, I was given a nice pink ribbon covered democratic alternative (as you very well know). That alternative was "NO VEHICLE"! There was no way I was going to let them get away with it, Jaggubhai! I made it my mission to make a certain black vehicle, to give a fitting answer to these "democratic alternatives"! Everybody knows its performance! .
For people who doesn't know Behramji, this means there is lot of scope to do many things. But under that situation he did his bests. And THANK YOU for that

Quote:
I have utmost regard for performance car tuners and I do not doubt their capabilities, I have no reason to.
=====I was just mentioning all this for the benefit of normal target customers, they should also know, isn't it?
Means > The tune is very conservative and kept that way, considering the population that would be using the vehicle.

Quote:
By the way, as this whole thing started out of the Thar CRDe intercooler,
=====
He bought it and he is merrily using his vehicle now! He also had a good laugh!
Means > Sometimes you don't need very expensive alternatives to get vehicle performing as it should, local parts shop will also work. As long as you know what to look and are aware of the do's and don'ts.

Thanks Behramji, just started off with slow changes. Hopefully i will have the vehicle set up the way i want soon. Not missing a Swifts DDiS engine is a step in the right direction i guess.
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Old 22nd May 2015, 12:51   #3356
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Hopefully I will have the vehicle set up the way I want soon. Not missing a Swifts DDiS engine is a step in the right direction I guess.
Dear Jaggu - thanks, I appreciate your comments! For your vehicle, just replicate "a certain black vehicle" and you will be blown away by the way it will work. It will fly! It's not gonna come cheap, though! .

I also know (and I had obliquely mentioned also) that the black vehicle specification sheet can make it to production if the intent is there and if the process is followed not only in letter but also in spirit, with content and relevancy. One customer is slowly building it somewhere in North India, I know. Reliability will be 100% because what is to be done is essentially a meccano model, every single thing is already engineered and is freely available.

Alas, what else to tell this great "sarvagunna sampanna corporate world"! Sad! .

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

PS - the intercooler is not of Swift!

Last edited by DHABHAR.BEHRAM : 22nd May 2015 at 12:52.
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Old 15th June 2015, 11:32   #3357
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The AC in my 8 month old vehicle has stopped giving that chill effect since last week. Checked details yesterday and believe that there should be a gas leak somewhere.
The air coming out of the vents is not 'chilled' as it used to be. The temperature controller knob is a simple cut-on or cut-off type thermostat unlike other modern vehicles that mix with warm air if you take it out of the blue zone. So once the compressor is on, noticeable with an audible click of the cut-out and change in idle speed followed by the fan getting on. The AC does get on but the air coming out of the vents is not chilled enough. Although it is not as warm as when it throws out if the AC is switched off.

Can anyone guide me on how this leakage happened? The vehicle is not modified or met with any accident to knock off the gas. I will be visiting the ASC soon but need to know why this happened?

Best regards,
KK Vaidya
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Old 17th June 2015, 11:32   #3358
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Went to the ASC yesterday to get the AC checked and I was right. The refrigerant had leaked from the system. Upon checking it was found to be leaking from the top of the Receiver/drier can. The technician changed the O ring twice but no help.
This could be a manufacturing defect that popped up after 7 month of usage
The service adviser told me that they don't have the RD and the subsequent piping in stock as Thar rarely comes in for service due to frugal population. In other Mahindra models, the RD design is different and is located somewhere between the condenser and compressor.
So I have to wait a week before the replacement part comes and the cabin gets cool air.

BTW, i was irritated when the SA told me to sit inside rather then keeping aside my vehicle citing the reason that customer are not allowed inside the workshop!!!
What has made me thinking is how come the gas leaked? Could it be due to high vibrations? or is it due to poor metallurgy of the receiver?
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Old 18th June 2015, 14:41   #3359
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Default Re: Mahindra Thar : Test Drive & Review

Need guidance. My HR Manager did a little mud plugging on her way to work and got stuck. She engaged 4wd and got out. After getting unstuck, she could not remember where the position of 4wd stick was or how to put it back to Neutral. Obviously, her ride was not moving the way it should. Low pickup which probably suggests 4L. When I checked, it was left at 4H. The markings have faded on the stick. I did a little youtubing, some reading and found that leaving in in 2H should be fine for regular use. When I went and checked her thar, there is a Neutral position indicated on the faded label. Engaging it was tricky. It is somewhere between 4L and the dead stop (when you yank the lever left from 4H) but I can't feel a notch in between that suggests its neutral. Slotted in 2H, took it for a spin to which she confirmed that her Thar was moving fine now. Can it be left this way?

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Old 18th June 2015, 16:18   #3360
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Slotted in 2H, took it for a spin to which she confirmed that her Thar was moving fine now. Can it be left this way?
You will here a small audible click whenever you engage from 2H to 4H. Did you check that? While dis-engaging from 4H to 2H, you will have to reverse the vehicle for about 4-5 meters till you here that clicking sound.
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