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Old 11th March 2011, 16:56   #1216
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Default Re: Mahindra Thar : Test Drive & Review

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Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Hi Jaggu,

Which Petrol Engine and How Deep was the vehicle submerged?

Regards,

Arka
If I can take the liberty to answer this. the vehicle in question was CRV.

Here is the link to Jaggu's thread

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/long-t...ounting-3.html
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Old 11th March 2011, 17:03   #1217
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Default Re: Mahindra Thar : Test Drive & Review

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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
As Arka mentioned, the intercooler plumbing could be the culprit here. Water may have never entered the Engine, but the turbo from where it got in oil.
Unless the oil seals of the turbo is blown, how will the water get in touch with oil? Also if water enters turbo, then wont it hit air filter first and then the engine? So air filter also has to be wet right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Hi Jaggu,

Which Petrol Engine and How Deep was the vehicle submerged?

Regards,

Arka
Honda Crv, water level was just below the door.

Vehicle was moving through the water and then there was an incline. Basically its under a overbridge. Meanwhile a lorry passing on the right side, created a big wave pool. Driver panicked and let go the throttle, and engine stopped. After this vehicle was pushed to the side and was not cranking. Helpful samritans gets involved and push start the vehicle, was driven home. No signs of water entry from engine or the air filter. Except a nasty kat kat sound at idle. After a long fight with Honda we decided to open up the engine and saw the damage.

Read from here for details and pictures of the damage
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Old 11th March 2011, 17:46   #1218
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Default Re: Mahindra Thar : Test Drive & Review

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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
Unless the oil seals of the turbo is blown, how will the water get in touch with oil? Also if water enters turbo, then wont it hit air filter first and then the engine? So air filter also has to be wet right?



Honda Crv, water level was just below the door.

Vehicle was moving through the water and then there was an incline. Basically its under a overbridge. Meanwhile a lorry passing on the right side, created a big wave pool. Driver panicked and let go the throttle, and engine stopped. After this vehicle was pushed to the side and was not cranking. Helpful samritans gets involved and push start the vehicle, was driven home. No signs of water entry from engine or the air filter. Except a nasty kat kat sound at idle. After a long fight with Honda we decided to open up the engine and saw the damage.

Read from here for details and pictures of the damage
Hi Jaggu,

The Normal Air Inlet route is

Air-Fliter-> Turbocharger->Intercooler->Inlet Manifold
-> Between each unit is a rubber hose with 2 Clips (minimum)

If water in sufficient quantity gets sucked in, then it can cause the cylinder head to rapidly cool down, and crack the gasket and/or warp the Head.

Hence
i) water leaks into the oil. (Coolant is usually green in colour so the Engine oil-coolant mix will be greenish.

ii) Hot Compression Gasses (exhaust) Leaks into the Water Jacket, evapourating the water.

iii) Both of the above.

wrt to Honda CRV Scenario.

What was the height of the wave created by the Truck?

What is the height of the Air-Filter mouth from the ground?

How did you rule out a leaky plumbing?

Regards,

Arka
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Old 11th March 2011, 19:40   #1219
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Default Re: Mahindra Thar : Test Drive & Review

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Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Please do consider a leak in the Turbo or Inter Cooler Plumbing, considering the filter is dry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by headers View Post
^^ is a very important point considering the intercooler is behind the front bumper and the plumbing goes from one side of the engine to the other. A circlip if loose will allow water!!

@Spike - Am I correct?

I also think that a loose plumbing will first lead to a turbocharger failure.

Need to discuss further on this !
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Old 11th March 2011, 20:13   #1220
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Default Re: Mahindra Thar : Test Drive & Review

Jaggu CRV's have their air intake low upfront and every monsoon we have atleast one vehicle coming in with a damaged engine on account of hydrolock. Sadly this usually happens even in waterlogged roads where the driver assumes a softroader should go through with ease. Not so though with CRV's
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Old 11th March 2011, 20:15   #1221
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Talking Re: Mahindra Thar : Test Drive & Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by headers View Post

Need to discuss further on this !
Why ?

It must be on the 'Table ' ( workshop ) by now , the FIR is with us .

Let the 'Doctors ' confirm the CoD, & lets have the PM report

till then lets wait .

Sudarshan
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Old 12th March 2011, 00:33   #1222
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Default Re: Mahindra Thar : Test Drive & Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by speedy View Post
...checked the oil and it was white.
She overheated and died. This time again she was towed and brought to the Garage, where we were informed she blew her Ghasket.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
...how will the water get in touch with oil?
Subject to confirmation from the workshop, I think Arka just arrived at the perfect diagnosis/hypothesis for CoD.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
...cause the cylinder head to rapidly cool down, and crack the gasket and/or warp the Head.
The Thar has a CI block and head, isn't it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sudarshan View Post
Let the 'Doctors ' confirm the CoD, & lets have the PM report

Last edited by SS-Traveller : 12th March 2011 at 00:38.
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Old 12th March 2011, 20:13   #1223
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Default Re: Mahindra Thar : Test Drive & Review

@DKG: Our Crv (model/type 2) has a cold air/snorkel set up (stock, swift D also has this) which exits at the front, top bonnet member area. I personally removed the filter and filter was bone dry, soon after this incident. Its a paper filter am sure you know that, so if even a few ml's passed through, it will show signs. This is the reason why i disputed Honda's claim at first.

EDIT: on the other hand i have taken my swift inside a wave, (already posted here) where water flowed "over" first 1/4 part of the hood. It did not even miss a beat and drove another 40 kms without even stopping to check.

@arka, wave was from the rear to the side, not even more than wheel height, air intake sits higher than that. Much higher. If you read my post i also did not believe it first, but then proof was out there and info available on the internet also.

Dropping revs suddenly while exhaust dipped in water, is NOT a good idea. That is all i have to say. Ask Robi, he also paid similar bill for a Skoda diesel engine.

EDIT: Arka i did not realize you were referring to leak at the intercooler pipes. But that also is a definite no coz it would create weird hizz, even for a minor leak. Am sure these guys would have realized it before then.

EDIT2: Can someone throw light on how much time it takes for oil to turn frothy? Is couple of cranks with contaminated oil enough or does it take more than that?

Last edited by Jaggu : 12th March 2011 at 20:25.
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Old 13th March 2011, 04:19   #1224
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Default Re: Mahindra Thar : Test Drive & Review

Great review! Any idea if the Thar will be available outside India, Europe and South Africa?
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Old 13th March 2011, 11:13   #1225
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Default Re: Mahindra Thar : Test Drive & Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
@DKG: Our Crv (model/type 2) has a cold air/snorkel set up (stock, swift D also has this) which exits at the front, top bonnet member area. I personally removed the filter and filter was bone dry, soon after this incident. Its a paper filter am sure you know that, so if even a few ml's passed through, it will show signs. This is the reason why i disputed Honda's claim at first.

EDIT: on the other hand i have taken my swift inside a wave, (already posted here) where water flowed "over" first 1/4 part of the hood. It did not even miss a beat and drove another 40 kms without even stopping to check.

@arka, wave was from the rear to the side, not even more than wheel height, air intake sits higher than that. Much higher. If you read my post i also did not believe it first, but then proof was out there and info available on the internet also.

Dropping revs suddenly while exhaust dipped in water, is NOT a good idea. That is all i have to say. Ask Robi, he also paid similar bill for a Skoda diesel engine.

EDIT: Arka i did not realize you were referring to leak at the intercooler pipes. But that also is a definite no coz it would create weird hizz, even for a minor leak. Am sure these guys would have realized it before then.

EDIT2: Can someone throw light on how much time it takes for oil to turn frothy? Is couple of cranks with contaminated oil enough or does it take more than that?
Hi Jaggu,

What is the Density of Air/Exhaust Gasses vs Density of Water?

If the Exhaust sucks in water then under normal running conditions the exhaust is also sucking in air.

That mean the Valve Timing is off.

The K&N Type Filters are normally very porous compared to the OEM Filters, and if it is a Wet Type (K&N Filter Oil) Filter, then you cannot make out if water has been ingested.

The probability of the K&N sucking in water in a freak splash are very high.

The Leak in the Air Intake Plumbing can be caused by a sudden splash, when the radiator/intercooler hit water with force the water cannot pass through the cooling fins and can flex/distort the radiator and cause a minor leak in the plumbing.

This damage happened to Srinath's JEEP on Aavalakonda Day#2 just after the water crossing obstacle.

The Radiator flexed, hit the fan and developed a leak.

A Table Spoon of Water in enough to cause damage to the engine.

This amount can get sucked in immediately and cause a catastrophic failure, or over some time and the engine will run normally but the effectiveness of the engine oil will deteriorate rapidly.

If you get stuck in water and switch off the engine, water will get sucked in to; up to the silencer/Muffler.

Then If you then crank the engine the water in the Silencer will get pushed out or may even push out the entire muffler assy due to the pressure of the exhaust gasses. I have experienced the first and seen the second in a JEEP stranded in water.

The Oil turning frothy will happen if the engine is running with water for some time (Seconds to minutes depending on the amount of water sucked in)

Regards,

Arka

Capillary action - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bernoulli's principle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pressure head - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Venturi effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 13th March 2011, 13:35   #1226
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Default Re: Mahindra Thar : Test Drive & Review

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Originally Posted by Jeeper1941 View Post
Great review! Any idea if the Thar will be available outside India, Europe and South Africa?
Dear Mr.Jeeper - we are selling Thar in Europe and South Africa. It meets all European / South African norms in its category. Please PM me if you want further information.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
General Manager (Vehicle Development) & Head - 4WD Center of Excellence,
Research & Development Center, Automotive Sector,
Mahindra & Mahindra Ltd, Plot No 89, MIDC, Satpur, Nasik 422007, India.
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Old 13th March 2011, 15:15   #1227
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Default Re: Mahindra Thar : Test Drive & Review

What Arka is saying is correct. Water cannot enter into a cylinder via the exhaust route. Under normal engine operating conditions the exhaust is always excavating gases and never in the cycle ingesting air. As correctly pointed out only when the exhaust valves are too tight and not closed completely do you have suction of air through the exhaust on the inlet stroke.

The Thar has to have taken water in through the intake system. Either through the main intake or as Arka mentioned through a leak elsewhere in the intake setup.
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Old 14th March 2011, 01:07   #1228
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Default Re: Mahindra Thar : Test Drive & Review

Arka the Crv in question had stock paper air filter in STOCK filter box, which has a stock snorkel that exit at bonnet end, and not k&n. And i repeat anybody who has seen a dusty air filter will know how it looks like, even if a few ml of water pass through, it will leave a scar.

What do you gentlemen have to say about a few ml's of water getting in through exhaust side and forming steam, which does not compress or combust like fuel. Resulting in bent con rod? Please note its just one cylinder that had a problem.

Next point, am again repeating, what happens when suddenly high revs are cut off, does it cause a back pressure towards engine at the exhaust? What about something like a shunt?

Let me tell you again and again, if you keep the engine running at constant rpm, even at idle, it will survive with exhaust dipped in water. Debate is NOT that! what happens, when engine at high revs are suddenly let off the gas, when exhaust system is inside water?

http://www.smartdriving.co.uk/Drivin...ies/Floods.htm

Quote:
In some cases a stalled engine can result in water being sucked back through the exhaust into the cylinders - this can cause extensive and expensive damage. Do not change gear because this can also cause water to be sucked back through the exhaust (due to the change in engine speed and manifold depression).
What does the above mean?

Last edited by Jaggu : 14th March 2011 at 01:26.
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Old 14th March 2011, 02:38   #1229
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Default My interaction with THAR

Finally i had a CLOSE LOOK at the THAR. i was forced to have a look i was fortunate that i got a chance to interact with THAR. it was a Surprise and Shocking at the same time. This piece of machine showed me how Mahindra really dealt and dealing with it. I was shocked to see this THAR getting towed by a CJ3B to the OTR spot. i mean it broke down even before reaching the OTR spot. I took a test drive to diagnose the problem. this was the first time i drove THAR. just before few minutes i had driven invader for more than 250kms in order to reach the OTR spot. after experiencing the invader, the moment i sat in THAR, i was not comfortable with the seating and the steering was sticking to the dashboard with a finger gap in between steering and the dashboard. and yes i felt the offset. i lost all the WOW factor i had from outside as soon as i got inside. the steering is so light and absolutely has no feedback that taught me what is meant by nervous steering. not good for roads with lot of curves. with the current quality and w.r.t what it offers, all i can say it is NOT worth for your hard earned money.
ok now coming back to the topic, a small background about this THAR. when this vehicle was bought, the owner was not feeling the power the THAR is supposed to deliver. after few days he had complained this to the Mahindra dealer. they had a look and don't know what really they diagnosed it and told the owner that it has some actuator problem and over a period of time it would become alright(i really don't know how). after few hundreds kms, it was still the same. then the owner had taken this issue directly with Mahindra and he had very poor response to his problem. after repeated request to mahindra, they had sent an engineer to diagnose the problem. this engineer couldn't find out the reason or he did not know how to diagnose the problem and the response the owner gets from the engineer is "Sir, what more can you expect for just 6lkh rs?" as if the owner was expecting it to deliver 300bhp or more.
So finally he had no choice and gave up. was using the vehicle with what ever it could deliver him. it is Nth vehicle for him. so he is not really bothered but disappointed with this product the way it ended up at just 2k on ODO. it had attended its first OTR which involved crossing some slush patches as well. after the first OTR it was washed and not used till the next OTR. when it was on the way to attend its second OTR it started showing the MIL ON. when the MIL is lit ON, the engine stalls. it was happening when he demanded more power. it was unable to overtake even the diesel autorikshaw.

This is what happened when i drove the THAR.



I have diagnosed the problem, but i will let mahindra to find out and fix the problem. am curious to see how many days or weeks will they take to resolve it.
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Old 14th March 2011, 07:14   #1230
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Exclamation Re: My interaction with THAR

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Originally Posted by star_aqua View Post
"Sir, what more can you expect for just 6lkh rs?"
Till now I thanked MM for this effort ( taking a bold step to introduce Thar )

But now I feel very angry , this is the SAME attitude 'WE ' faced 22 years back . The mentality has changed ?

Putting aside all my anger , I would reply this 'engineer ' as follows ( in a very calm tone & polite language )

1) Please find the fault or leave the Job

2) If I put 6 Lakh in front of you , are you sure you can count that ? ( in what ever form )

3) You are right its not your fault , its the MM who have employed you

4) from where did you learn engineering ?

5) please give me my money back & take the vehicle back


But I don't think all the 'Customers ' will be that polite , people are well connected & well informed ,

The day is not far ( if its not a one off incident ) that such arrogant remark will get its answer then & there

God save that 'engineer' , some day he is going to get a nice footwear in front of his face .

Dear BHPians , please understand my feelings , this post may get deleted but the feeling will not . I am sure many will feel like me .

After all its the Question of our hard earned money & there is no excuse for such sick remarks .

Sudarshan
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