Go Back   Team-BHP > Team-BHP > Team-BHP Advice > On owning a car


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 18th August 2011, 05:28   #571
Senior - BHPian
 
mayankjha1806's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 2,116
Thanked: 780 Times
Default Re: i10 Kappa2 Horrible FE figures after first service

I guess getting it checked again by Tankfull to Tankfull method should be the first thing to do, and then getting it checked with Hyundai Service would be a way to go.

My neighbor's i10 gives him 10+ figures with 100% AC on always and that too in Bangalore ORR traffic. I am not sure if Kolkata traffic is similar but ORR traffic is bumper-bumper all the way. He usually does Sarjapur to Marathalli everyday.
mayankjha1806 is offline   Reply With Quote

Old 18th August 2011, 08:00   #572
Senior - BHPian
 
vigsom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: MAA
Posts: 1,398
Thanked: 177 Times
Default Re: i10 Kappa2 Horrible FE figures after first service

I am sure there is some error in calculation ; such FE figures can't be true unless the traffic moves at such a pace that your AT shifts only to gear no.2 at best.

Maybe you could take the car on a highway, run at 80kmph and then judge ; a lot of fuel will be spent but I think is would be worth it.
vigsom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th August 2011, 09:32   #573
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Bhubaneswar
Posts: 1,762
Thanked: 522 Times
Default Re: i10 Kappa2 Horrible FE figures after first service

I would have expected 100%AC figures even in bumper to bumper traffic to be no worse than 10-11kmpl. Our 1.4 Punto, which is a known low mileage car, gives us 10+ with AC on in pretty heavy traffic. Either your calculation is off, or something is wrong.

I dont buy the fact that the volume of fuel from the pump is wrong. They would cheat you upto about 10%, ie give you 900ml against 1L shown. So even with that error you would still be getting a figure lower than your previous AT. So that's of no point at all.

Do a couple more full tank to full tank check, using different fuel pumps to eliminate the fuel pump error, and then see what the result is. If it stays below 10, something may be wrong.
julupani is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th August 2011, 11:44   #574
BHPian
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Kolkata
Posts: 124
Thanked: 42 Times
Default Re: i10 Kappa2 Horrible FE figures after first service

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy4.Cars View Post
Few points from my end with regards to your issue.

2) I'm not sure of what is your fuel tank size, but trust me i was shocked when one of the service advisors did an experiment with me. The present day cars have high air pressure in the fuel tanks, when the fuel station is trying to do a full tank, the nossle auto stops when your tank is full. But here comes the catch, your tank is actually not full yet!!! Shut the tank lid, take the car for a 400-500 meter spin, return to the fuel station and to your suprise another 1 or 2 litres of fuel will easily go inside the fuel tank.(1-2 litres varies from one car to another, my friends swift tank capacity is 43 litres but the tank can actually hold 44.4 Litres, and he now gets a FE of 21KMPL with a DDIs engine!!)
Yes I am aware of this method. i10 has a 35L tank. Generally it takes upto 31L after the fuel light comes up. If you roll the car a little bit, it will take couple of litres more but I prefer to stop at the auto cutoff. I got this habit
from US I guess where there is generally a sign at the gas stations to not to top off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by misquitas View Post
As far as I know, Hyundai does virtually nothing on the I10 during the first service. When I gave my I10 1.2 Kappa 2 Magna for its first service, all I was asked is if I had any issues/problems with the car. Then the car was sent for a wash and I got it within 2-3 hours. The actual service of the car took place during the SECOND service.
So is my experience. The car was vacuumed, soaped, washed and underbody anti-rust coating was done in front of me. It went inside the shop for a while and came out in 10 minutes - not sure what was done during that. I think it would have been a casual routine check.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vigsom View Post
I am sure there is some error in calculation ; such FE figures can't be true unless the traffic moves at such a pace that your AT shifts only to gear no.2 at best.
It took 31.27 L fuel with tripmeter showing 233.6 KM. It is not an AT, it's a stick-shift.

I will take all your suggestions, run a few more iterations and post back.
sbiswas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th August 2011, 12:00   #575
Distinguished - BHPian
 
dhanushs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Bathery/BLR
Posts: 2,807
Thanked: 2,022 Times
Default Re: i10 Kappa2 Horrible FE figures after first service

Even I know a friends i10, just 6 months old, giving 9-10 mileage in my home town. Rip it, and he says, he can literally see the fuel level dropping.

In any case, I don't see a particular reason for the mileage dropping for a new mpfi car. May be a blocked air filter. Also, how is the idling (rpm), do you smell the excess petrol?
dhanushs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd September 2011, 22:09   #576
BHPian
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Noida | Delhi
Posts: 317
Thanked: 160 Times
Question Ground clearance and fuel efficiency - is there a relationship?

Hi folks,

Adequate ground clearance is essential to avoid scraping of a car’s bottom. Users on this forum would tend to generally converge on a number of 170 mm of average GC for a normal sedan. (Let’s not debate the number though!) At the same time, the decision of GC is affected by the need to ensure adequate handling of the car, which is adversely impacted with an increase in GC. Of course, there are other secondary factors like wheelbase and suspension setup that further affect the decision on this.

My question is whether GC affects the aerodynamic drag of a car and thereby its FE. There seems to be little on this either on team-bhp or on the net. I am prima facie inclined to believe that there is no such relationship.

However, my query arises, because I have seen a few cars with amazing handling than usually demanded by most Indians, who decide success of a car. A car like Linea MJD, with its phenomenal handling, could possibly afford to increase its pathetic GC without any unacceptable sacrifice on its handling behaviour. Also, Honda is traditionally known to offer low GC (with the pleasant exception of its upcoming Brio) and is known for segment leading FE figures. Why do these cars come with such a poor GC? Is FE a decision factor while determining the GC? Or is it just that the manufactures assume that most buyers do not bother about this aspect and do not pay enough attention?

I also understand that there are indirect factors, like the need to provide wider tyres with an increase in GC to ensure adequate handling, that can adversely affect the FE. At the same time, the tyres with a bigger diameter can result in higher FE (low rpm for same distance covered). This leads me to a corollary query. You often see cars having different trims equipped with different wheels and tyres. Do such different variants have different GC, and also different FE figures? It would seem so at first glance. But the manufacturer does not specify different GC/FE for such different trims. This means there are only two possibilities
  • Either the manufacturer is not telling the whole truth
  • GC is equalized through other means. If so, what are these measures?
To sum up, I have the following two queries
  1. Whether GC has any effect, whether direct or indirect, on a car’s FE? If yes, what are these effects?
  2. Do the different variants of a car having different tyres & and wheel sets have different GC? If so, why do manufacturers do not specify it? Also, would such two variants would have different, even if marginal, FE figures - on account of GC and/or differing wheel sets?
Let me now step aside and make way for knowledgeable views.

Last edited by RadiantKarma : 23rd September 2011 at 23:12.
RadiantKarma is offline   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 13th December 2011, 12:48   #577
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 6
Thanked: 0 Times
Default Honda City Zx 2006 / 34000 kms

I live in Mumbai and have been getting abt 9kmpl while driving mostly in the suburbs.

I have read a lot about cars giving the best return if driven between 70-80 kmh and decided to test this while on my recent trip to Pune. Between the HPCL petrol pump on the way to Pune and the IOCL petrol pump on the way back, I travelled 234 kms and on refilling at IOCL I realised I had just managed getting a mileage of 17.84 kmpl !!

I had tried not to exceed 80kmh and only during a few attempts to overtake did i probably exceed the speed and touch 90kmh tops.

Supremely impressed with the results. But i must admit it was a pain to drive at such slow speeds on an empty road. post refilling at IOCL I began to enjoy my driving when I was between 120-140 kmh

Last edited by Jaggu : 13th December 2011 at 14:08. Reason: Please use Search before opening a new thread. thanks
amitmk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th February 2012, 08:38   #578
BHPian
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: chennai
Posts: 356
Thanked: 61 Times
Default Re: Ground clearance and fuel efficiency - is there a relationship?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RadiantKarma View Post
Hi folks,

Adequate ground clearance is essential to avoid scraping of a carís bottom. Users on this forum would tend to generally converge on a number of 170 mm of average GC for a normal sedan. (Letís not debate the number though!) At the same time, the decision of GC is affected by the need to ensure adequate handling of the car, which is adversely impacted with an increase in GC. Of course, there are other secondary factors like wheelbase and suspension setup that further affect the decision on this.

My question is whether GC affects the aerodynamic drag of a car and thereby its FE. There seems to be little on this either on team-bhp or on the net. I am prima facie inclined to believe that there is no such relationship.

However, my query arises, because I have seen a few cars with amazing handling than usually demanded by most Indians, who decide success of a car. A car like Linea MJD, with its phenomenal handling, could possibly afford to increase its pathetic GC without any unacceptable sacrifice on its handling behaviour. Also, Honda is traditionally known to offer low GC (with the pleasant exception of its upcoming Brio) and is known for segment leading FE figures. Why do these cars come with such a poor GC? Is FE a decision factor while determining the GC? Or is it just that the manufactures assume that most buyers do not bother about this aspect and do not pay enough attention?

I also understand that there are indirect factors, like the need to provide wider tyres with an increase in GC to ensure adequate handling, that can adversely affect the FE. At the same time, the tyres with a bigger diameter can result in higher FE (low rpm for same distance covered). This leads me to a corollary query. You often see cars having different trims equipped with different wheels and tyres. Do such different variants have different GC, and also different FE figures? It would seem so at first glance. But the manufacturer does not specify different GC/FE for such different trims. This means there are only two possibilities
  • Either the manufacturer is not telling the whole truth
  • GC is equalized through other means. If so, what are these measures?
To sum up, I have the following two queries
  1. Whether GC has any effect, whether direct or indirect, on a carís FE? If yes, what are these effects?
  2. Do the different variants of a car having different tyres & and wheel sets have different GC? If so, why do manufacturers do not specify it? Also, would such two variants would have different, even if marginal, FE figures - on account of GC and/or differing wheel sets?
Let me now step aside and make way for knowledgeable views.
Yes for ques no 1. Reasons? Don't know enough.

For ques no 2. Manufacturers do not specify anything as the difference is only minimal. They also take us for granted perhaps.
skdking is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd March 2012, 13:06   #579
BHPian
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Noida | Delhi
Posts: 317
Thanked: 160 Times
Default Re: Ground clearance and fuel efficiency - is there a relationship?

Quote:
Originally Posted by skdking View Post
For ques no 2. Manufacturers do not specify anything as the difference is only minimal.
In case of Etios, see below the difference between different variants having different rim/tyre sizes (as calculated on www.1010tires.com):
Name:  tyre size.jpg
Views: 1283
Size:  55.6 KB
Pl. note that the difference in radius (wouldn't that also be the difference in GC?) is over 10 mm, which is rather substantial.

Quote:
They also take us for granted perhaps.
Yes, perhaps.
RadiantKarma is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 5th March 2012, 12:13   #580
BHPian
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 25
Thanked: 2 Times
Default Re: ARTICLE: How to get the maximum Fuel Efficiency

From my personal experience I can say...
a. The bigger dia of the tyre definitely contributes to better fuel efficiency. When I changed the tyres of my Indica from 155/70 to 175/80, the FE jumped by a phenomenal 20%.
b. With a wider and bigger dia tyre, the increased ground clearance contributed to safety by easily overcoming the numerous speed breakers all over the country, apart from giving the car a firmer grip on the road, doing away with the need for a spoiler at high speeds. Earlier, beyond 80 KMPH, the car would simply go waving from side to side ; now even beyond 100, there were no shakes...
c. Of course, the strength of the axle plays a major role in long term effects of this on the overall reliability. The increased rolling has to be acceptable to the axle dia and material ; otherwise, the extra radial load would cause axle break-down very fast. For the manufacturer of the car, this would entail extra costing and hence they do not advocate this.
d. See the tyres of all hi-end cars. The bigger tyres lead to better performance all around with rim dia as much as R19 and beyond.
e. Volvo buses are a classic example of this technology.
refaircargo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th March 2012, 13:10   #581
BHPian
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Bangalore,Coorg
Posts: 720
Thanked: 302 Times
Default Re: ARTICLE: How to get the maximum Fuel Efficiency

Quote:
Originally Posted by refaircargo View Post
From my personal experience I can say...
a. The bigger dia of the tyre definitely contributes to better fuel efficiency. When I changed the tyres of my Indica from 155/70 to 175/80, the FE jumped by a phenomenal 20%.
b. With a wider and bigger dia tyre, the increased ground clearance contributed to safety by easily overcoming the numerous speed breakers all over the country, apart from giving the car a firmer grip on the road, doing away with the need for a spoiler at high speeds. Earlier, beyond 80 KMPH, the car would simply go waving from side to side ; now even beyond 100, there were no shakes...
c. Of course, the strength of the axle plays a major role in long term effects of this on the overall reliability. The increased rolling has to be acceptable to the axle dia and material ; otherwise, the extra radial load would cause axle break-down very fast. For the manufacturer of the car, this would entail extra costing and hence they do not advocate this.
d. See the tyres of all hi-end cars. The bigger tyres lead to better performance all around with rim dia as much as R19 and beyond.
e. Volvo buses are a classic example of this technology.
I am wondering whether the bigger tyres contributed to a better driving style which resulted in better FE. Did it sit better on the road and hence you could drive more smoothly. Also, with the better GC were you able to drive over the worse road better and thus not keep accelerating and braking as much as before when you were worried about the bottom of the car scraping.
pganapathy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th March 2012, 11:34   #582
BHPian
 
arjyamaj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: NCT
Posts: 69
Thanked: 22 Times
Post Re: ARTICLE: How to get the maximum Fuel Efficiency

Quote:
Originally Posted by refaircargo View Post
From my personal experience I can say...
a. The bigger dia of the tyre definitely contributes to better fuel efficiency. When I changed the tyres of my Indica from 155/70 to 175/80, the FE jumped by a phenomenal 20%.
b. With a wider and bigger dia tyre, the increased ground clearance contributed to safety by easily overcoming the numerous speed breakers all over the country, apart from giving the car a firmer grip on the road, doing away with the need for a spoiler at high speeds. Earlier, beyond 80 KMPH, the car would simply go waving from side to side ; now even beyond 100, there were no shakes...
c. Of course, the strength of the axle plays a major role in long term effects of this on the overall reliability. The increased rolling has to be acceptable to the axle dia and material ; otherwise, the extra radial load would cause axle break-down very fast. For the manufacturer of the car, this would entail extra costing and hence they do not advocate this.
d. See the tyres of all hi-end cars. The bigger tyres lead to better performance all around with rim dia as much as R19 and beyond.
e. Volvo buses are a classic example of this technology.
Wouldnt larger tyres have a larger footprint (which leads to better grip I suppose)? Therefore with the larger footprint, wouldnt your rolling resistance be higher?

My two bits. I changed my engine oil to Mobil 1 in the last servicing of my car (Alto lxi). Marked increase in FE. Earlier it used to be around 16 kmpl in the city with the Ac off (in the winter). This winter its gone up to 18.5 on a tankfull to tankfull method. Am wondering though, if the higher cost of the synthetic oil is worth it?

Here's a calculation:

Running on mineral engine oil- FE = 16 kmpl (approx) (with Ac off and in the city)
Price of premuim petrol (Power, Speed, etc) in Delhi- Rs 69 (approx)
Running cost per km= 69/16= 4.31

Cost of changing to Mobil 1- Rs 3000 (including flushing, etc)


Running on synthetic engine oil- FE = 18.5 kmpl (approx) (with Ac off and in the city)
Price of premuim petrol (Power, Speed, etc) in Delhi- Rs 69 (approx)
Running cost per km= 69/18.5= 3.73

Saving per km= Rs 0.58

Therefore, I should be able to break even on the cost of the engine oil change a little over the 5K mark [3000/0.58= 5172 km (cost of oil change divided by the saving per km)]

Given that according to general consensus and the gurus here (ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil), synthetic oil is changed every 7.5K - 10K kms, I guess this would be a good argument to shift to synthetic oil to increase FE.

Am not taking into account the other advantages of synthetic oil.

My two bits
arjyamaj is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 12th March 2012, 13:39   #583
BHPian
 
dar3dev|l's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Bombay
Posts: 278
Thanked: 74 Times
Default Re: ARTICLE: How to get the maximum Fuel Efficiency

Quote:
Originally Posted by misquitas View Post
As far as I know, Hyundai does virtually nothing on the I10 during the first service. When I gave my I10 1.2 Kappa 2 Magna for its first service, all I was asked is if I had any issues/problems with the car. Then the car was sent for a wash and I got it within 2-3 hours. The actual service of the car took place during the SECOND service.
agree with misquitas on the first service thing for the i10. They just clean & wash the car and return it back to you. The second service is when the Oil change, filter change.

@sbiswas: So unless you have not mentioned anything that would make them retune the engine or ECU there should be any drop in the FE against to what you use to get before the 1st service.st service.

Last edited by dar3dev|l : 12th March 2012 at 13:41.
dar3dev|l is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2012, 13:13   #584
BHPian
 
Kamal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: N.Delhi
Posts: 67
Thanked: 35 Times
Default Re: ARTICLE: How to get the maximum Fuel Efficiency

Quote:
Originally Posted by arjyamaj View Post
Wouldnt larger tyres have a larger footprint (which leads to better grip I suppose)? Therefore with the larger footprint, wouldnt your rolling resistance be higher?

My two bits. I changed my engine oil to Mobil 1 in the last servicing of my car (Alto lxi). Marked increase in FE. Earlier it used to be around 16 kmpl in the city with the Ac off (in the winter). This winter its gone up to 18.5 on a tankfull to tankfull method. Am wondering though, if the higher cost of the synthetic oil is worth it?

Here's a calculation:

Running on mineral engine oil- FE = 16 kmpl (approx) (with Ac off and in the city)
Price of premuim petrol (Power, Speed, etc) in Delhi- Rs 69 (approx)
Running cost per km= 69/16= 4.31

Cost of changing to Mobil 1- Rs 3000 (including flushing, etc)


Running on synthetic engine oil- FE = 18.5 kmpl (approx) (with Ac off and in the city)
Price of premuim petrol (Power, Speed, etc) in Delhi- Rs 69 (approx)
Running cost per km= 69/18.5= 3.73

Saving per km= Rs 0.58

Therefore, I should be able to break even on the cost of the engine oil change a little over the 5K mark [3000/0.58= 5172 km (cost of oil change divided by the saving per km)]

Given that according to general consensus and the gurus here (ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil), synthetic oil is changed every 7.5K - 10K kms, I guess this would be a good argument to shift to synthetic oil to increase FE.

Am not taking into account the other advantages of synthetic oil.

My two bits
Interesting.
You know, I made it a practice to use a much better grade of engine oil than what service stations normally use for replacement, hence I carry my own can of oil.
In my 93 model M800, I used Castrol GTX right from the start( i.e, from the time I bought it 2nd hand, @ a speedo reading of 73,000 ) & switched to Castrol Magnatec as soon as it was launched.
I'm very regular with engine oil/oil filter changes.
As a result of this, the 800's engine is still silky @ 1.5 lac kms.
Starting is easier in the Delhi winters etc but I never noticed better mileage as a result of using a higher quality of oil than prescribed.
I use the same practice wrt my 97 model Esteem.
I wonder why owners manuals always seem to recommend the "bare minimum" grade of oil, when, for a few Rs more, you can get much better protection/engine life.
Strange.
Kamal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2012, 19:18   #585
BHPian
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Bangalore,Coorg
Posts: 720
Thanked: 302 Times
Default Re: ARTICLE: How to get the maximum Fuel Efficiency

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamal View Post
I wonder why owners manuals always seem to recommend the "bare minimum" grade of oil, when, for a few Rs more, you can get much better protection/engine life.
Strange.
The logic from an OEM point of view is very simple. The bare minimum grade is cheaper than a better oil. Therefore, it costs less for the initial manufacture, and it keeps service costs down. Both are better from a financial perspective. The first for the OEM and the second for the customer.

For an OEM, if they save say 1,000 rupees a car, that is a huge amount. Multiply that into 100,000 cars manufactured and the amount saved is 100,000,000. That is 10 crores. Which is why they skimp on so many essential items like say a passenger side rear view mirror, oils etc.

For the average Indian customer, that saving of 1,000 rupees per service seems to be important. I can't explain it, but when the first question most people have is "What mileage does your car give you" I guess the OEM's are tapping into that mentality. Only people that are concerned about their cars, and those that are far sighted (more expense now equates longer vehicle life and overall lesser expenditure) go for better quality oils. A small minority of customers in this country unfortunately.
pganapathy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What is your Actual Fuel Efficiency? normally_crazy The Indian Car Scene 4054 21st April 2014 11:45
Article on how ARAI conducts its fuel-efficiency tests vishnurp99 Technical Stuff 25 20th April 2011 03:59
Fuel Efficiency Tips nicejits Modifications & Accessories 2 28th June 2007 13:27
Fuel Efficiency madhav Technical Stuff 10 5th June 2007 19:46


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 13:06.

Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Team-BHP.com