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Old 12th February 2012, 13:51   #16
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Default Re: 1966 1600 TS VW Fastback Restoration

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Originally Posted by PAVAN KADAM View Post
The Anti-Rust liquid came from Mumbai a couple of days ago, But to apply this the surface has to be CLEAN BARE METAL.

Somehow did not understand the way it works when we do the body tapping and start applying Polyster Putty (3M Bondo)

We sprayed, did not give a good coat, we applied it with Brush, still did not give a proper coat.

Our Member Kasli has been using this solution on his cars, would request him to throw some light on the same
Good going. BTW, why is the paint being burnt off rather than scraped off??!

Also what brand is this anti-rust treatmet? How do you get it?
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Old 12th February 2012, 18:35   #17
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Default Re: 1966 1600 TS VW Fastback Restoration

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Good going. BTW, why is the paint being burnt off rather than scraped off??!

Also what brand is this anti-rust treatmet? How do you get it?
Shyam, there are certain patches on the body surface that has too much of Green Metal Paste, Only those areas are burnt to scrape, the rest of the surface is being scraped using Paint Remover.

Kasli sir would be the best to give out more information regarding the Anti-Rust solution.
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Old 13th February 2012, 17:55   #18
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Default Re: 1966 1600 TS VW Fastback Restoration

Some more pics of the anti-rust treatment

I am getting a little skeptical with the way its coating on the surface..
Attached Thumbnails
1966 1600 TS VW Fastback Restoration-imag_0840.jpg  

1966 1600 TS VW Fastback Restoration-imag_0841.jpg  

1966 1600 TS VW Fastback Restoration-imag_0842.jpg  

1966 1600 TS VW Fastback Restoration-imag_0843.jpg  

1966 1600 TS VW Fastback Restoration-imag_0851.jpg  


Last edited by PAVAN KADAM : 13th February 2012 at 18:03.
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Old 13th February 2012, 18:06   #19
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Default Re: 1966 1600 TS VW Fastback Restoration

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Originally Posted by PAVAN KADAM View Post
Some more pics of the anti-rust treatment

I am getting a little skeptical with the way its coating on the surface..
Pawan you are going great guns, I request more information from you or Aniruddh on the anti rust treatment .
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Old 14th February 2012, 11:30   #20
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Default Re: 1966 1600 TS VW Fastback Restoration

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Originally Posted by PAVAN KADAM View Post
Some more pics of the anti-rust treatment

I am getting a little skeptical with the way its coating on the surface..

Pavan,

I may be able to contribute here regarding the anti-rust solution. Mr. Rahul Sircar has used it on my 1958 Merc Ponton extensively and I have also used it extensively on the 1961 Merc 220S, adkol's 1949 Citroen & another car which is underway. Is your chemical colourless like water? Mine is.

If you're using what I think you're using, it's a metal rust converter. It basically converts the ferrous (or ferric?) oxide to a phosphate, probably zinc phosphate.

Here's how you use it:

1) Ensure that the metal surface has been scraped/sanded as squeaky clean as possible. Wipe off any dust with a clean cloth with either thinner or Turpentine.

2) Take another clean cloth, dip it in the chemical and apply an even, thin layer on the metal surface. Allow it to dry till a greyish white layer is formed on the metal (should happen in 15 to 30 min.).

3) With another dry cloth, wipe of all this residue.

4) Finally with another clean cloth, clean off the panels with turpentine or thinner, making sure that there is absolutely no chemical residue left over. This is a must. Then you can apply any primer you want.

The chemical itself is generic, they are metal phosphate converters, which are manufactured and sold under different brand names. In Kolkata, they are not readily available, ie. off the shelf. I had to order it specially from the manufacturer who only supplies in 20 litre drums for industrial use! But they were kind enough to give some of it in 5 litre jars. It's also expensive, but really good if you want to ensure that the car will be rust free for a long time.

The blow torch burning off the paint method is something I've never seen before. I'm working on something which had thick multiple layers of paint coupled with huge amounts of bondo/filler/putty but I just got the scrappers to apply loads of paint remover and scrape it down over several days.


Hope the chemical part helps.


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Old 14th February 2012, 20:59   #21
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Default Re: 1966 1600 TS VW Fastback Restoration

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Originally Posted by mbz180 View Post
Pavan,

I may be able to contribute here regarding the anti-rust solution. Mr. Rahul Sircar has used it on my 1958 Merc Ponton extensively and I have also used it extensively on the 1961 Merc 220S, adkol's 1949 Citroen & another car which is underway. Is your chemical colourless like water? Mine is.

If you're using what I think you're using, it's a metal rust converter. It basically converts the ferrous (or ferric?) oxide to a phosphate, probably zinc phosphate.

Here's how you use it:

1) Ensure that the metal surface has been scraped/sanded as squeaky clean as possible. Wipe off any dust with a clean cloth with either thinner or Turpentine.

2) Take another clean cloth, dip it in the chemical and apply an even, thin layer on the metal surface. Allow it to dry till a greyish white layer is formed on the metal (should happen in 15 to 30 min.).

3) With another dry cloth, wipe of all this residue.

4) Finally with another clean cloth, clean off the panels with turpentine or thinner, making sure that there is absolutely no chemical residue left over. This is a must. Then you can apply any primer you want.

The chemical itself is generic, they are metal phosphate converters, which are manufactured and sold under different brand names. In Kolkata, they are not readily available, ie. off the shelf. I had to order it specially from the manufacturer who only supplies in 20 litre drums for industrial use! But they were kind enough to give some of it in 5 litre jars. It's also expensive, but really good if you want to ensure that the car will be rust free for a long time.

The blow torch burning off the paint method is something I've never seen before. I'm working on something which had thick multiple layers of paint coupled with huge amounts of bondo/filler/putty but I just got the scrappers to apply loads of paint remover and scrape it down over several days.


Hope the chemical part helps.


Regards
mbz180
Hi Prithvi,

Thank you very much for the useful information.

I have used this on the car, have let it dry for over 3 days.

I am sorry to say, the whole labour and time seems to be of waste.

This is what i get to see today morning.

Even if i apply a REAL THICK COAT for the second time, i can see rusting below. So literally there is NO PURPOSE SERVED with this liquid, or maybe there is a different technique to mix this before application.
Attached Thumbnails
1966 1600 TS VW Fastback Restoration-imag_0858.jpg  

1966 1600 TS VW Fastback Restoration-imag_0859.jpg  

1966 1600 TS VW Fastback Restoration-imag_0860.jpg  

1966 1600 TS VW Fastback Restoration-imag_0861.jpg  

1966 1600 TS VW Fastback Restoration-imag_0862.jpg  

1966 1600 TS VW Fastback Restoration-imag_0863.jpg  

1966 1600 TS VW Fastback Restoration-imag_0864.jpg  

1966 1600 TS VW Fastback Restoration-imag_0865.jpg  

1966 1600 TS VW Fastback Restoration-imag_0866.jpg  

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Old 15th February 2012, 10:53   #22
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Default Re: 1966 1600 TS VW Fastback Restoration

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Originally Posted by PAVAN KADAM View Post
Hi Prithvi,

Thank you very much for the useful information.

I have used this on the car, have let it dry for over 3 days.

I am sorry to say, the whole labour and time seems to be of waste.

This is what i get to see today morning.

Even if i apply a REAL THICK COAT for the second time, i can see rusting below. So literally there is NO PURPOSE SERVED with this liquid, or maybe there is a different technique to mix this before application.
Pavan,

I just noticed something in your process that I hadn't before. The paint remover and scraping is done of course before replacing the corroded areas but the rust converter chemical is to be applied only after all the corroded areas have been replaced with new metal. There's no point in applying the chemical before the same as the really rusty areas will be replaced in any case.

Cheers
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Old 15th February 2012, 12:10   #23
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Default Re: 1966 1600 TS VW Fastback Restoration

Pawan, Prithvi -

I think there is some kind of mis understanding (at least for me). Please guide me.

There are two types of chemicals available -

1.) Rust remover

A rust remover is an acid based compound (Sulphuric or phosphoric acid). After using Sulphuric acid, you have to neutralize the surface(this is whole process is called acid pickling), with phosphoric acid we need not neutralise the surface.

Many leave on rust converters are modified phosphoric acid based compounds like Rust bullet, Rustolene etc. etc. Some have an added advantage. example most of the chemicals require through cleaning / rust removal before application. But Rust Bullet does not require any pre conditioning of surface, just a cleaning will do.

P.S.: Please do not add any thing not even a drop of sweat to these compounds (phosphoric acid based), else it will render the compound useless.

2.) Rust protector

These are basically a barrier between the metal and enviornment. So all the coatings like galvanizing, chrome plating, painting, powder coating, tar based coating, epoxy coating fall under this category.

These are good only when you have a contaminat and rust free surface. if even a small percentage of rust is present the chemical reaction of formation of ferric oxide will continue.

Most of these chemicals are either premixed or have to be mixed with the supplied solvent (thinner or an hardner whatever be the case be).

So I have a big doubt of what are we using here?? Pawan can you let us know further of what is the compound that is being used. From the pictures it is not clear.

I think in all probability what we are using here is a Rust protector and not a remover.
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Old 15th February 2012, 15:05   #24
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Default Re: 1966 1600 TS VW Fastback Restoration

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Originally Posted by manishalive View Post
Pawan, Prithvi -

I think there is some kind of mis understanding (at least for me). Please guide me.

There are two types of chemicals available -

1.) Rust remover

A rust remover is an acid based compound (Sulphuric or phosphoric acid). After using Sulphuric acid, you have to neutralize the surface(this is whole process is called acid pickling), with phosphoric acid we need not neutralise the surface.

Many leave on rust converters are modified phosphoric acid based compounds like Rust bullet, Rustolene etc. etc.
Manish,

You have hit on something that I had little understanding of so far. I thought that the chemical that I use (a rust converter as you put it simply) was an alkali. When you said acid, I looked up the net and was surprised to note that these chemicals are acid based, for eg. like you said Phosphoric acid and it reacts with the metal to produce its salt, a Phosphate which then gives a great base for rust protection coats like epoxy primers.

The chemical I use is without the advantage of Rust Bullet, I have to clean it off thoroughly or else the primer will react with the salts etc.

You maybe right in saying that Pavan is using a protector and not a remover since I see no formation of the crystalline salts, just a gooey tar like liquid (sorry Pavan). Now how does one get rid of all that? I guess it'll take a lot of solvent like thinner or something to do the job.


Prithvi
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Old 15th February 2012, 20:30   #25
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Default Re: 1966 1600 TS VW Fastback Restoration

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Manish,

You have hit on something that I had little understanding of so far. I thought that the chemical that I use (a rust converter as you put it simply) was an alkali. When you said acid, I looked up the net and was surprised to note that these chemicals are acid based, for eg. like you said Phosphoric acid and it reacts with the metal to produce its salt, a Phosphate which then gives a great base for rust protection coats like epoxy primers.

The chemical I use is without the advantage of Rust Bullet, I have to clean it off thoroughly or else the primer will react with the salts etc.

You maybe right in saying that Pavan is using a protector and not a remover since I see no formation of the crystalline salts, just a gooey tar like liquid (sorry Pavan). Now how does one get rid of all that? I guess it'll take a lot of solvent like thinner or something to do the job.


Prithvi
Atleast you cleared some of the cloud . Now awaiting Pawan Anna's response. May be Anirudh can also answer my query.
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Old 15th February 2012, 20:56   #26
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Default Re: 1966 1600 TS VW Fastback Restoration

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Pavan,

I just noticed something in your process that I hadn't before. The paint remover and scraping is done of course before replacing the corroded areas but the rust converter chemical is to be applied only after all the corroded areas have been replaced with new metal. There's no point in applying the chemical before the same as the really rusty areas will be replaced in any case.

Cheers
mbz180
Procedure followed during application.

1) Scraped the surface to bare metal
2) Sanded the metal surface with 2000 grit paper to remove all residues
3) Cleaned it with thinner to remove moisture
4) Applied the rust converter with paint Brush

This was the usual instruction given to me.

But sadly, it did not work as per instructed.

Sirjee , i fail to understand one thing...

If in case this is a rust converter as its called, it should also not allow rusting right

Why on earth is the oxidation started on GOOD SURFACE, in this case, the same will happen even on the replaced panels.! care to explain.
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Old 16th February 2012, 01:08   #27
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Default Re: 1966 1600 TS VW Fastback Restoration

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WORK ON HOLD guys.. So no updates will be available untill next week.

The workshop is getting shifted to a bigger place and this week i shall take a break from Restorations and concentrate FULL TIME on my regular job for a change

Anyways, that does not stop me from doing my usual stuff. Researched a bit about this particular car and through its chassis number found out this particular car is a "1966 1600 TS VW FASTBACK"

Certain things were infact specific only to this particular model

1) Has a TS Badge on either side of Fenders
2) The rear badge says VW 1600 TS
3) Twin port, + Twin carb 1600 cc engine
4) Does not have an Ash-tray on the dash, but on either of door pads
5) Comes with the Beetle kind of steering wheel
6) NO reverse / Back-up light
7) No High-back seats
8) Clear lens indicator lenses with orange back
9) Chrome inside rear view mirror (contd even in the 67 TL)
10) Comes with single color Fabric/ Vinyl seat covers

Most importantly

11) Has Ivory switch knobs which is present only to this ONE YEAR model.

Most of the changes are cosmetical only, but surprisingly and interestingly a 65hp 1600cc Twin-carb engine.

First of all, the car looks astonishingly good! Why was it even left to die like this? Great to see someone restoring it. Since its a Volkswagen, finding original parts shouldn't be that tough. I searched for it on eBay and found a few parts that you might need in the future. Have a look at it here:

Volkswagen 1600 | eBay

1966 Volkswagen 1600 | eBay

Also, you have put up a picture of a Blue 1600 TS, and I would suggest you to go for that shade. It looks awesome in it. I think its the same shade that you now get on the Hyundai Eon/i20 and hence it'll be easily available in the market.

I'll be regularly following this thread now and I wish you all the best with the restoration.
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Old 16th February 2012, 10:47   #28
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Default Re: 1966 1600 TS VW Fastback Restoration

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Originally Posted by PAVAN KADAM View Post
Procedure followed during application.

1) Scraped the surface to bare metal
2) Sanded the metal surface with 2000 grit paper to remove all residues
3) Cleaned it with thinner to remove moisture
4) Applied the rust converter with paint Brush

This was the usual instruction given to me.

But sadly, it did not work as per instructed.

Sirjee , i fail to understand one thing...

If in case this is a rust converter as its called, it should also not allow rusting right

Why on earth is the oxidation started on GOOD SURFACE, in this case, the same will happen even on the replaced panels.! care to explain.
Can you read out as to what is written on the label of the chemical can, or can provide a picture of the same. Probably this will give us some insight.
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Old 16th February 2012, 10:52   #29
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Default Re: 1966 1600 TS VW Fastback Restoration

Quote:
Originally Posted by PAVAN KADAM View Post
Procedure followed during application.

1) Scraped the surface to bare metal
2) Sanded the metal surface with 2000 grit paper to remove all residues
3) Cleaned it with thinner to remove moisture
4) Applied the rust converter with paint Brush

This was the usual instruction given to me.

But sadly, it did not work as per instructed.

Sirjee , i fail to understand one thing...

If in case this is a rust converter as its called, it should also not allow rusting right

Why on earth is the oxidation started on GOOD SURFACE, in this case, the same will happen even on the replaced panels.! care to explain.
I'm a little confused here myself. Let's assume a normal scenario, ie. you actually have a rust converter chemical. Now here's what I would do:

1) Scrape/apply paint remover and remove all the paint

2) Once the above is done, all the areas with holes, corrosion etc. will be visible. Coat the rest of the surface with an oil, say engine oil to prevent the bare metal of the good parts catching surface rust (this last oil part is a home found method and works to some extent).

3) Replace the areas which are bad with new panels/etc.

4) Remove the oil coating with thinner/turpentine and then again sand the surface to bare metal.

5) Apply the rust converter chemical in a thin film with a cloth as I've explained eraly, give it 15-30 mins for it to react and the greyish white layer of the acid's salt to form. Clean all the residue with a clean cloth with thinner etc.

6) Now you have a completely rust free surface which is ready for rust protection coats.

This is how it should work. If the chemical is not doing this then it's not the correct chemical

Best Regards
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Old 16th February 2012, 11:20   #30
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Default Re: 1966 1600 TS VW Fastback Restoration

Prithvi,

Your explanation is right on spot. I would like to add some thing from this website

"Rust converters are designed to neutralize existing rust as well as prevent it from advancing its damage. The active ingredient in most rust converters is Tannin, in the form of tannic acid. This tannic acid combines with the Iron Oxide to form a more stable compound called Iron Tannate, which is typically black in color compared to the reddish color of rust. Many commercial rust converters will include both a polymer to act as a protective layer, and an additional acidic compound designed to accelerate the chemical processes related to the tannic acids. One such acid, known as Phosphoric acid may also work as a rust converter itself, by reacting with the Iron oxide and converting it to black ferric phosphate."

How Does a Rust Converter Work? - Autos.com

This for our understanding.
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