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Old 6th March 2013, 22:13   #16
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Default Re: Kolkata - 1959 Fiat Milicento / Select

Hi Friends,

Update on my car:

1) All body panels taken off and scraping in progress.

2) Apoulstry openned up. The seats are original although tattered. However the door pads have been changed over the years, so if one could post a picture of an original door pad pattern for a select, it would be wonderful.

3) Aircleaner, metal blade fan, weatherstrips with aluminium strip, boot hinge, procured.

4) On scraping we found the original colour of the car to be black, as mentioned by some expert on this tread. The body does'nt even have a hammer mark on it, and the body line is worth dying for. No other colour apart from black could do justice. There is only superficial rust which is minor.

Experts kindly PM me if you come across any leads relating to the spares this beauty requires..
Warm Regards..
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Old 7th March 2013, 19:36   #17
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Default Re: Kolkata - 1959 Fiat Milicento / Select

Last night's posts got me motivated and I went to see the progress this afternoon.
Here a few photos that I took and I am going to make a point of visiting more often. I was surprised that so much work had been done in such a short time. It's going to be a show stopper!

One of the questions Shriv asked me that I couldn't answer was; did it come with the concealed gas cap or had it been modified? I know that on my WBF1 it had the exposed filler pipe with a non original locking cap. I went through the pros & cons and decided that based on photos of the Italian Fiat 1100 Deluxe models I would have a concealed one fabricated and would "restore" the car to the Italian Deluxe specs as closely as possible.

When inspecting the metal work around the door opening, there was no typical welding marks that would indicate that it was not a modification. I'm no an expert on these fine details and would be interested in any comments.

The Body is in remarkable good shape and I would tend to agree that the 24,000 miles showing on the odometer are correct. It definitely was not very well maintained but is a low milage car. When I recall the shape of WBF1 when I first purchased it, I thought that the 42,000 miles must have once around, now I feel that it they must be the actual miles and well maintained.

I had suggested that Shriv might post a detailed journal of it's Restoration and much as he would like to, he's got 7 cars under restoration at the moment and just doesn't have the time. So he's quite pleased to have me post whatever photos I can. As we will be returning to Toronto the end of April I am hoping that it should be almost completed.

I'm particularly pleased that he is being such a "purist" and so concerned that everything is as close to original as possible.
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Old 7th March 2013, 20:38   #18
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Default Re: Kolkata - 1959 Fiat Milicento / Select

Hi John,

All selects came with external fuel filler pipes (1959 - 1960 2years) and all super selects (1961 -1962 2 years) came with flush mounted fuel filler openings.

The exact month of start and end of production of selects and that of super selects is not known.

Further in Selects we had both screw type and later quarter turn twist type For Elegents it was screw type and any change in specific parts was purely on the basis of availability of kits.

I had a select from Dec 1960 with a external but quarter turn twist type

And my current car is April 1959 and has screw type external fuel filler.

In all probability the car in question came with external fuel filler, if it is an early registration, then a screw type is the period correct one.
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Old 7th March 2013, 23:59   #19
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Default Re: Kolkata - 1959 Fiat Milicento / Select

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Originally Posted by manishalive View Post
Hi John,

All selects came with external fuel filler pipes (1959 - 1960 2years) and all super selects (1961 -1962 2 years) came with flush mounted fuel filler openings.

The exact month of start and end of production of selects and that of super selects is not known.

Further in Selects we had both screw type and later quarter turn twist type For Elegents it was screw type and any change in specific parts was purely on the basis of availability of kits.

I had a select from Dec 1960 with a external but quarter turn twist type

And my current car is April 1959 and has screw type external fuel filler.

In all probability the car in question came with external fuel filler, if it is an early registration, then a screw type is the period correct one.
Dear Sir,

Seeing the body scraped panel around the petrol lid, one can be dead sure that the area in concern has not been patched, thereby sujesting that the petrol lid was always there. I was even of the opinion that the petrol filler cap should be external on the selects, but after inspecting the area concern I am pretty sure that it has'nt been modefied.

Can anybody find me a push type rear dickey lock? I somewhat like John uncles Fiat sunvisor, which ofcource is an after market, and would,nt mind picking up a similar one for my car.

Warmest Regards.
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Old 8th March 2013, 07:26   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FIAT'57'Kolkata View Post

Dear Sir,

Seeing the body scraped panel around the petrol lid, one can be dead sure that the area in concern has not been patched, thereby sujesting that the petrol lid was always there. I was even of the opinion that the petrol filler cap should be external on the selects, but after inspecting the area concern I am pretty sure that it has'nt been modefied.

Can anybody find me a push type rear dickey lock? I somewhat like John uncles Fiat sunvisor, which ofcource is an after market, and would,nt mind picking up a similar one for my car.

Warmest Regards.
May be the rear fender was replaced. Look from the inside. I gave information based on my experience and the information flow in the forum. I will stand corrected if my info is wrong.

I am going tomorrow to Mubarak meter works, he deals in cosmetic parts, I will enquire for your lock.
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Old 8th March 2013, 08:44   #21
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Default Re: Kolkata - 1959 Fiat Milicento / Select

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May be the rear fender was replaced. Look from the inside. I gave information based on my experience and the information flow in the forum. I will stand corrected if my info is wrong.

I am going tomorrow to Mubarak meter works, he deals in cosmetic parts, I will enquire for your lock.
Dear Sir,

The fenders have not been replaced, which is visible to the eye if one observes the car in person. Yes, going by your advice I shall scrape the inside and post an update. This whole thing is leaving me confused, my research too, based on this forum, indicates the petrol filler being an external type. But however, post scraping from inside, and rechecking, if I still do not get any welding marks, I would be forced to believe that the petrol lid is original, and 'maybe' few selects came with the same.

I would be thankful if you could source the button lock for me . Kindly take a minute out and enquire about my other missing/ required parts, also (list given in my initial posts). This would be a much apreciated help from your end.

Warmest Regards..
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Old 8th March 2013, 09:52   #22
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Default Re: Kolkata - 1959 Fiat Milicento / Select

Here is an interesting point to discuss. We always assumed that Selects (from 1958 to 1962) had external fuel filler caps, and assumed those that had the flap were later alterations. Maybe most of them are later alterations, but this is the second case we see where there are no welding marks at all. We somehow always overlook the possibility of a 'run-out' change. Many companies would have a running change of some part, often towards the end of production depending on parts supply. It wouldn't be uncommon to see bits and pieces carried over to other models, like we see later slotted wheels on some Elegants.

I'd say if there is no evidence of the flap being grafted on, its quite likely to be original. Final call on what to do would of course be taken by the owner.

From my side I can say my 1960 Select and Rony's 1961 Select both have the external filler, and both are 100% original. What year is your car? Can you share the chassis number, so we can compare if earlier or later than ours?

Good luck with the restoration.
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Old 8th March 2013, 11:14   #23
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Default Re: Kolkata - 1959 Fiat Milicento / Select

On the Fuel Filler Cap discussion:
Loved the attention to detail - On the other end of the spectrum:

Guys I have a 1956 Fiat (in a covered garage since 10 year - was with us since before my birth and infact was my first vehicle to for daily office work 15 years back - will be restored after 6 months).

This has the with the fuel filler pipe in the dickey. The outside fender does not have any markings but I guess the fendors may have been replaced or my dad may have modified the fuel filler location such that the pipe stays in the Dickey and does not come out for petrol theft prevention purpose? Was there by any chance a model where the pipe remained in the Dickey originally?

The car was repainted many times over as I grew, Was Post Office red around 1970's in the decade of my birth then later Green, Light Blue, Dark Blue, Darker Blue (with back mixed), Post office Red, Post office Red with Black, and again the again Post Office Red with Black mixed. - Yep would not have clean lines that many love but One always loves ones own vehicles that one grows up with.
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Old 8th March 2013, 12:31   #24
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Default Re: Kolkata - 1959 Fiat Milicento / Select

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This has the with the fuel filler pipe in the dickey. The outside fender does not have any markings but I guess the fendors may have been replaced or my dad may have modified the fuel filler location such that the pipe stays in the Dickey and does not come out for petrol theft prevention purpose? Was there by any chance a model where the pipe remained in the Dickey originally?
I can be almost 100% certain to say no, it would have been a later alteration. A commonly done one at that, in both Fiat and Ambys. One reason is of course theft, but the other reason, espcially Ambys, is water seepage in the rains.

If you scrape down the fender you will see welding marks filling the hole where the pipe would have been.

Quote:
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Yep would not have clean lines that many love but One always loves ones own vehicles that one grows up with.
That is what is important, and looking forward to see your car restored. Do share some pics.
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Old 8th March 2013, 12:49   #25
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Default Re: Kolkata - 1959 Fiat Milicento / Select

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....................This has the with the fuel filler pipe in the dickey. The outside fender does not have any markings but I guess the fendors may have been replaced or my dad may have modified the fuel filler location ..........................The car was repainted many times over as I grew, Was Post Office red around 1970's in the decade of my birth then later Green, Light Blue, Dark Blue, Darker Blue (with back mixed), Post office Red, Post office Red with Black, and again the again Post Office Red with Black mixed. - Yep would not have clean lines that many love but One always loves ones own vehicles that one grows up with.
Your fuel filler is an alteration indeed, reason to bring it in was fuel theft, water running down the pipe, (all mentioned by Karl)and in the case of my Amby additionally the cap needed to be protected from the elements as the lock did get rusted and I was stranded, could not open the cap to fill fuel. Accessories were not always quality products.

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Originally Posted by karlosdeville View Post

One always loves ones own vehicles that one grows up with

That is what is important, and looking forward to see your car restored. ............
Indeed, ones loves the old vehicles which took us to schools, outings etc. Some of them were so horrible that we actually seemed to miss the torture. And so continue driving the Amby, albeit once in a blue moon.

Cheers harit

Last edited by harit : 8th March 2013 at 12:51.
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Old 8th March 2013, 14:32   #26
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Default Re: Kolkata - 1959 Fiat Milicento / Select

Quote:
Originally Posted by karlosdeville View Post
Here is an interesting point to discuss. We always assumed that Selects (from 1958 to 1962) had external fuel filler caps, and assumed those that had the flap were later alterations. Maybe most of them are later alterations, but this is the second case we see where there are no welding marks at all.

I'd say if there is no evidence of the flap being grafted on, its quite likely to be original. Final call on what to do would of course be taken by the owner.
Karl,

1962 will make then super selects and then these had the flap and consealed fuel filler, Am I right?

Any reference to the other case that you talk about. Also what Shriv has mentioned in the opening post is 1959 Select which would make his car an early model, thus for sure having external fuel filler.
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Old 8th March 2013, 15:22   #27
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Default Re: Kolkata - 1959 Fiat Milicento / Select

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Karl,

1962 will make then super selects and then these had the flap and consealed fuel filler, Am I right?

Any reference to the other case that you talk about. Also what Shriv has mentioned in the opening post is 1959 Select which would make his car an early model, thus for sure having external fuel filler.
1962 was a transition year, we see both Selects and Super Selects.

I would normally have thought that the filler neck should be external, but when no welding marks are visible, it makes a strong case. Never say never. The investigation continues.

EDIT - maybe if this was my car I would ask some really old timer denters who would normally do the alteration, how they did it and where the seams would normally have been.

Last edited by karlosdeville : 8th March 2013 at 15:23.
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Old 8th March 2013, 15:56   #28
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1962 was a transition year, we see both Selects and Super Selects.

I would normally have thought that the filler neck should be external, but when no welding marks are visible, it makes a strong case. Never say never. The investigation continues.

EDIT - maybe if this was my car I would ask some really old timer denters who would normally do the alteration, how they did it and where the seams would normally have been.
Hello,

1) I generaly do not go by the year of manufacture given in the RTO papers of these old cars. It was told to me that the car was a 1959, but it could be the later or an earlier select as well, which does,nt make any differnce to me. Therefore the best would be cross checking with the Chassis Number, which on this car is '824562'. Experts kindly throw some light. The things I could vouch for is that the car is a 'Select', the dickey lid is original (gowing by no welding marks on the body, in and out), and the rear mudguards have never been replaced. I along with my denter have made enough observations on this and reached to this conclusion.

2) The agent from who got me this car put me directly through its prevous owner. I spoke to the old Bengali gentleman directly. This car was his elder brothers, who had passed away. This man did not know much about the nitty-gritty as his brother was the one looking after it prior to his demise. The only two things he confirmed, was that the colour was changed from 'BLACK' to bluish grey sometime in the late 80's, so as to be adaptable for a family marriage 'BARAAT CAR', as black was disallowed religeously for this purpose. Secondly during this makeover, new deep brown seat covers were added on.

3) Expects kindly post a picture of an original Select door pad so that I could fabricate accordingely and incorporate the same in my car.

Thanking You.....
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Old 8th March 2013, 17:25   #29
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Default Re: Kolkata - 1959 Fiat Milicento / Select

Quote:
Originally Posted by karlosdeville View Post
1962 was a transition year, we see both Selects and Super Selects.

EDIT - maybe if this was my car I would ask some really old timer denters who would normally do the alteration, how they did it and where the seams would normally have been.
I love some of your Indian names for various workers. Tin-smiths for one and "denters", shouldn't they be called "un-denters"?.

Has anyone written a reasonably detailed book on Fiats in India?
Are there any production records still available.
What % of the car was shipped in for assembly and finishing?
Did this % decrease over the years?
Are there any photos of the Fiat assembly plant in India?
? ? ? ?, where does one find the answers?
Is there more to life than having a FIAT?
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Old 8th March 2013, 20:35   #30
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My car's chassis no start with 5 so definitely yours a much later car.

There was an article on autocar for fiats in India many years ago.

Also came to know prabal had written at a good length about fiats in India.
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