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Old 9th September 2013, 14:14   #1
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Default '53 Hindustan 14 - Engine advice needed

I have a 1953 H14 in perfect running condition, although with a diesel Matador engine. I use the car to to go to work, it has air conditioning (a must in Madras) and is problem free, though noisy! A gentleman is now offering me an original petrol side valve engine for the car.

My questions are the following:

1. Can the 1400 cc side valve engine handle the load of an AC, especially in city driving with some amount of stop-and-go?

2. Is the side valve engine difficult to maintain? In other words, I am likely to have more breakdowns with it than with my Matador diesel engine (one breakdown because of fuel pump in the past year)?

3. If the answer to Q1 is negative, what about fitting an OHV petrol engine in the car? Would that be able to handle an AC? Even though it wouldnt be an original H14 engine, it would be petrol rather than diesel.

Thanks for any advice in advance.

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Old 9th September 2013, 14:44   #2
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Default re: '53 Hindustan 14 - Engine advice needed

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Originally Posted by sidvar View Post
I have a 1953 H14 in perfect running condition, although with a diesel Matador engine. I use the car to to go to work, it has air conditioning (a must in Madras) and is problem free, though noisy! A gentleman is now offering me an original petrol side valve engine for the car.

My questions are the following:

1. Can the 1400 cc side valve engine handle the load of an AC, especially in city driving with some amount of stop-and-go?

2. Is the side valve engine difficult to maintain? In other words, I am likely to have more breakdowns with it than with my Matador diesel engine (one breakdown because of fuel pump in the past year)?

3. If the answer to Q1 is negative, what about fitting an OHV petrol engine in the car? Would that be able to handle an AC? Even though it wouldnt be an original H14 engine, it would be petrol rather than diesel.

Thanks for any advice in advance.

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Hi,
You seem to have a very neat and clean car ,body and trim fitting wise.The real value/worth and uniqueness of a vintage/classic car is recoginsed ,appreciated and enjoyed only if it has all original mechnicals,trim,fittings etc.

Since your car lacks only an engine(presuming the gear box)is original, this is a golden chance to get the original side valve engine.The versetility, running economics etc will change.One has to decide to either have a functional cheap to run car or a fast going scarce vintage car.Moreover the engine can be procured and kept stored safely for change over later.
The car seems to be a Hyd reg APX ____ .Good Luck
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Old 10th September 2013, 15:16   #3
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Default Re: '53 Hindustan 14 - Engine advice needed

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Originally Posted by sidvar View Post
I have a 1953 H14 in perfect running condition, although with a diesel Matador engine. I use the car to to go to work, it has air conditioning (a must in Madras) and is problem free, though noisy! A gentleman is now offering me an original petrol side valve engine for the car.

My questions are the following:

1. Can the 1400 cc side valve engine handle the load of an AC, especially in city driving with some amount of stop-and-go?

2. Is the side valve engine difficult to maintain? In other words, I am likely to have more breakdowns with it than with my Matador diesel engine (one breakdown because of fuel pump in the past year)?

3. If the answer to Q1 is negative, what about fitting an OHV petrol engine in the car? Would that be able to handle an AC? Even though it wouldnt be an original H14 engine, it would be petrol rather than diesel.
Hi Sidvar,

That's a neat looking car you have, with smart accessories.

While the Matador engine should give you great economy and practicality, I'm sure the refinement levels would leave much to be desired.

The ideal scenario should be to revert to the petrol side valve engine, though it would normally mean you would have to use the car more sparingly, and probably lose the AC (maybe I am wrong). These engines are old and worn out, and even overhauling them correctly is difficult, so not certain on the load of an AC.

The biggest drawback I have learnt with the side valve engines is related to the water passages corroding and water pump failure. Replacement parts are very difficult to find, so do check out the engine that is offered thoroughly and if it requires an overhaul. If in good shape, you will really enjoy the smooth and silent operation of the side valve engine.

If you are looking for other options you should be able to also run an Ambassador OHV petrol engine, which should be cheaper to find as well. Parts are also much easier to come across, and more people are accustomed to tuning them correctly. I have heard of people fitting ACs in Ambassadors, but never experienced them. Hopefully bulldogji can give us first hand experience.

Another option that springs to mind is using a modern Amby engine (petrol or diesel) - while you will still lose originality, performance should improve significantly, and you can run the AC.

Do share some more pictures of your car.
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Old 10th September 2013, 15:30   #4
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Default Re: '53 Hindustan 14 - Engine advice needed

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Originally Posted by karlosdeville View Post
Another option that springs to mind is using a modern Amby engine (petrol or diesel) - while you will still lose originality, performance should improve significantly, and you can run the AC.

Do share some more pictures of your car.
Karl, the main problem is the brakes in these cars. If you put a modern engine coupled with the body weight of these cars, you may not have adequate braking power. In today's driving condition you need good stopping power. Hence you may need to modify the complete braking system, if you want to put a modern engine.
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Old 10th September 2013, 15:41   #5
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Default Re: '53 Hindustan 14 - Engine advice needed

Before going for the sidevalve engine please check if it has the bell housing cover.If not you cannot fit it.
Also is your documents Diesel endorsed.IF so you cannot replace it with a petrol engine
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Old 10th September 2013, 16:05   #6
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Default Re: '53 Hindustan 14 - Engine advice needed

Quote:
My questions are the following:

1. Can the 1400 cc side valve engine handle the load of an AC, especially in city driving with some amount of stop-and-go?

2. Is the side valve engine difficult to maintain? In other words, I am likely to have more breakdowns with it than with my Matador diesel engine (one breakdown because of fuel pump in the past year)?

3. If the answer to Q1 is negative, what about fitting an OHV petrol engine in the car? Would that be able to handle an AC? Even though it wouldnt be an original H14 engine, it would be petrol rather than diesel.
I remember an uncle of mine who had a company provided AC Ambassador Mark 4 in the mid 80's -even driven it a few times. Though the cooling was adequate (as far as I can recall) the OHV engine struggled for power and was prone to overheating. So, I seriously doubt whether the even older side valve engine will be able to take the load of an air conditioner.
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Old 11th September 2013, 20:40   #7
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Default Re: '53 Hindustan 14 - Engine advice needed

Hi Sidvar and Karl,

I have happily used sanden 501 compressors on many ambassadors, mark 3 , 4 and the Nova.

Cooling was decent,, power output adequate, although hill climbs required the AC to be switched off, and a properly tuned engine, six blade fan, coolant to raise the boiling point of the cooling fluid worked fine. To prevent possible overheating problems in traffic, I had modified the water pump pulley so that it's RPM was greater than normal. This ensured better circulation of the coolant at idle and slow speeds as in stop/start traffic conditions.

When doing this you have to strike a balance because if the water pump pulley is much smaller, at high speeds you will have heating problems as the coolant circulates so fast that it has no time to lose heat through the radiator fins.

I managed to size the pulley to maintain coolant temperature between 80 and 87degrees Celsius in city traffic with the AC operating, and highway speeds of a max 120km/hr saw temperatures of around 82 degrees Celsius.

Ambassadors did touch speeds of 140 km/hr, but the whole car would feel as if it was disintegrating, so my experiment was to achieve a max 120 with no overheating problems.

I also threw out the thermostat which I felt was redundant in our climate anyway.

I would , having said this , stay with the current engine on your car, buy the petrol one , and keep it for the next owner, if he desires originality.
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Old 11th September 2013, 21:04   #8
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Default Re: '53 Hindustan 14 - Engine advice needed

First check up the condition of the offered engine. Hoping that the engine Is kept in a preserving mode, procuring that original side valve petrol engine is a must. These engines are getting scarcer by the day.
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Old 13th September 2013, 23:22   #9
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Default Re: '53 Hindustan 14 - Engine advice needed

The side valve engine has a 1476 cc capacity. Surely, these have become tough to source and are scarce.The spares are scarcer and its an uphill task to source the spares as an individual.

There is no question of even thinking of using an AC with this engine, even in a brand new condition, what to say about any old and used engine ? Its underpowered and as compared to the OHV engine, it feels running out of breath time and again.

As far as repairs of this engine are concerned, I had done a major overhaul job in 2011-12 and it took about four to five months to source all the spares viz. pistons,rings,gudgeon pins, crankshaft bearings,head gasket,water pump (had also conked off), a new water jacket/ sleeve had to be fabricated as the one fitted was corroded and many more. My workshop had done all the sourcing and repair job for me and I had very less botheration. And the mechanic who repaired it was a veteran, as you can see him in the pictures below.

The engine has got a a new lease of life and is a pleasure to drive.

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The veteran at work in two of the above pictures

All said and done, it would be wiser to buy this engine and keep it with you. You can later on decide as to what is to be done with it.
Presently, the Matador diesel serves your purpose as a daily driver, as it powers the AC and the spares are easier to source.

Last edited by anjan_c2007 : 13th September 2013 at 23:29.
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Old 14th September 2013, 00:25   #10
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Default Re: '53 Hindustan 14 - Engine advice needed

the answer to operating a Original Sidevalve is pretty clear. The morris Oxford 2 I believe did however come with an option for the AC, but im pretty sure Hindustan never offered it on any vehicles sold in India, as well the sidevalve's biggest flaw, and reason for decline was that these engines were known to overheat in the lightest of loads in tropical climates. The cooling system also didnt help, more than inadequate as my garage wallas tell me.

Any compatible diesel engine will do you better, as the price of petrol is crazy 81 INR/L and the KMPL is dreadful, without AC (imagine with AC).

To be honest, I would personally avoid fitting any AC unit to the vehicle, just cause the benefits are minimal at best.

1) the price of the compressor, additional fitment and labor is quite $$$.
2) the interior needs to be fitted with ducting
3) The seals on the doors need to be proper, or else the air will just leak thru ur doors, and you wont get the benefit of having an AC, unless your sitting directly infront of the air vents.
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Old 14th September 2013, 14:51   #11
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Default Re: '53 Hindustan 14 - Engine advice needed

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Originally Posted by 56landmaster View Post

The morris Oxford 2 I believe did however come with an option for the AC, but im pretty sure Hindustan never offered it on any vehicles sold in India, as well the sidevalve's biggest flaw, and reason for decline was that these engines were known to overheat in the lightest of loads in tropical climates. The cooling system also didnt help, more than inadequate as my garage wallas tell me.
True the side valve plus AC is an unthinkable option.But otherwise, the side valve is quite a tough taskmaster. It does its duty very well and very reliably, even on long distance drives. I have never faced any problems, other than the fact that it is underpowered.

The Morris Oxford Series II (our Landmaster) came with a heater in its highest (premium) version. These were sold as the Cowley (cheapest variant) with rexine covered coir seats, less chrome, no bumper guards and so on. The second version was our Landmaster like. And the highest version had a heater not AC. The difference on its exterior was that it had a cowl on the bonnet and could be made out.

All Oxford Series II's indeed, were powered by the BMC 1489 cc OHV engine. Morris had done away with the side valve 1476 cc engines as soon as the last Morris Oxford MO Series (our Hindustan 14) rolled out of its plant.

HM used this engine from 1949-59 (Hindustan 14 to the early Ambassadors).
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Old 14th September 2013, 15:57   #12
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Default Re: '53 Hindustan 14 - Engine advice needed

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as well the sidevalve's biggest flaw, and reason for decline was that these engines were known to overheat in the lightest of loads in tropical climates. The cooling system also didnt help, more than inadequate as my garage wallas tell me.



.
I must differ, side valve or overhead valves have nothing to do with cooling. I still use side valve engines daily in traffic, with absolutely no overheating problems.

Causes for overheating are several, engine design in this case , not to be blamed at all.

If your mechanic has made this statement, its a classic case of a bad carpenter blaming his tools
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Old 14th September 2013, 18:38   #13
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Default Re: '53 Hindustan 14 - Engine advice needed

Having used an Amby Mark III fitted with an Ac, I can say that it was horrible, good to go to office and back, very short distance. If the trip was any longer, the car would heat up. And hot air entered the passenger cabin from below the dash.

I would keep the Morris going with the diesel engine and aircon. Maybe even fit power brakes in a reversible manner. You may be used to the relatively poor brakes, but others not and you may have an accident if/when others drive your car. But I would buy that original side-valve engine for sure. Then store it properly so that it will not deteriorate. And keep on buying spares. One day that Morris should be reverted to original condition, without the Ac.

If your makes too much sound, maybe you can buy sound deadening sheets like Wuerth used to supply. Don't know if they still do. For Ambys many used to insulate the cabin from the engine compartment by a double fire wall, and then add sheets of that grey material, I forgot its name. The air between the double fire walls acted as an insulating material.

This car is roomy, keep on using it. When it becomes old and needs to be restored, revert to original if you have another car.

When you use this as a daily driver, folks on the road do not bother about the originality of the engine. But you will get a loteyeball.

To sum up, keep the car going, buy that engine, maybe fit power brakes.

Keep on enjoying your car, and cheers, harit
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Old 14th September 2013, 19:57   #14
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Default Re: '53 Hindustan 14 - Engine advice needed

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Originally Posted by anjan_c2007 View Post
True the side valve plus AC is an unthinkable option.But otherwise, the side valve is quite a tough taskmaster. It does its duty very well and very reliably, even on long distance drives. I have never faced any problems, other than the fact that it is underpowered.

The Morris Oxford Series II (our Landmaster) came with a heater in its highest (premium) version. These were sold as the Cowley (cheapest variant) with rexine covered coir seats, less chrome, no bumper guards and so on. The second version was our Landmaster like. And the highest version had a heater not AC. The difference on its exterior was that it had a cowl on the bonnet and could be made out.

All Oxford Series II's indeed, were powered by the BMC 1489 cc OHV engine. Morris had done away with the side valve 1476 cc engines as soon as the last Morris Oxford MO Series (our Hindustan 14) rolled out of its plant.

HM used this engine from 1949-59 (Hindustan 14 to the early Ambassadors).
Thanks for the clarification on the interior hvac.
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Old 14th September 2013, 20:21   #15
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Default Re: '53 Hindustan 14 - Engine advice needed

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I must differ, side valve or overhead valves have nothing to do with cooling. I still use side valve engines daily in traffic, with absolutely no overheating problems.

Causes for overheating are several, engine design in this case , not to be blamed at all.

If your mechanic has made this statement, its a classic case of a bad carpenter blaming his tools
Just to clarify I was referring to solely the side valve, not the OHVs. The cooling system for this particular vehicle, is inadequate. It's not merely a couple mechanics blaming tools, here. See if you inspect the design of an sidevalve the design follows the idiom KISS. Which is great, if you need a light-duty engine, that can be reused in many models to keep margins up, R&D budgets down, and customers happy with repair bills. However all this changes when you introduce the climate in India. The once purpose built engine is now at a huge environmental disadvantage.

The sidevalve engine is tasked with pushing a pretty hefty vehicle in temperatures that are far greater than any consisent ambient temperature UK has. The engine block is designed to take intake and exhaust gases throughout the block in a very winding route. Which again shouldn't matter if the cooling system is sufficient, but it simply isn't up to snuff in Indian roads(the designs of the cooling system didn't change when the vehicle was produced in India). The exhaust gases linger on the block and simply raise the core temps much higher than they should be. Initially not a problem, as any new engine can take some torture, but slowly the blocks develop cracks and one by one you have issues.

This condition is not only present in the bmc straights, you'll see this pattern arise in other brands during the period. Everyone got the writing on the wall that, side valves were not ideal in warm tropical climates.

My point in brief is that the sidevalve engine, by design will tend to run hot, more so than its ohv successor. When Hindustan brought out the land, they never really properly beefed up the cooling system to account for the extra temperature it's engine, which by nature runs hot would encounter.
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