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Old 6th November 2014, 19:30   #136
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Default Re: 1966 Standard Herald Mark II - Restoration

Hey, I saw this car in Kammanahalli , Bangalore this evening! It was such a beauty I couldn't stop staring at it and I instantly went on teambhp to see if it was mentioned on here and lo and behold i found this thread . That engine sound is amazing.
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Old 6th November 2014, 22:45   #137
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Default Re: 1966 Standard Herald Mark II - Restoration

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Originally Posted by AngelDustnBones View Post
Hey, I saw this car in Kammanahalli , Bangalore this evening!
Karl,
looking forward to meeting you when you're in Hyderabad!
Do keep us posted!
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Old 9th November 2014, 23:59   #138
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Default Re: 1966 Standard Herald Mark II - Restoration

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Karl,
looking forward to meeting you when you're in Hyderabad!
Do keep us posted!
Finally got to see both, car and Karl in Hyderabad today! Just a little while before they left for Sholapur!

There was incidentally, a display too at Falaknuma Palace (where the cars are parked and the guests put up) yesterday but wasn't able to make it!

Turned out really well I must say.

1966 Standard Herald Mark II - Restoration-10407923_10152635336667670_1465819708865311069_n.jpg

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1966 Standard Herald Mark II - Restoration-10394808_10152635332507670_7116759886963209535_n.jpg

1966 Standard Herald Mark II - Restoration-10417734_10152635334157670_7796789489531307693_n.jpg

1966 Standard Herald Mark II - Restoration-1502493_10152635319537670_5269867660710459310_n.jpg

1966 Standard Herald Mark II - Restoration-10483916_10152635320657670_5836168685082488166_n.jpg
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Old 13th November 2014, 15:29   #139
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Default Re: 1966 Standard Herald Mark II - Restoration

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Originally Posted by AngelDustnBones View Post
Hey, I saw this car in Kammanahalli , Bangalore this evening! It was such a beauty I couldn't stop staring at it and I instantly went on teambhp to see if it was mentioned on here and lo and behold i found this thread . That engine sound is amazing.
I think this was at the washing centre. I wanted to try out the large automated washer but since the door glasses don't seal 100% (pillarless) it probably was wise that I opted for a conventional pressure wash.

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Wanted the car to look a bit presentable since that evening we were invited to the Century Club, for which I was late after getting lost in Bangalore traffic.

Will share my experiences and some pics over the weekend, and ask the gurus some age old questions on the Herald's perennial axle problem - of which I am now a veteran
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Old 16th November 2014, 12:46   #140
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Default Re: 1966 Standard Herald Mark II - Restoration

Karl, only if you are comfortable with this: What was the total damage to get the car in this awesome shape. Even a ballpark figure could be useful for all of us.Thanks.
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Old 17th November 2014, 10:36   #141
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Default Re: 1966 Standard Herald Mark II - Restoration

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Karl, only if you are comfortable with this: What was the total damage to get the car in this awesome shape. Even a ballpark figure could be useful for all of us.Thanks.
To be honest I still haven't done the math, its been split up over months.

Now I have a question to the experts on the Herald's famous axle problems, of which I am now long suffering. I broke an axle in Hubli, which I dismissed as being a one off problem since it had been welded in the past. Replaced it in Bangalore (thanks again to KPS and bulletboy for all the help). Broke again just out of Pune - and once again in Pune just 100 meters after fitting it

Obviously there is something wrong in the fitting / alignment. What should I be looking out for? Bulldogji correctly pointed out that the negative camber will result in a broken axle. Since I couldn't attend to it in time I decided to drive on cautiously, and almost reached Pune before it snapped again.

The springs at the rear have also sat down - possibly a cause? Please pardon my amateur questions, but I am just that! Can someone also suggest any further reading on the subject? Triumph forums perhaps? I do have the workshop manuals giving all the specs.
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Old 17th November 2014, 13:26   #142
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Default Re: 1966 Standard Herald Mark II - Restoration

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Originally Posted by karlosdeville View Post
To be honest I still haven't done the math, its been split up over months.

Now I have a question to the experts on the Herald's famous axle problems, of which I am now long suffering. I broke an axle in Hubli, which I dismissed as being a one off problem since it had been welded in the past. Replaced it in Bangalore (thanks again to KPS and bulletboy for all the help). Broke again just out of Pune - and once again in Pune just 100 meters after fitting it

Obviously there is something wrong in the fitting / alignment. What should I be looking out for? Bulldogji correctly pointed out that the negative camber will result in a broken axle. Since I couldn't attend to it in time I decided to drive on cautiously, and almost reached Pune before it snapped again.

The springs at the rear have also sat down - possibly a cause? Please pardon my amateur questions, but I am just that! Can someone also suggest any further reading on the subject? Triumph forums perhaps? I do have the workshop manuals giving all the specs.
If you have a sagging rear suspension, it could be a probable cause. Based on the pictures you have posted, the "negative" camber doesn't seem too obvious but perhaps you should have the transverse leaf spring strengthened and re-cambered.

Then static camber should be re-checked and adjusted if needed.
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Old 17th November 2014, 13:29   #143
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Default Re: 1966 Standard Herald Mark II - Restoration

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Originally Posted by karlosdeville View Post
To be honest I still haven't done the math, its been split up over months.

Now I have a question to the experts on the Herald's famous axle problems, of which I am now long suffering. I broke an axle in Hubli, which I dismissed as being a one off problem since it had been welded in the past. Replaced it in Bangalore (thanks again to KPS and bulletboy for all the help). Broke again just out of Pune - and once again in Pune just 100 meters after fitting it

Obviously there is something wrong in the fitting / alignment. What should I be looking out for? Bulldogji correctly pointed out that the negative camber will result in a broken axle. Since I couldn't attend to it in time I decided to drive on cautiously, and almost reached Pune before it snapped again.

The springs at the rear have also sat down - possibly a cause? Please pardon my amateur questions, but I am just that! Can someone also suggest any further reading on the subject? Triumph forums perhaps? I do have the workshop manuals giving all the specs.
Karl,

Sorry to hear about your axle issues. When we had our car from 1968 to 1982 - we never had a broken axle issue only once we had the issue of the broken axle flange bolts, and hence I can't comment with any authenticity on this.

One aspect my dad was very concious was not to load the car heavily. He never allowed more than 4 adults in it and always ensured we packed lightly for any trip - maximum of 50-70 kg (guessing by my packing levels today).
May be that helped.

From the pictures of your car - the rear is really low and the wheels are near vertical. Even with a load of about 70 kg in the boot this, should not be the case. The upper side of the tyre should be slightly outward of the lower side of the tyre - experts can give a better explanation of this. (Compare the wheel in the picture of the car near a gate in Pune - pre trip/the one from the Mumbai Sunday drive, wher the car is near a fence and the one in the lawns during the trip, you will understand what I am trying to say)

My guess is the Cambering of the spring and the tinsel strength of the spring needs to be checked to correct this.

Best Regards & Drive Safe

Ram

Last edited by r_nairtvm : 17th November 2014 at 13:33.
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Old 17th November 2014, 13:58   #144
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Default Re: 1966 Standard Herald Mark II - Restoration

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Originally Posted by bikertillidie View Post
If you have a sagging rear suspension, it could be a probable cause. Based on the pictures you have posted, the "negative" camber doesn't seem too obvious but perhaps you should have the transverse leaf spring strengthened and re-cambered. Then static camber should be re-checked and adjusted if needed.
Dear Anirban - the rear spring is mounted transversely. Therefore, the upper end of the rear suspension uprights is held in the spring eyes. The longitudinal location of the lower end is through radius arms attached to the frame. However, the transverse location of the lower end is through the full jounce and full rebound dimensions of the rear shock absorbers, as also the exact length of the axles from the center of the car. The axle shafts have not broken in torsion, they have broken due to bending moment. I am suspecting variance in the jounce and rebound dimensions of the rear shock absorbers, as compared to the design. However, this comment is to be taken with a rider because the same shock absorbers ran without any problem on very bad roads between Hyderabad and Solapur. The wheel is held by a combination of needle bearing and ball bearing (?). I suspect this to be bad also as there was a "tack-tack" noise reported. Excessive wheel bearing clearance will give bad location to the hub, it will also give excessive axial movement to the hub which will cause bending moment.

The only way to arrive at the root cause is by attending to the car with the workshop manual, step by step, because the basic design is proper, otherwise all cars would not have worked. This needs time, patience and clarity to do. I would love to do it for learning. In the end, it will turn out to be something so simple, but it will be worth it to analyse.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

Last edited by DHABHAR.BEHRAM : 17th November 2014 at 13:59.
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Old 17th November 2014, 15:42   #145
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Default Re: 1966 Standard Herald Mark II - Restoration

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Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Dear Anirban - the rear spring is mounted transversely. Therefore, the upper end of the rear suspension uprights is held in the spring eyes. The longitudinal location of the lower end is through radius arms attached to the frame. However, the transverse location of the lower end is through the full jounce and full rebound dimensions of the rear shock absorbers, as also the exact length of the axles from the center of the car. The axle shafts have not broken in torsion, they have broken due to bending moment. I am suspecting variance in the jounce and rebound dimensions of the rear shock absorbers, as compared to the design. However, this comment is to be taken with a rider because the same shock absorbers ran without any problem on very bad roads between Hyderabad and Solapur. The wheel is held by a combination of needle bearing and ball bearing (?). I suspect this to be bad also as there was a "tack-tack" noise reported. Excessive wheel bearing clearance will give bad location to the hub, it will also give excessive axial movement to the hub which will cause bending moment.

The only way to arrive at the root cause is by attending to the car with the workshop manual, step by step, because the basic design is proper, otherwise all cars would not have worked. This needs time, patience and clarity to do. I would love to do it for learning. In the end, it will turn out to be something so simple, but it will be worth it to analyse.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
Agreed sir.

A step by step elimination process is the only way to go.

Had suggested re-arching/re-cambering the transversely mounted rear springs as an option since Karl mentioned a sagging rear suspension.

This would probably help address any awkward angles the UJ crosses are operating under, if at all.
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Old 17th November 2014, 18:40   #146
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Default Re: 1966 Standard Herald Mark II - Restoration

Hi Karl,

At what point in the axle did the breakage occur?
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Old 18th November 2014, 11:33   #147
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Default Re: 1966 Standard Herald Mark II - Restoration

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Originally Posted by karlosdeville View Post
rong in the fitting / alignment. What should I be looking out for? Bulldogji correctly pointed out that the negative camber will result in a broken axle. Since I couldn't attend to it in time I decided to drive on cautiously, and almost reached Pune before it snapped again.

The springs at the rear have also sat down - possibly a cause? Please pardon my amateur questions, but I am just that! Can someone also suggest any further reading on the subject? Triumph forums perhaps? I do have the workshop manuals giving all the specs.
Karl,

Perhaps you've already gone through the post on this link, but in case you haven't, here it is.

http://herald-tips-tricks.wikidot.co...and-tuck-under

Interesting to note that problems were solved by fitting a stiffer anti roll bar and also Triumph reduced the number of leaf springs on 'works' cars so that the curvature would be less allowing for less body roll putting and less forces on the axles.
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Old 18th November 2014, 12:34   #148
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Default Re: 1966 Standard Herald Mark II - Restoration

Karl,

Maybe this article will help you with the noise that was mentioned you faced. Since you went through 2 or 3 drive shaft replacements, perhaps it's the UJ's that are giving the trouble.

http://www.rarebits4classics.co.uk/H...eplacement.htm


From the web:

"Non-Rotoflex Suspension Only - Herald, Vitesse 6 and Mk I, Spitfire, GT6 I and III (late)

Does the car knock or rattle when slowing down?

Yes - Not the differential but Universal Joints - See Note 1 below.

No - Go to next question.

Is there continuous bearing noise. No change during acceleration or slowing down?

Yes - Wheel bearings - Will be louder on one side - See Note 2 below.

No - Go to next question.

Is there a continuous whining noise, loudest under acceleration?

Yes - Differential - See Note 3 below.

No - Call us for advice!

Note 1

A rythmic knocking when slowing down is caused by a Universal Joint (UJ) problem, either due to:- worn UJs, worn yoke or flange or end float in UJ. Wear in the UJs is cured by replacement, but read on...

Wear in the yoke or flange is evident from the circlip rubbing against the UJ and causing a shiny ring, and the only permanent cure is replacing the flange or halfshaft and yoke assembly.

If all the above has been done and still there is this tapping noise, end float in the UJs is the answer and this is cured by fitting oversized circlips to give preload (tightness) in both planes.

Note 2

When the needle roller starts to wear it eats it's way into the shaft causing a graunching grinding noise of munched metal from one side of the rear of the car. Often the noise is worse with light cornering. This is an expensive noise as it invariably means the halfshaft is scrap and must be replaced. Putting the job off until the noise is excruciatingly loud can result in damage to the bearing housing. To do any work on the shaft will require removal of the hub - a job which must be done with the proper equipment to avoid scrapping the hub. A three legged puller will rarely do the job - in our experience, the original Churchill designed tool is the only one to have a 100% record.

Note 3

The differential gets blamed on all too many occasions when experience has shown that in general, differentials do not cause knocking, vibration, or rattling. Whining is usually a sign that the hardening on the crown wheel has worn through and the noise will be loudest on acceleration either disappearing entirely or becoming very low on overrun/deceleration. The pinion bearings can be a problem, but the noise is from the centre of the car (not on one side) and is very short term, i.e. the bearing collapses, the oil leaks out and the differential seizes."

Last edited by mbz180 : 18th November 2014 at 12:52. Reason: Couldn't include it in the previous post since the time for editing had elapsed.
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Old 18th November 2014, 14:44   #149
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Default Re: 1966 Standard Herald Mark II - Restoration

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Originally Posted by karlosdeville View Post
(Obviously there is something wrong in the fitting / alignment. What should I be looking out for? Bulldogji correctly pointed out that the negative camber will result in a broken axle.)
Actually Karl, I had said that you must have a negative camber What you had when I saw the car , was a positive camber which according to me would result in a broken axle. BUT the gurus on the drive thought otherwise

Last edited by karlosdeville : 18th November 2014 at 15:49. Reason: Fixing quote
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Old 18th November 2014, 15:54   #150
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Default Re: 1966 Standard Herald Mark II - Restoration

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Actually Karl, I had said that you must have a negative camber What you had when I saw the car , was a positive camber which according to me would result in a broken axle. BUT the gurus on the drive thought otherwise
Now I am more confused - please humour me, I have to learn somewhere.

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The top of my rear wheels were leaning into the wheelwell, correct? And that is negative camber?

Ideally for Heralds I believe the top of the wheels should be leaning out of the wheelwell - i.e. positive camber?
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