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Old 24th September 2015, 07:26   #76
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Usually coolants are not required for a climate like central or south India, cause they are all glycol based which is useful in bringing down the freezing point of water. But a SCA (Suppliment Coolant Additive) would work wonders, SCA act as a lubricant for the seals in pumps and also have anti corrosive properties. If we use deminelized water that's good as well for cars. A lower temperature or owercooling is definitely an issue with an oversized radiator and there fore we have temperature regulators and a bypass arrangement. Do Standards had a temperature regulator, fiat had premiers didn't till the S1.

On white wall paint, we can cut a template from the computerized stencil plotters and then can use the white wall rubber paint. This might help a bit.
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Old 24th September 2015, 09:34   #77
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Default Re: 1974 Standard Gazel - Restoration

May be a noob question, but I ask anyway: Increasing cores will increase the volume of water, engine takes longer to reach optimum working temperature - cant a pump with a higher LPM capacity overcome this? May be even using a smaller dia pulley can help?

A few calculations can tell us what the pulley dia should be I think. The alternator bracket may be used to take up the slack.

However, as Karl has pointed out, if the car is not driven around in extreme heat, or not driven close to redline for prolonged periods, is there any need to make changes to the cooling system?
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Old 24th September 2015, 10:20   #78
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Originally Posted by thebulletboy View Post
Can a cooling system bring down the temperature of an engine to such a large extent that combustion would be affected? Text book value for optimal difference in temperature between top and bottom hose is around 30 degrees.
Dear Bulletboy - hello to you. First of all, congratulations on doing a very good job on Karl's Gazel. The answers to your two statements are as follows:

1. Yes. Overcooling causes excessive presence of amino-acids in the cylinders, which attack the block and head walls, leading to wear in the long run. Overcooling also increases HC emission. I have actually witnessed the changes to HC when testing the vehicle under IDC (Indian Driving Cycle) on the chassis dynamometer, where the maximum speed was 42kmph and the total distance covered was 3.96kms, the test conducted on a cold start soak of more than 6 hours but less than 30 hours at 25 degrees centigrade and 45% humidity in the soak room.
2. The correct Design Impirical to aim for is 7 to 8 degrees. The TD (temperature difference between the engine outlet coolant and ambient) is 50 degrees, cars normally do 55 degrees. However, the latest emission norms applicable in Europe call for a much higher value. India is nowhere close to this. .

Dear Gowtham - yours is not a noob question! See the Padmini S1 pulley and compare it with the normal one. I had actually reduced the effective belt pitch circle diameter, to increase the water pump mass flow. The actual value is 57 litres per minute. .

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
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Old 24th September 2015, 12:08   #79
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Hi Karl,

Great to see your WIP on both the Gazel and Fiat.

If your car is restored faithfully following the shop manual, you should not have cooling issues.Only if on usuage you find the temperature crossing 95 degrees Celsius would I intervene with corrective measures.

A hot engine is far better than one which runs below operating temperatures as specified. Please check the following in your cooling system.

1. The correct pressure cap needs to be used, check the book.

2. Hoses and fan belt must be correct in shape and tention. If you are running with a generator , ensure there is a half to three quarter inch slack whilst tightening the fan belt. If you are on an alternator, ensure that the belt is as tight as possible with no slack.

3, Your radiator is designed for the engine capacity so just ensure the cores are in good nick as also the fins. Many mechanics solder the cores where they spot leaks and that reduces the efficiency of heat exchange.

4.Modern coolants, alcohol based, are formulated to increase the boiling point of the fluid, so that the fluid remains liquid even at temperatures over 100 Celsius and does not turn into steam. This function is also the role of your pressure cap as water under pressure has a higher boiling point.

5. The cooling of your fluid and therefore your engine works on a simple pattern.

Cool liquid from the radiator is circulated throughout your engine. here heat exchange takes place with the heat being transferred from hot engine components to the liquid. The now hot liquid continues its journey back to the radiator where it moves through the core and here the heat from the liquid gets transferred to the core/ which in turn gets cooled by air being sucked onto it by the fan.The core loses this heat to the atmosphere.The liquid thus cooled again enters the engine and the cooling cycle repeats itself.

Therefore, to summarize, cool liquid enters engine, takes away the heat from the engine, continues to the radiator core where the core takes away the heat from the liquid and again the cool liquid enters the engine.

Now assume that this cooling cycle is not adequate for traffic conditions today, because the liquid has a pre determined time cycle determined by the diameter of the water pump pulley and of course the RPM of the engine. as it passes through the system.

Then the simplest way to increase the cooling is to speed up the passage of the liquid. This can be achieved by reducing the diameter of the water pump pulley, This will circulate the liquid faster, BUT, whilst this is a possible solution for stop start city driving where engine RPM is low, at high speeds the liquid will travel very fast preventing optimal heat exchange in the radiator. This will actually result in the liquid getting hotter and hotter and the car heating up even on open roads at high speed.

Confused?? My suggestion, stay with the original design, ensure the car is restored as per the shop manual, drive for a few months and then decide.

The engine oil also plays a very important role in the cooling cycle but I will not further muddle your brain with the cooling properties of this.

Last edited by Bulldogji : 24th September 2015 at 12:31.
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Old 24th September 2015, 13:51   #80
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Default Re: 1974 Standard Gazel - Restoration

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1. Yes. Overcooling causes excessive presence of amino-acids in the cylinders, which attack the block and head walls, leading to wear in the long run.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogji View Post
BUT, whilst this is a possible solution for stop start city driving where engine RPM is low, at high speeds the liquid will travel very fast preventing optimal heat exchange in the radiator. This will actually result in the liquid getting hotter and hotter and the car heating up even on open roads at high speed.
Fascinating!
I'd have never thought of this is it hadn't been pointed out! :-)
Thank you all for the comments and the Master Class. It has been most enlightening!

As suggested I will run through the checklist, and stick to the stock setup unless the need for an upgrade arises.
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Old 25th September 2015, 10:21   #81
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Default Re: 1974 Standard Gazel - Restoration

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Originally Posted by Bulldogji View Post
Modern coolants are formulated to increase the boiling point of the fluid, so that the fluid remains liquid even at temperatures over 100 Celsius and does not turn into steam.
Dear Bulldogji - your statement is correct. However, it is also important to be aware that the specific heat of coolant is less than water, so the car will operate at "+3degreesC" above what it would operate, if only water was used. HC reduces very marginally.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
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Old 1st October 2015, 06:17   #82
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Dear Bulldogji, yes modern coolants do increase boiling point. But we also use pressure caps that increase the boiling point of water as well. A 14 psig cap will increase the boiling point to 120 deg c. In cars we would rarely go above 99 deg c, there are few engines (industrial) that run on 110 and 135 deg c these require special considerations.

Also important is that water from damp air and from combustion should be kept in vapour form else acids will form. There are many engines with After coolers and if the inlet air fuel mix is cooled below the dew point, condensation occurs and that causes problems as well. Sorry for going off track.
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Old 1st October 2015, 11:33   #83
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Default Re: 1974 Standard Gazel - Restoration

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Originally Posted by manishalive View Post
Dear Bulldogji, yes modern coolants do increase boiling point. But we also use pressure caps that increase the boiling point of water as well. A 14 psig cap will increase the boiling point to 120 deg c. In cars we would rarely go above 99 deg c, there are few engines (industrial) that run on 110 and 135 deg c these require special considerations.

Also important is that water from damp air and from combustion should be kept in vapour form else acids will form. There are many engines with After coolers and if the inlet air fuel mix is cooled below the dew point, condensation occurs and that causes problems as well. Sorry for going off track.
Hi manish,

If you read my post again , you will find I did mention the role a pressure cap plays in increasing the boiling point of water

Water post combustion would appear down the exhaust system, well after the gases leave the engine, as they begin to cool down so I do not think that would be an issue in the older relatively primitive engines like the one in question.
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Old 7th October 2015, 13:58   #84
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Default Re: 1974 Standard Gazel - Restoration

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogji View Post
Hi manish,

If you read my post again , you will find I did mention the role a pressure cap plays in increasing the boiling point of water

Water post combustion would appear down the exhaust system, well after the gases leave the engine, as they begin to cool down so I do not think that would be an issue in the older relatively primitive engines like the one in question.
Yes Sirji, I read you post again. You were clear in your guidelines. I should have read comepletly before commenting.
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Old 7th October 2015, 22:01   #85
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Default Re: 1974 Standard Gazel - Restoration

How about a steering of this thread from the technical posting spree- useful though it may be- back to the WIP? In other words, updates!
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Old 22nd October 2015, 18:31   #86
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Default Re: 1974 Standard Gazel - Restoration

13th October 2015

First trials were finally conducted, and the initial response is great. Running in proceeds, slowly and steadily

15th October 2015

We are a little unsure on the stance of the car, if too high or too low at either end. Either way, its a relief to finally see the car working. I didn't expect to see this so soon Next off to complete the body work

1974 Standard Gazel - Restoration-gaz-1.jpg

1974 Standard Gazel - Restoration-gaz-2.jpg

1974 Standard Gazel - Restoration-gaz-3.jpg

1974 Standard Gazel - Restoration-gaz-4.jpg

1974 Standard Gazel - Restoration-gaz-5.jpg

1974 Standard Gazel - Restoration-gaz-8.jpg

And the more I look at these pictures the more I can't believe that I am going to repaint the car... it just looks so alluring to me in this state. I'm pretty sure I'm losing my mind!
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Old 23rd October 2015, 07:42   #87
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Default Re: 1974 Standard Gazel - Restoration

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We are a little unsure on the stance of the car, if too high or too low at either end.
Perhaps this pic of our old gazel would help?

http://www.aronline.co.uk/images/standard_gazel_01.jpg

Anyway, good to see the progress! Can't wait to see it all done all the same!
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Old 23rd October 2015, 14:38   #88
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Default Re: 1974 Standard Gazel - Restoration

Karl,

She does look a bit tall.

If you have a shop manual, check the riding height, it should be specified.

If specifications are not available and all your efforts fail, try to adjust the height so that you have a three finger clearance between the top of the tyre and the bottom edge of the fender.
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Old 13th November 2015, 11:15   #89
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Default Re: 1974 Standard Gazel - Restoration

Looking at Stanher's old Gazel pic, the ride height seems to be fine I felt, rear may be a tad high though. May be if you drive the Gazel around a bit, the car may settle down, just like the '63 Super Select.
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Old 14th January 2016, 07:22   #90
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Default Re: 1974 Standard Gazel - Restoration

This is amazing! As a lifelong fan of the Standard Gazel, I am very happy to see that a few people are interesting in salvaging them. Also, never having been to India, this thread is the nearest I have ever gotten to a Gazel, so thanks.

As for ground clearance, Quattroruote states 16cm (Tutti Automobile del Mondo, 1977).

Quote:
Originally Posted by rajeev k View Post
I remember reading somewhere that, Standard Motors was producing one Gazel per year till the launch of the Standard 2000. This was to keep their manufacturing licence valid. That was the licence raj period, you know.
I grew up reading about the cars of the world mostly in old German Automobil Katalogs, and the constant inclusion of Standard in the India section always baffled me after also having read the included production statistics. Here are Standard's automobile production numbers for 1982 and 1983:


As for the ride height, I agree with about it "settling down with wear", and perhaps the installation of glass and other bits will add some weight and lower it accordingly?

Lastly, Karlos, it is a rare thing anywhere in the world to find a classic car enthusiast with such a delicate touch, and such a delightful taste in which cars to save - I am glad you exist (along with others on this board, none named and none forgotten) and can help protect some of India's automotive patrimony. Perhaps there is a Standard 2000 out there waiting for you too?
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