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Old 23rd October 2015, 14:25   #1261
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Default Re: The FIAT 1100/Premier Padmini Technical Information thread

Did the 140 km run to BLR this week, kept it between 50-60 kmph speeds as the engine is still running-in.

I got the net and frame to install on the rear of the front seat, has anyone fixed it on a padmini seat? What I wanted to know was the place for the screws holding the frame to the seat.
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Old 23rd October 2015, 15:43   #1262
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Default Re: The FIAT 1100/Premier Padmini Technical Information thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Dear RandomUsername - as your car is very old, it will have only one mark on the crankshaft pulley. This is actual TDC, which please remember, do not be confused. When I released the drawing for marking the pulley at 10 degrees BTDC also, I had simply used S=R*theta*pi/180 to find S. In this case, S=10mm. You need not go to all the trouble, just set the distributor so that the stroboscope flashes when the TDC mark is 10mm towards the right side (exhaust manifold side) of the timing cover mark as viewed from the driver's seat.

This may be a little confusing, as we say in vehicle engineering terms, if in doubt, ask! .

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
We installed the new distributor last week. Set the point gap to around 0.016in and got a dwell angle of 61. Will try fine-tuning it later to get exactly 60 degrees.
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I took a closer look at the pulley to confirm about the timing marks. There seem to three small notches very close together. I have circled these in the picture below.
So with the timing light connected the middle notch in the pulley should line up 10mm towards the exhaust manifold from the mark on the engine block, correct?

The FIAT 1100/Premier Padmini Technical Information thread-img_0075.jpg
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Old 23rd October 2015, 23:41   #1263
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Default Re: The FIAT 1100/Premier Padmini Technical Information thread

Team,

Today I attempted something I never did before - set tappet clearance on cold engine. I could hear the periodic clatter of the valve followed by a small jerk, so I thought setting the tappet clearance will cure the car of this issue.

How I started:
The FIAT 1100/Premier Padmini Technical Information thread-wp_20151023_001.jpg

The correct feeler gauge for cold engine:
The FIAT 1100/Premier Padmini Technical Information thread-wp_20151023_08_17_26_pro.jpg

The cover comes off:
The FIAT 1100/Premier Padmini Technical Information thread-wp_20151023_08_17_40_pro.jpg

Checking with feeler gauge:
The FIAT 1100/Premier Padmini Technical Information thread-wp_20151023_08_23_08_pro.jpg

Video:


Cover cleaned:
The FIAT 1100/Premier Padmini Technical Information thread-wp_20151023_09_15_30_pro.jpg

Rustoleum Black lacquer sprayed:
The FIAT 1100/Premier Padmini Technical Information thread-wp_20151023_09_29_26_pro.jpg

Everything assembled back neatly:
The FIAT 1100/Premier Padmini Technical Information thread-wp_20151023_002.jpg

After this, I started the engine and the engine sounded like a tractor

I accelerated a little and hoped the engine would settle down a little once warm but it did not and it only meant I needed to wait for it to cool off before I try again.

I called Behram Sir for help and he advised me to check tappets 3 and 7 and it will be done again tomorrow.

2 more lessons learnt:
1. Spend more time for functionally critical tasks than for cosmetic beautification
2. Never assemble the cover until you know the job is correctly done.

Will go back to work on this tomorrow.
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Old 24th October 2015, 10:21   #1264
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Default Re: The FIAT 1100/Premier Padmini Technical Information thread

Update: I re-did the whole thing again today. This time, I made sure that valve was fully closed (rocker arm at lowest position on the push-rod side) when I set the tappet clearance. I saw that the 0.1mm feeler gauge was freely moving on some valves, so I must have done something wrong.

I took my time and just focussed on the task at hand. Was able to set the clearances better and the car runs fine:



The memory card ran out of space, the loudest sound is from distributor.

The cover was put back and as Behram Sir had told on phone, the clatter reduced a lot on warm up. I opened up the spark plug one by one, and I saw that the positive electrode had almost been eaten away on 1 of them. I replaced them with Champion L92YC which I had. I will get MICO / Bosch ones today.

The car spewed out generous amount of water and idled nicely on warming up. Feeling happy.

The floor pan under the right tail light had rusted off so I sprayed it with Rustoleum. Cleaned up the car interior.

OT: I went to JC road yesterday evening to identify my friendly neighbourhood Radiatorwallah, which I did, and also got some tools:

The FIAT 1100/Premier Padmini Technical Information thread-wp_20151023_21_11_03_pro.jpg

The FIAT 1100/Premier Padmini Technical Information thread-wp_20151023_21_12_47_pro.jpg

Behram Sir - THANKS
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Old 24th October 2015, 10:27   #1265
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Default Re: The FIAT 1100/Premier Padmini Technical Information thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomUsername View Post
1. We installed the new distributor last week. Set the point gap to around 0.016in and got a dwell angle of 61. Will try fine-tuning it later to get exactly 60 degrees. 2. There seem to three small notches very close together. So with the timing light connected the middle notch in the pulley should line up 10mm towards the exhaust manifold from the mark on the engine block, correct?
Dear Boeuff - my reply is as follows:

1. Set exactly to 60 degrees. Anything above 60 degrees reduces spark plug voltage, you need 25000 volts for a good spark. You can go a couple of degrees lower but not higher.
2. Your comment is correct if there are only 3 marks. Please confirm that your pulley does not have the fourth mark. If it has the fourth mark, then the three marks are 8, 10 and 12 degrees BTDC. You can solve the whole confusion yourself by adopting a common sense approach. Remove the spark plug of cylinder number 1 and physically see the TDC position of the piston. Simple!

Dear Gowtham - you need to check all tappets again, not just 3 and 7. 3 has a noise issue because its cam is very close to the fuel pump cam, I had proved in the laboratory environment that the bending moment on the camshaft is maximum at this location. Now I am telling you exactly how to hold the 0.1mm thick feeler gage, so read. Hold the gage in your right hand with all 4 fingers encircled below it and the thumb in line with the feeler gage. Gently "push and pull" the feeler gage endwise, not sidewise. Do it and see, you will get perfect setting. . In the first attempt, you have kept the setting very loose. You told me yesterday that you have not set the dwell angle, please do so and then again set the ignition timing to 10 degrees BTDC. When everything is OK, water will come out of the tailpipe during acceleration after a cold start. After everything is set and working properly, then fit the S1 exhaust manifold with its pipe, then - ENJOY!

Leave the Champion L92YC in the car, its OK, my LHD runs on the same plugs. And thanks for your THANK YOU, its my pleasure, at least you are listening ---! .

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

Last edited by DHABHAR.BEHRAM : 24th October 2015 at 10:33.
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Old 24th October 2015, 17:46   #1266
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Default Re: The FIAT 1100/Premier Padmini Technical Information thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post

Dear Gowtham - you need to check all tappets again, not just 3 and 7. 3 has a noise issue because its cam is very close to the fuel pump cam, I had proved in the laboratory environment that the bending moment on the camshaft is maximum at this location.
Sir I reset all the tappets. After setting all the tappets I turned the engine over 2 rounds to check the clearances again, one by one. I also ran the engine, and with my finger tried to feel the relative motion between rocker arm and valve. All of them felt the same. I remembered your explanation to Dr. Kannan sir - bicuspid and tricuspid valves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Now I am telling you exactly how to hold the 0.1mm thick feeler gage, so read. Hold the gage in your right hand with all 4 fingers encircled below it and the thumb in line with the feeler gage. Gently "push and pull" the feeler gage endwise, not sidewise. Do it and see, you will get perfect setting. . In the first attempt, you have kept the setting very loose.
Thanks sir, will keep this in mind. I will do a complete setting again sometime soon, because I liked what I did

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
You told me yesterday that you have not set the dwell angle, please do so and then again set the ignition timing to 10 degrees BTDC. When everything is OK, water will come out of the tailpipe during acceleration after a cold start. After everything is set and working properly, then fit the S1 exhaust manifold with its pipe, then - ENJOY!
Sir, I read up on the dwell angle and now I understand what it is, but I dont know how to set it, and I don't have a dwell angle meter. I will buy one if its available. I will take help of Boeuff if needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Leave the Champion L92YC in the car, its OK, my LHD runs on the same plugs. And thanks for your THANK YOU, its my pleasure, at least you are listening ---! .

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
OK sir, will leave the Champions on the car The new plugs were factory set to 0.7 mm gap (checked with feeler gauge). I did not change it, but I checked the alignment of ground electrode, all seemed to be OK. I will check the plugs again after 250 km.

I am keeping all the old plugs to be used in emergency. I will clean the plugs and store them in the car tool kit.

I have noticed that the car odo is running faster than the car . What can be the cause?

Last edited by autocrat : 24th October 2015 at 17:48.
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Old 25th October 2015, 10:10   #1267
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Default Re: The FIAT 1100/Premier Padmini Technical Information thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by autocrat View Post
1. I reset all the tappets. After setting all the tappets I turned the engine over 2 rounds to check the clearances again, one by one. I also ran the engine, and with my finger tried to feel the relative motion between rocker arm and valve. All of them felt the same. 2. I read up on the dwell angle and now I understand what it is, but I dont know how to set it, and I don't have a dwell angle meter. I will buy one if its available. 3. I will leave the Champion spark plugs on the car. The new plugs were factory set to 0.7 mm gap (checked with feeler gauge). I did not change it, but I checked the alignment of ground electrode, all seemed to be OK. I will check the plugs again after 250 km. 4. I have noticed that the car odometer is running faster than the car. What can be the cause?
Dear Gowtham - my reply is as follows:

1. Good. Leave the tappets alone, they seem to be correct now, as water is coming from the tailpipe.
2. Yes, it is necessary to buy a dwell angle meter and use it, there is no other way. Remember, after setting the dwell angle to 60 degrees, you will have to reset the ignition timing to 10 degrees BTDC again. Remember, changing the dwell angle changes the timing but changing the timing does not change the dwell angle. These are my teachers' words of 1977. By the way, I purchased my dwell angle meter from Rane Private Ltd, a shop in Mumbai's Opera House in 1977 for 800 rupees which was a large amount of money in those days, I had pataoed my father to give me the money. I still use it. .
3. Please DO NOT open the spark plugs at all. They will work properly. There is no need to check, you will unnecessarily spoil the threads. I know that the gap is 0.7mm, it is OK.
4. Go on a straight patch of road with two milestones located 1km apart. Drive exactly at indicated 30 kmph and measure the time taken to complete 1km. It should be 120s. 8% positive indication is allowed as per CMVR. Negative indication is not allowed as per CMVR. Calculate the actual speed, if it is within 8%, it is OK. Your car has fiat transmission with 4.3:1 axle ratio with 5.20*14 tires, so speedometer constant W=1.0. First calibrate on the road, then we shall see about W.

You know what? I love remote controlling your car, sitting 800 kms away from you! .

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

Last edited by DHABHAR.BEHRAM : 25th October 2015 at 10:12.
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Old 25th October 2015, 10:25   #1268
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Default Re: The FIAT 1100/Premier Padmini Technical Information thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Dear Gowtham - my reply is as follows:

2. Yes, it is necessary to buy a dwell angle meter and use it, there is no other way. Remember, after setting the dwell angle to 60 degrees, you will have to reset the ignition timing to 10 degrees BTDC again. Remember, changing the dwell angle changes the timing but changing the timing does not change the dwell angle. These are my teachers' words of 1977. By the way, I purchased my dwell angle meter from Rane Private Ltd, a shop in Mumbai's Opera House in 1977 for 800 rupees which was a large amount of money in those days, I had pataoed my father to give me the money. I still use it. .
Sir, buying this one:
http://www.ebay.in/itm/Tach-Dwell-Te...jcP-u-PD5JS1nA

I was not even born in 1977

[quote=DHABHAR.BEHRAM;3832992] 3. Please DO NOT open the spark plugs at all. They will work properly. There is no need to check, you will unnecessarily spoil the threads. I know that the gap is 0.7mm, it is OK.

OK sir. I will leave the plugs alone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
4. Go on a straight patch of road with two milestones located 1km apart. Drive exactly at indicated 30 kmph and measure the time taken to complete 1km. It should be 120s. 8% positive indication is allowed as per CMVR. Negative indication is not allowed as per CMVR. Calculate the actual speed, if it is within 8%, it is OK. Your car has fiat transmission with 4.3:1 axle ratio with 5.20*14 tires, so speedometer constant W=1.0. First calibrate on the road, then we shall see about W.
OK, I will do this test this week.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
You know what? I love remote controlling your car, sitting 800 kms away from you! .

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
The car is liking it

There is one problem I am unable to fix - the air filter box gets loose and falls off (stays within the engine bay though) no matter how much I tighten the cross screw. the rubber is okay, and I cleaned both carb seating area and the rubber to remove any lubricant deposition, but in spite of this, I come back home and pop the bonnet up and the box is out of place. I am not driving in dusty conditions but its still not good.

Addition: I got a 5 L can of HP Gear Drive EP 90 oil from HP auth. distributor for 1100. Will change the differential oil. I am thinking of ways to fill in oil without the plunger and ramp.

Last edited by autocrat : 25th October 2015 at 10:30.
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Old 25th October 2015, 11:18   #1269
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Default Re: The FIAT 1100/Premier Padmini Technical Information thread

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Originally Posted by autocrat View Post
1. There is one problem I am unable to fix, the air filter box gets loose and falls off (stays within the engine bay though) no matter how much I tighten the cross screw. the rubber is okay, and I cleaned both carb seating area and the rubber to remove any lubricant deposition, but in spite of this, I come back home and pop the bonnet up and the box is out of place. I am not driving in dusty conditions but its still not good. 2. I got a 5liter can of HP Gear Drive EP90 oil. Will change the differential oil. I am thinking of ways to fill in oil without the plunger and ramp.
Dear Gowtham - my reply is as follows:

1. Let me start by saying "HAHAHA" in capital letters. Read on and laugh! . In 1989, there was a sudden rush in the company to "improve the quality of PP Car" (Padmini was known as "PP Car" inside the plant). So various teams were formed. I was in one of them. As expected, they made me the group leader . We were given this project, titled "air cleaner falling off in PP car". When we systematically used the 7QC tools and identified the issue, we found that the process variability was so bad that we would be surprised if the air cleaner did not fall off! So we made the correct recommendations to remedy the situation, but alas, in the absence of real will to improve, nothing much happened (as expected)!

In your car, you do like this: remove the air cleaner and remove its cross screw at the bottom. Its thread size is M6*1.0. The quality of this screw is terrible, it does not give the crimping force called for in the drawing, so throw it out. It's head touches the band base at an angle, which prevents correct tightening. Buy a correct length of partially threaded M6*1.0 size TVS 8.8 grade bolt, take an M8*1.25 size nut, put the nut in the bolt, it will go in freely upto the bolt head, then use this bolt to tighten the air cleaner with a 10mm size spanner instead of a screw driver to apply the correct torque. The face of the M8 size nut increases the bearing area and provides proper crimping force. I've been doing this for years in all my cars, even before 1989. If you think I mentioned this in the "official recommendations", you must be joking!

2. Simple! To fill the oil, buy a small length of gardening hose, buy a small funnel and pour oil through it. One person will be required to hold the pipe in the filler plug hole. Fill to overflow, do not underfill.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

Last edited by DHABHAR.BEHRAM : 25th October 2015 at 11:20.
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Old 26th October 2015, 11:38   #1270
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Default Re: The FIAT 1100/Premier Padmini Technical Information thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Dear Gowtham - my reply is as follows:
In your car, you do like this: remove the air cleaner and remove its cross screw at the bottom. Its thread size is M6*1.0. The quality of this screw is terrible, it does not give the crimping force called for in the drawing, so throw it out. It's head touches the band base at an angle, which prevents correct tightening. Buy a correct length of partially threaded M6*1.0 size TVS 8.8 grade bolt, take an M8*1.25 size nut, put the nut in the bolt, it will go in freely upto the bolt head, then use this bolt to tighten the air cleaner with a 10mm size spanner instead of a screw driver to apply the correct torque. The face of the M8 size nut increases the bearing area and provides proper crimping force. I've been doing this for years in all my cars, even before 1989. If you think I mentioned this in the "official recommendations", you must be joking!
Sir, interesting! so the air cleaner falling off is not in my car alone

Are oil bath cleaners more effective than paper filters? What oil is used in them?
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Old 26th October 2015, 15:43   #1271
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Default Re: The FIAT 1100/Premier Padmini Technical Information thread

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Sir, interesting! so the air cleaner falling off is not in my car alone

Are oil bath cleaners more effective than paper filters? What oil is used in them?
Oil bath is a cost effective way of filtering in heavy dusty conditions. Paper filters are just about good.

Also on the Valve lash, I feel that the service manual do not provide the detailed guideline of adjusting the valves. We should follow the valve sequence for the engine to adjust the valves. but since it's just 4 cylinders, I feel it is easy for guys to comprehend.

Last edited by manishalive : 26th October 2015 at 15:50.
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Old 26th October 2015, 15:52   #1272
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Oil bath is a cost effective way of filtering in heavy dusty conditions. Paper filters are just about good.
Thanks Manish! I was contemplating on putting an oil bath air cleaner, but dealing with dirty oil is not easy, as safe disposal is not easy.

OT: If we do oil change for cars at home, what options do we have for safe disposal of Engine and transmission oils?
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Old 26th October 2015, 17:09   #1273
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Are oil bath cleaners more effective than paper filters? What oil is used in them?
Dear Gowtham - filtration efficiency of paper element air cleaner is much more superior to the oil bath air cleaner, this is a no-brainer! The problem is availability of the paper cartridge. Purolator and Elofic used to supply in production, both supplies have dried up. Therefore, it is more practical to use the oil bath air cleaner. It is supposed to be filled with engine oil upto the arrow mark and it is not supposed to be overfilled. People who do not know have become miserable because of overfilling.

Dear Manish - I agree with your statement "the service manual does not provide the detailed guideline of adjusting the valves. We should follow the valve sequence for the engine to adjust the valves, but since it's just a 4 cylinder engine, I feel it is easy for guys to comprehend" obviously the crank is at 180 degrees, so the cam is at 90 degrees, so use either the 1,2,3,5 rule or go opposite, open 1 to adjust 8, open 2 to adjust 7 and so on.

Anyways, as the final setting, I just do it with the engine idling! .

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
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Old 26th October 2015, 20:22   #1274
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Default Re: The FIAT 1100/Premier Padmini Technical Information thread

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Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
The problem is availability of the paper cartridge.

I feel it is easy for guys to comprehend" obviously the crank is at 180 degrees, so the cam is at 90 degrees, so use either the 1,2,3,5 rule or go opposite, open 1 to adjust 8, open 2 to adjust 7 and so on.

Anyways, as the final setting, I just do it with the engine idling! .

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
On the air filter will this fit and do the job, I think yes K&N is very good and reusable to, but then their cotton filters come soaked in oil already-

http://www.knfilters.com/air_filter/fiat_1100.aspx


Fiat 1100 66 L4 CARB - All
E-2550

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And on the tappet setting yes many would figure out and I think the manual is for those who know what they are doing.

Yes many senior guys do valve lash while idling of engine, but then they also can tell you by the sound of engine whats probably wrong .
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Old 28th October 2015, 09:16   #1275
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Default Re: The FIAT 1100/Premier Padmini Technical Information thread

Dwell Angle meter on the way

I have done some reading on how to use the meter. I am still not sure how to adjust the point gap. Should I remove the distributor from the car? If the rotor position changes when the distributor is removed, it will change the timing, so how to make sure the timing is not affected?

Behram Sir please help!

Warm Regards,
Goutham

Last edited by autocrat : 28th October 2015 at 09:18.
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