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Old 18th March 2011, 18:43   #196
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Default Re: 1967 VW Fastback - Restored

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Originally Posted by manishalive View Post
Oh that is an information to me, all the VW's up in north will have seized engines if they run in summer, just kidding .
Being a technical guy, you are not getting what i am saying manish.

Just to improve your knowledge about VW Engines.

Any Aircooled VW has to have a proper running-in after the engine overhaul.

Till the first 1000 + odd kms Aircooled VW engines tend to run hot, 33 degrees outside temperature is like adding petrol to burning fire.

Take for instance any modern day cars too, till you complete your initial running in, the car tends to run HOT!!! They are cooled by external cooler and water.

Whereas a aircooled VW engine does not have any external source of cooling, a lot depends on external air that gets encapsulated in the air dam of the Fastback.

This car has hardly run 500 kms till date. No way it will run right till it completes a proper initial running -in.
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Old 18th March 2011, 22:07   #197
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Default Re: 1967 VW Fastback - Restored

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Originally Posted by ajay99 View Post
In August 1963 VW introduced single and dual-carbureted versions respectively ,the Volkswagen 1500N, rated at 45PS and the 1500R, 54 PS with high-compression pistons and dual carburetors for more power. R or N prefix was there on the crankcase to indicate R (high compression) or N (low compression) engine
If this is a 1600CC car would it be mean that this had dual carbs? By late 1967 fuel injection was introduced.

I some how feel the single carb is causing all the problems as there is problem in the fuel mixture to all the 4 cylinders being adequate

See this picture on the position of the carb and manifold

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/post-w...ml#post2239097 (1967 VW Fastback - Restored)

How does one ensure that the fuel mixture is even in this set up? Must be quite a task to tune. By the way is this an original carb?

Cheers
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Old 18th March 2011, 23:05   #198
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Default Re: 1967 VW Fastback - Restored

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Originally Posted by KPS View Post
If this is a 1600CC car would it be mean that this had dual carbs? By late 1967 fuel injection was introduced.

I some how feel the single carb is causing all the problems as there is problem in the fuel mixture to all the 4 cylinders being adequate

See this picture on the position of the carb and manifold

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/post-w...ml#post2239097 (1967 VW Fastback - Restored)

How does one ensure that the fuel mixture is even in this set up? Must be quite a task to tune. By the way is this an original carb?

Cheers
Sir,

Whenever i restore any VW, i make it a point to download the Particular model Brochure . Read it thoroughly and then start putting things together.

This engine never came with a dual carb. It sports a Single port , single carb.

My bus has a 1708cc engine twin port, but with single carb, its been running fantastically since the last 2 years.

My variant has the same engine, and its a single carb,

There is one more fastback lying with me, which is manufactured in the same series as this Fastback. It too has a single carb,

This Particluar model of Fastback never came with twin carb.

About this Carb, No its not original, itsa Mikuni Side Draught carb, , My Variant too has the same carb, and most of t-bhp'ians have had a drive in my car and they will be the best people to judge.

The car runs just perfectly, its only the running in issue.

This is the problem with mechanics who does not perform diagnostics in a step by step method. KPS sir, i am sorry to say, that the mechanic who's looking at the car right now has not read the engine properly and does not have sufficient knowledge about VW engines. He will surely screw it up further.



IT IS NOT MANDATORY FOR A 1600 CC ENGINES TO HAVE A TWIN CARB, NOT A RULE.....

THERE IS NO WAY YOU CAN INSTALL TWIN CARB UNITS ON A SINGLE PORT ENGINE.

I pity the car....

Last edited by PAVAN KADAM : 18th March 2011 at 23:29.
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Old 18th March 2011, 23:58   #199
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Default Re: 1967 VW Fastback - Restored

Also. This engine is NOT THE ORIGINAL ENGINE FOR THE SAID CAR.

I have already mentioned here earlier in this thread , Its a replacement engine for the variant.

It was built exactly as per the specifiations provided by TheSamba.com :: Volkswagen Classifieds, photos, shows, forums, and information based on the engine number.

And thesamba can never mislead you.

The car owner is just jumping the gun too early. And i dont feel sorry for him.

When you own a classic or a vintage car, you need to have lots of patience, love and care for the car.

Which i doubt he has. God bless

Its just getting spammed for no reason.

Moderators can we please close this thread.
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Last edited by PAVAN KADAM : 19th March 2011 at 00:00.
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Old 19th March 2011, 00:15   #200
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Default Re: 1967 VW Fastback - Restored

How does one know that the engine is overheating? Is there a temp gauge and where and how does it measure temp without coolant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PAVAN KADAM View Post
Sir, the engine is new, just overhauled, it tends to overheat till the proper running in is done. Also attribute to the HOT Bangalore conditions right now. I had already mentioned this in my previous posts. The Overheating issues will be seen during the running-in and its not a problem per-se..
First thing I can think if is jetting. Maybe if you go a little richer, it will improve the situation.

Is there a special oil for air cooled engines? Maybe an oil cooler will help.

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Originally Posted by KPS View Post
As it is in our hot climate air cooled cars easily overheat, hence you need to be spot on all areas for trouble free running.
VW Beetles were and are still in use in hot countries like Mexico and Brazil

Last edited by Mpower : 19th March 2011 at 00:17.
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Old 19th March 2011, 01:02   #201
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Default Re: 1967 VW Fastback - Restored

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Originally Posted by Mpower View Post
How does one know that the engine is overheating? Is there a temp gauge and where and how does it measure temp without coolant.

First thing I can think if is jetting. Maybe if you go a little richer, it will improve the situation.

Is there a special oil for air cooled engines? Maybe an oil cooler will help.

VW Beetles were and are still in use in hot countries like Mexico and Brazil
There are 2 ways one can know about overheating

1)Physically stand near the the engine, those HOT fumes will tell you.

2) The car becomes sluggish once its overheating.

Sir, the car is perfectly alright, its the overanxious or the over anxiety or over adventurous attitude of the car owner for jumping the GUN so early.

The VW engines has an internal oil cooler assembly which works fantastically, but for a freshly overhauled engine, it takes a tad longer for the engine to set in well.

Yes , all VW's need to run on a different engine oil.

I wanted him to use the car a bit first, finish his Running In and during the first service, wanted to change over to the specified engine oil (Its not available in India) But now since its going through a different phase, all i can see is more money going wasted and more experiments done by mechanics who does not know what a VW engine is all about.
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Old 19th March 2011, 02:56   #202
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Default Re: 1967 VW Fastback - Restored

Hopefully this post will be taken in positive light as I only intend to provide some suggestions on improvement.
Being a fellow enthusiast it is my ardent desire that any classic vehicle that has been restored, runs reliably, and lives up to the expectations of the owner.

Here (for reference of those who are interested), is the ideal airflow diagram of a type 3 engine. Pardon the cheesy graphics :-)

Name:  ideal.jpg
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Cold air enters from the air vents on the side (rear area) of the vehicle. This cold air enters the fan via a flexible rubber air intake shroud that connects the air dam in the body to the fan on the engine.
It is imperative that this air intake shroud be air tight to prevent any recirculation of hot air from the engine into the fan. If this shroud is not air tight the fan continually feeds the engine recirculated hot air, and the result is overheating.

The flexible air intake shroud is pictured clearly below :

Name:  rubbershroud.jpg
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On this vehicle, as seen below, the air intake shroud seems to be a custom made part. Unfortunately, this part does not seem to be air tight.

Name:  shroud.jpg
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Size:  71.0 KB

Imported replacement rubber air shrouds are available relatively cheap (around 2000).

Also, the missing alternator belt trim / cover, gives hot engine air a chance to reenter the fan, also contributing to the engine overheating.

Name:  recirculated.jpg
Views: 3925
Size:  105.2 KB


Granted that a newly refurbished engine will run slightly hotter than normal, but I think once these air-flow issues are fixed, the car should be more reliable.

Pankaj
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Old 19th March 2011, 08:30   #203
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Default Re: 1967 VW Fastback - Restored

Quote:
Originally Posted by PAVAN KADAM View Post

It was built exactly as per the specifiations provided by TheSamba.com :: Volkswagen Classifieds, photos, shows, forums, and information based on the engine number.

Thanks Pavan for the update so now that it is established it is one carb, we have to look at other areas. These are old aircooled cars and are bound to be inefficient in our hot climate. You will notice that these cars run easily on the highway due to better cooling. We used to own a Citroen Dyna which had a 450CC air cooled engine. Unique car but would heat up easily in start stop traffic

Quote:
Originally Posted by thebulletboy View Post
Hopefully this post will be taken in positive light as I only intend to provide some suggestions on improvement.
Being a fellow enthusiast it is my ardent desire that any classic vehicle that has been restored, runs reliably, and lives up to the expectations of the owner.

Granted that a newly refurbished engine will run slightly hotter than normal, but I think once these air-flow issues are fixed, the car should be more reliable.
Pankaj
Thanks Pankaj, this does explain much on the cooling side. I am sure these simple correction could make a big difference. Since Pavan says this is not the original engine, maybe the alternate cover was cut to ensure that the engine cover sits properly. It might be a challenge to cover it

The current person attending this car has a vast knowledge and is known to be frugal in his spending. Guess simple low cost solutions will be given.

I plan to go and see the car today for my own understanding. I have very limited knowledge in VW's hence any opportunity to learn is a must.

Cheers

KPS
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Old 19th March 2011, 09:30   #204
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Default Re: 1967 VW Fastback - Restored

Quote:
Originally Posted by thebulletboy View Post
Hopefully this post will be taken in positive light as I only intend to provide some suggestions on improvement.
Being a fellow enthusiast it is my ardent desire that any classic vehicle that has been restored, runs reliably, and lives up to the expectations of the owner.

Here (for reference of those who are interested), is the ideal airflow diagram of a type 3 engine. Pardon the cheesy graphics :-)

Attachment 519954

Cold air enters from the air vents on the side (rear area) of the vehicle. This cold air enters the fan via a flexible rubber air intake shroud that connects the air dam in the body to the fan on the engine.
It is imperative that this air intake shroud be air tight to prevent any recirculation of hot air from the engine into the fan. If this shroud is not air tight the fan continually feeds the engine recirculated hot air, and the result is overheating.

The flexible air intake shroud is pictured clearly below :

Attachment 519958

On this vehicle, as seen below, the air intake shroud seems to be a custom made part. Unfortunately, this part does not seem to be air tight.

Attachment 519956

Imported replacement rubber air shrouds are available relatively cheap (around 2000).

Also, the missing alternator belt trim / cover, gives hot engine air a chance to reenter the fan, also contributing to the engine overheating.

Attachment 519955


Granted that a newly refurbished engine will run slightly hotter than normal, but I think once these air-flow issues are fixed, the car should be more reliable.

Pankaj
That was a nice observation Pankaj. Thats the way the Variant or Fastback air intake system works, i have explained this in my earlier posts.

The Air intake shroud that i moulded myself works very efficiently, if fitted well, this similar shroud is also fitted in Dr Sham's Variant his car is perfectly running., About the alternator cover, i think that was missed, but Hot air is never sucked in from there, highly unlikely.

Al i can tell the car owner is, let the car finish its run-in and after which it will be fine. And above that , he has a BAD HABIT of revving the car real HARD and also prolonged running of the car in lower gears.

There is no real problem with the car, and i know very well. The current workshop has very little knowledge about VW Engines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KPS View Post
Thanks Pavan for the update so now that it is established it is one carb, we have to look at other areas. These are old aircooled cars and are bound to be inefficient in our hot climate. You will notice that these cars run easily on the highway due to better cooling. We used to own a Citroen Dyna which had a 450CC air cooled engine. Unique car but would heat up easily in start stop traffic


Thanks Pankaj, this does explain much on the cooling side. I am sure these simple correction could make a big difference. Since Pavan says this is not the original engine, maybe the alternate cover was cut to ensure that the engine cover sits properly. It might be a challenge to cover it

The current person attending this car has a vast knowledge and is known to be frugal in his spending. Guess simple low cost solutions will be given.

I plan to go and see the car today for my own understanding. I have very limited knowledge in VW's hence any opportunity to learn is a must.

Cheers

KPS
If the current guy who's working on the car has vast knowledge, why is that in his workshop 3 VW's standing since decades. I really dont agree with you KPS sir.

Its only extra money down the drain.

But for experimenting and back biting there are enough excuses. Let the car owner have his ways.

Last edited by Mpower : 19th March 2011 at 17:43. Reason: Gentlemen, only technical discussions please. Thread remain open for more of the same.
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Old 19th March 2011, 20:55   #205
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Default Re: 1967 VW Fastback - Restored

Quote:
Originally Posted by PAVAN KADAM View Post
The VW engines has an internal oil cooler assembly which works fantastically, but for a freshly overhauled engine, it takes a tad longer for the engine to set in well.
Thanks for the info. Just googled it and it says that there is also a thermostat for that oil cooler that is used for warming up in colder countries. Do you remove it for Indian conditions?


Quote:
Originally Posted by PAVAN KADAM View Post
1)Physically stand near the the engine, those HOT fumes will tell you.

2) The car becomes sluggish once its overheating
OK. I guess it works for VW experts
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Old 19th March 2011, 21:23   #206
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Default Re: 1967 VW Fastback - Restored

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpower View Post
Thanks for the info. Just googled it and it says that there is also a thermostat for that oil cooler that is used for warming up in colder countries. Do you remove it for Indian conditions?



OK. I guess it works for VW experts

The Variant engine and almost all the VW engines after 1964 came with heating flaps and thermostat.

But the main function of this is to heat up the engine during cold starts, This works mechanically by the process of "contraction and expansion" and is prone to failures if the flap pivots rust.

For Indian conditions, we do not need these parts, so all the VW's that i have restored so far does not sport this fitting, its useless and sometimes can screw up the engine in case of failure.

OTOH: with all these techincal details you are aquiring, looks to me you are in the process of getting hold of one Aircooled VW. All the best.
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Last edited by PAVAN KADAM : 19th March 2011 at 21:25.
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Old 20th March 2011, 21:00   #207
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Default Re: 1967 VW Fastback - Restored

Quote:
Originally Posted by PAVAN KADAM View Post
T
The Air intake shroud that i moulded myself works very efficiently, if fitted well, this similar shroud is also fitted in Dr Sham's Variant his car is perfectly running.,
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebulletboy View Post
This cold air enters the fan via a flexible rubber air intake shroud that connects the air dam in the body to the fan on the engine.
On this vehicle, as seen below, the air intake shroud seems to be a custom made part. Unfortunately, this part does not seem to be air tight.

Imported replacement rubber air shrouds are available relatively cheap (around 2000).
Pankaj
I had a look at the car last evening and shroud was seen. I think it will be better to get the rubber one as illustrated by Pankaj if it is not difficult to get. The shroud you have made Pavan would at best be a temporary fix.

Other point I note was the electronic fuel pump is direct to the carb. With old cars it is always better to route through the old fuel pump just to reduce the fuel pressure on the carb.

Coil on the engine was not a good idea as it can overheat very easily in VW. The coil is being moved.

No major work is being done other than a complete review on the cooling systems. Car should be back on the road soon.

Just thought I will update

Cheers

KPS
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Old 21st March 2011, 09:28   #208
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Default Re: 1967 VW Fastback - Restored

Sh*t man. History repeats itself, i mean the sour Wolseley chapter. Hope you get over with it.
Anyways whatever may be the end, the result of all this happening is a VW saved & restored to its glory. Though with the attitude shown by the owner, one cannot be assured if he actually dumps the car instead of understanding how to own and maintain a Classic.

Last edited by samsag12 : 21st March 2011 at 09:29.
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Old 21st March 2011, 10:01   #209
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Default Re: 1967 VW Fastback - Restored

Job well done Pavan. I have seen some garages who are known as best restorers, they are not able to finish a Padmini!

Anyways, enjoyed following this thread. Hope the Variant stays happy & healthy with Lourd.
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Old 7th April 2011, 00:58   #210
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Hi to all enthusiasts and experts on this thread
Been travelling extensively hence looking at this thread after a long time.
May be after owning over 19 cars in the last 17 years of my life right from a Low bonnet Willy's to an MR2 and a a few Safari's, Mondeo, Lancers, Zens, Lexus, etc. I probably may not know how to drive a VW, because frankly I am new to this whole process of VW restorations/driving. Any way my driving skills apart, After having waited for over 15 months and after having spent 6,14,500/- over this Car, with over 100 scratches and gashes on the newly painted car.( i think even my driver and watch man would know, one would finish the engine work and then only touch the exteriors as in painting of the car) but here the first thing done was the paint job and then the car was made to bear the harshness of the sun, rain and every other atmospheric condition. Upholstery supposedly worth 25K, which seems like my cobbler could have done a better job.
Frankly this whole process of restoration has been completely disillusioning for a new enthusiast like me, thanx to great personalities like Pavan Kadam and Ryan Oberoi.
The whole process has just been a process of lies, deception, values and figures changing within a few minutes of a single conversation.
I really think Mr. SAMSAG12 should save his opinion on my attitude.
BUT again thanx to a few good people in the world, the Car seems to have reached the safest of hands. The reason I actually am posting this is because the person working on the car right now is not only a veteran and a store house of information on cars of yester years, but is actually a true ambassador and campaigner of the restoring industry, though he probably makes a living off restorations, but he surely doesnt make it a business. I have met Mr. Sri Pati only once while showing the car and I think he is worthy of a lot of respect and people like Kadam should adore people like him and not make silly comments about cars that havent been restored by him, just coz the owners havent shown interest in the cars. Another true enthusiast, Pankaj thank you for restoring my faith in bringing back old world beauties on the road. It is an expensive passion to pursue but this is the most gratifying off them all.
I would surely love to join the likes of you and work towards getting the world to see and experience more and more of these beauties.
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