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Old 13th May 2010, 17:20   #91
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Gurus do shed some light on the benefits of this type of suspension cost, performance and functionality wise. I think this was one thing that Gazel not inherited from heralds.
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Old 14th May 2010, 00:33   #92
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Originally Posted by chanu View Post
The illustration was really good and made easy to understand this unique setup of suspension. Now with this I have a doubt. Due to the tyres being tilting towards inside when there is lesser load and jutting outside when there is load or over load then will the rear tyres not be impacted with uneven wear and tear. How is the experience of this kind of suspension.
I am glad i could help you .

See when the tyres are jutting out the whole surface of the wheel is still in contact with the surface of the road so it hardly made much of a difference since it was in contact with the road.

I am uploading some pics of a similer set up so that you understand what i am saying about the tyre wear.

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Originally Posted by Stanher View Post
Actually even when there is less or no load, the moment the car starts running, it is automatically exerting weight on the road, and t hereby the suspension, so the wheels go straight in any case. They seldom tend to jut outwards, even on excessive load, though. Unless perhaps the rear spring has gone weak.
The car has to run a substatial distance of around about 3-4 kms and then it straightens out.

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Originally Posted by samsag12 View Post
Gurus do shed some light on the benefits of this type of suspension cost, performance and functionality wise. I think this was one thing that Gazel not inherited from heralds.
Yes their are more debits than credits in this kindof a suspension that is the reason the mark 2 came with a different setup. A common practice by lots of people were to change they differential on the mark 1's and put the differential of the mark 2. If you had two nice fat people sitting at the back and you went over a bump fast the axels's would just break.

That is probably the reason why this was not used in the other models.
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Standard Herald 1967-dsc05663s.jpg  

Standard Herald 1967-dsc05669s.jpg  

Standard Herald 1967-dsc05708s.jpg  

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Old 14th May 2010, 10:07   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IndrojitSircar View Post
I am uploading some pics of a similer set up so that you understand what i am saying about the tyre wear.

Yes their are more debits than credits in this kindof a suspension that is the reason the mark 2 came with a different setup. A common practice by lots of people were to change they differential on the mark 1's and put the differential of the mark 2. If you had two nice fat people sitting at the back and you went over a bump fast the axels's would just break.
I still didnt get what you meant by saying the mk2 (assuming you mean the mk2 Herald from 1966-68) had a different set-up? I've seen mk2 and mk3 (4-door) Heralds, which all have the same set-up on the rear. Only the Gazel came up with an entirely different set-up.

Nice chassis in ypur pics. btw! Although it seems to be of a triumph Spitfire, which was based on the Herald but the chassis was extensively altered to fit the new body, as can be seen.
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Old 14th May 2010, 10:38   #94
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Cool, Cool, Cool! that was like a virtual school. thanks Indrojitsircar ji and shyam. One doubt of mine which was boggling my mind since years is now clear. The unique setup of the Herald attatracted me I will remember of years. If and If I happen to invent or create a car then this setup will be my choice.
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Old 14th May 2010, 13:39   #95
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Tilting of wheels like this is know as Camber angle. It is the angle made by the wheels of a vehicle to the vertical axis. It is used in the design of steering and suspension. If the top of the wheel is farther out than the bottom (that is, away from the axle), it is called positive camber; if the bottom of the wheel is farther out than the top, it is called negative camber.

On application of load, the wheels straighten out and thus we have the full contact patch. If we look at APE three wheeler rear we will notice the same.

The thing that these three wheelers (Bajaj and APE) have is the trailing arm type setup, is independent like the Stanadard but has coil spring and damper to do the duty and the trailing arm to hold the wheel in place.
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Old 15th May 2010, 00:24   #96
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Excatly I wanted to quote the exaple of Ape as they also behave way similar to the Herald. In that case why did the other cars of similar era did not choose this concept. What is the benifit/drawback of having this kind of suspension set up can somebody shed some light.
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Old 15th May 2010, 00:32   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chanu View Post
Excatly I wanted to quote the exaple of Ape as they also behave way similar to the Herald. In that case why did the other cars of similar era did not choose this concept. What is the benifit/drawback of having this kind of suspension set up can somebody shed some light.
Well other cars didn't have this because the design of each car differed to the other so that is the simple reason to why others didn't copy it. I have mentioned the chronic problems with such types of suspensions.
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Old 15th May 2010, 20:13   #98
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So finally we mounted the steering assembly, engine and gearbox on the chassis today. there is a VERY BAD news for me :
The engine started but two of the cylinders refused to fire!! it had actually fired earlier when we had checked. My mech was equally surprised but after a long hours of checking and trying he gave up saying "Sir, kal mei iska head kholunga to aap gaskit aur rings ka intezam kar lijiye!" (tomorrow I will open its engine head so arrange the gaskit and rings).

Otherwise everything fitted well and crisply.

Anyways, tomorrow is another day and such surprises were expected so I wasnt too disapointed now I only hope that Stanher Guru helps me with this to get the engine back roaring(properly)

here are few pics from today.
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Old 15th May 2010, 20:45   #99
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Excellent pictures. It seems the car is getting life on the assembly line. Good work. Where did you find the new rubber for the dry shafts. I personally love replacing old rubber parts, clips, and others on my car or bike. Equally I am disappointed with the news of two cylenders not firing may be it could be because something else. dont worry tomorrow is another day to try luck. all the very best of good luck my friend. I will be eagerly waiting for your news.
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Old 15th May 2010, 21:11   #100
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Originally Posted by damasthebiker View Post
The engine started but two of the cylinders refused to fire!! it had actually fired earlier when we had checked. My mech was equally surprised but after a long hours of checking and trying he gave up saying "Sir, kal mei iska head kholunga to aap gaskit aur rings ka intezam kar lijiye!" (tomorrow I will open its engine head so arrange the gaskit and rings).
Strange to know the reason for this! Did he check the spark plugs etc.? I'm no mech. whiz but am guessing the problem could be if the engine timing is not set right. Do ask them to check that.

Quote:
Anyways, tomorrow is another day and such surprises were expected so I wasnt too disapointed now I only hope that Stanher Guru helps me with this to get the engine back roaring(properly)
Say, I can help you with the original radiator top hose, having got a spare one from ebay UK! since your car is missing it.

This is how its supposed to be:

Triumph Herald 1200 & 1250 New Top Radiator Hose CH121: eBay Motors (item 350343993973 end time May-21-10 06:14:08 PDT)
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Old 15th May 2010, 23:15   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by damasthebiker View Post
So finally we mounted the steering assembly, engine and gearbox on the chassis today. there is a VERY BAD news for me :
The engine started but two of the cylinders refused to fire!! it had actually fired earlier when we had checked. My mech was equally surprised but after a long hours of checking and trying he gave up saying "Sir, kal mei iska head kholunga to aap gaskit aur rings ka intezam kar lijiye!" (tomorrow I will open its engine head so arrange the gaskit and rings).
Hi

I would suggest you do a few things before your mechanic decides to open the head. The problems could be -

PLUGS NOT FIRING - Now in this case we have various factors.

1). Bad Sparky plugs - Now ask him to remove the plugs that are not firing and check the status of it. If it is rusted then you can clean them using sand paper of a thick gauge. If there is oil then just use any old spark plug just to see if it fires and then we shall take it forward from their.

2). Faulty Cables -The Cables on those two particuler plugs need to be checked, Specially the distributer side since the distributer cap had been removed, maybe the strands are not in proper contact.

The cables if they are old tend to get cut at the joints.

3). Faulty Condenser - Now this is one of the most common problem which is faced and due to which the plug doesn't fire.

4). Contact points - Sometimes the contact points in the distributer get some deposits on them and due to that we don't have a good contact point and the plugs may not fire.

5). Cracked Distributer Cap - This is very unlikely to happen but with age the cap develops cracks and you might not have noticed it properly. Do check it in the sun light carefully tomorrow.

6). Wrong order of wiring - The cap had been open and maybe the mechanic has put the plug wire order wrong. Should be also checked properly.

7). Broken connecter / Faulty connecter - The end of the wire that is on the plug side could have broken or have got disconnected.

So i would think you should check these things and share the repot with us and after that decide to open head. It sometimes is something really small and for that i think its better to take a little more time but not to do something that is not required in a hurry. I believe you should DO IT ONCE DO IT RIGHT.


Jitna abhi jugaad lagaoge, utna baad mei pachtaoge!

Hope you didn't mind me giving you some advice.

Best of Luck

Last edited by IndrojitSircar : 15th May 2010 at 23:19.
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Old 15th May 2010, 23:32   #102
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So well detailed and exhaustive restoration man.

Wow...! and congratulations.

You sure have got some good workshop guys to do things one at a time.

Nice progress, I am liking each and every progress.

Keep it going. Lots to learn.



NOTE:


I see the valve door cover is removed, there must be little oil deposits over the tappets, but it looks too dry, and thats not good, This shows there has been no oil supply to your valves. Kindly follow the below procedures. That will surely help.

Due to stikcy valves, many a times, few cylinders wont work, OR, the Tappet gaps might not be proper.

These must be the cause of your trouble.

1) Adjust the tappets gap.

2) Open all the spark plugs,

3) Drop some amount of engine oil DROP BY DROP into the plug hole,

4) Keep cranking for few seconds.

5) Install the plugs, and plug leads,

6) Start the car and hold idle at around 1500rpm for over a minute.

This should rectify your problem.

Last edited by PAVAN KADAM : 15th May 2010 at 23:41.
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Old 16th May 2010, 18:06   #103
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thanks for all your suggestions.
@ Indrojit ji I didnt mind you giving advice as a matter of fact I am here on this forum to learn from all of you, so keep the suggestions coming.

coming back to the problem. i went to the garage first thing this morning we checked each and everything first(which has been pointed out here) but it wouldnt work so finally decided to open the head.

The problem lies in the valves - one valve each on those two cylinders were stuck hard and seem they were not working for a long time, even the carbon which get accumalated on the head surface(where the piston strokes) and the all the valves was very excessive. The plugs were fitted with "adopters"(which are commonly used for increasing the distance of the plug in case when the engine picks up oil)

Since the engine is opened now I have decided to go in for complete overhaul.

@stanher : What I need is the Aluminium Elbow on which you fit the hose pipe coming from the radiator on top.

@ chanu: I got the rubber parts from a very old shop here which still has lot of old new parts for these cars he still has a lot of Fiat and ambassodor parts - Herald parts were a bit difficult to find but i guess i was lucky.

@ Pawan : We had opened the tappet cover for doing that only but it didnt help.

Sorry guys I forgot to take the camera with me today(i was in a hurry) so shall post pictures tomorrow for sure.
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Old 16th May 2010, 19:22   #104
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An easy way to find out the problem is to remove spark plug wire's to find out which ones are not firing. Taking the plugs out, touch them to the engine block or ground, crank and see if there is spark. If not we know the culprit.

Indrojit have really given the detail to check on the ignition system.

And Pawan Bhau has pointed out another great point, which is bound to there in the rusty old unused cars. the oil has dried over the priod leaving the sludge.

Please do a compression check on the engine to gauge it's health. If it is bad then you can open up the engine to decarbonize and change the rings. you might also need to change the bearings if needed. At that point it will be good to check on the condition of valve and valve seat.
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Old 16th May 2010, 22:09   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by damasthebiker View Post
Since the engine is opened now I have decided to go in for complete overhaul.

@stanher : What I need is the Aluminium Elbow on which you fit the hose pipe coming from the radiator on top.
'will try for that too. But I would say you certainly do need the top hose as well, it is supposed to be of the same shape as the one I showed, for a specific reason- I think something to do with the expansion of water on heating during the circulation between radiator and water pump. 'Flat' hoses tend to get drawn inwards over a period of time, which is why I reckon it was given the 3 bulges in the centre. Since you're anyways overhauling the engine, might as well go for a correct hose.

'glad that you've found out the cause of your engine trouble btw!
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