Go Back   Team-BHP > BHP India > Vintage Cars & Classics in India > Post-War


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 23rd June 2010, 20:15   #31
Senior - BHPian
 
wasif's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Abu Dhabi (for now)
Posts: 2,936
Thanked: 366 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dhrishikesh View Post
Thanks for the quick reply Wasif.
Only one query, is there is a still waterproof engine & distributor along with electricals remains on this jeep ??

I ahve not seen pictures of this particular Champs engine but if it is the original Rolls Royce engine stil in it then chances are the waterproof stuff is still on it.

The other two Champs in Hyderabad all all original with all the correct waterproof fittings still on them

You can see the waterproof distributor in one of the pictures I posted of one of the Champs in Hyderabad.
wasif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th June 2010, 09:42   #32
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: BANG-A-LURE.
Posts: 1,111
Thanked: 3,463 Times
Default

[quote=wasif;1950778]The other two Champs in Hyderabad all all original with all the correct waterproof fittings still on them quote]

I second you comments.

The champ which belongs to Shadaan has the original RR engine and all the other fittings.

But i feel there is a distinctive difference between Champ and the GPA.

The GPA could cover fair distance in the water where as the Champ was meant to cross streams and small water holes which a normal defender could not.What i mean is the Champ would require the ground support to move in water.( not deep waters).

Correct me if i am wrong.

Last edited by SILVERWOOD : 24th June 2010 at 09:43. Reason: Comments
SILVERWOOD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th June 2010, 10:36   #33
BHPian
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 86
Thanked: 14 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wasif View Post
All Jeeps after 1953 were Kaiser as thats when they took over Willys. The full screen versions were the last of that bodystyle

below is an interesting link t the timelines and history of the different Jeeps.

Jeep Facts FAQs and History of Jeeps - ID Spotters Guide and Production Year Changes

The M38A1 Page
Wasif Bhai, a small correction. Kaiser bought Willys Overland in the mid 60's... I think is was around 65 -66... Thats also when the JEEP embossing replaced the willys.

There is a lot of confusion when it comes to telling a M38A1 from a CJ5 and in my opinion G503.com is the best place for any kind of information & references. I have used it extensively to help complete my MB.

rgds
saif
Attari is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th June 2010, 11:41   #34
Senior - BHPian
 
wasif's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Abu Dhabi (for now)
Posts: 2,936
Thanked: 366 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Attari View Post
Wasif Bhai, a small correction. Kaiser bought Willys Overland in the mid 60's... I think is was around 65 -66... Thats also when the JEEP embossing replaced the willys.

There is a lot of confusion when it comes to telling a M38A1 from a CJ5 and in my opinion G503.com is the best place for any kind of information & references. I have used it extensively to help complete my MB.

rgds
saif

Saif.


It is a bit complicated. The Kaiser Frazer Corp was created in 1945. In 1953, after they aquired the assets / liabilities of the Willys-Overland Corp, Kaiser Frazer Corp was renamed Kaiser Motor Corp.

The interesting part is that Kaiser Frazer Corp in 1953 changed the name of Willys-Overland Corp to Willys Motor Company after they took it over

Now Willys Motor Company, which was owned by Kaiser Corp, officialy became the Kaiser-Jeep Corporation in 1963. This was also the date they dropped the Willys name on the Jeeps altogether.The Jeeps made by them between 53 and 63 did have the Willys embossing on tehm

Kaiser-Jeep was then sold to American Motor Corp in 1970 which was then taken over by Chrysler in 1987.

The above timeline is accurate and any Jeeps from 1953 onwards till 1963 were Kaiser Jeeps still branded as Willys. From 63 onwards the Willys part of the name dissapeared and the products were just Jeeps, hense you see the Jeep embossng and no Willys

Now www.G503.com as you rightly stated is THE authority on anyting to do with Jeeps.

Please do put up some pics of your MB

Last edited by wasif : 24th June 2010 at 11:43.
wasif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th June 2010, 11:53   #35
Senior - BHPian
 
arnabchak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: MH-04
Posts: 1,319
Thanked: 1,084 Times
Default

Good find...

This is a very rare piece indeed. This seems to be the 2.8 ltr version.

I guess some restoration would do wonders to the beauty.
arnabchak is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 24th June 2010, 13:12   #36
Senior - BHPian
 
wasif's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Abu Dhabi (for now)
Posts: 2,936
Thanked: 366 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnabchak View Post
Good find...

This is a very rare piece indeed. This seems to be the 2.8 ltr version.

I guess some restoration would do wonders to the beauty.
The two Champs in Hyderabad are the Military versions which were ALL powered by the RR 2.8 engine. The Bhopal car also appears to eb teh military model.

The civilian version (WN3) was the only one that you could order either with the RR mill or the 2.6 Austin A90 engine. Only 500 of the civilian versions were biult


Check the link below for additional info.

A Brief History of the Austin Champ
wasif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th June 2010, 19:31   #37
Senior - BHPian
 
wasif's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Abu Dhabi (for now)
Posts: 2,936
Thanked: 366 Times
Default

I was in contact with Mr. John mastrangelo of the Autin Chame Regestry who is an authority on the Chap and he has supplied some startling input on these three Champs.

1. The Bhopal Champ is a civilian WN3 Champ and should have the Austin A90 power plant.

2. The ex Mukarram Jah Champ APY regestered is an original WN 1 Military model Austin Champ.

3. The greatest surprise was that he has stated that the "Champ" that now belongs to Rashid Bhai,pictues of which I had posted, is not actually a Champ but one of the 12 Wolsley Mudlarks that were produced in 48/49 which were like the prototypes of the Austin Champs.

He went on to state that out of the twelve produced they were aware of the existance of only two of them so far till I send them the pictures of this one in Hyderabad which is now the third know surviving Wolsley Mudlark today.

It is absolutely amazing to hear this considering that I was with Rashid Bhai when it was purchased and the seller was also not aware of it being a Wolsley and not an Austin. There was an issue with the regestration documents so we all assumed it was a Champ.

All I can say is now Rashid Bhai's collection has one of the rarest milirary 4x4 trucks to be found today.

I will I could convey this to him personally.
wasif is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 25th June 2010, 10:30   #38
Team-BHP Support
 
karlosdeville's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pune
Posts: 9,626
Thanked: 8,079 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wasif View Post
I was in contact with Mr. John Mastrangelo of the Autin Champ Regestry who is an authority on the Champ and he has supplied some startling input on these three Champs.

1. The Bhopal Champ is a civilian WN3 Champ and should have the Austin A90 power plant.

3. The greatest surprise was that he has stated that the "Champ" that now belongs to Rashid Bhai,pictues of which I had posted, is not actually a Champ but one of the 12 Wolsley Mudlarks that were produced in 48/49 which were like the prototypes of the Austin Champs.
This is very interesting indeed.

How does one externally differentiate the military spec cars from the civilian? And ditto for the Mudlark - what gives it away?
karlosdeville is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 25th June 2010, 11:21   #39
BHPian
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 86
Thanked: 14 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wasif View Post
Saif.


It is a bit complicated. The Kaiser Frazer Corp was created in 1945. In 1953, after they aquired the assets / liabilities of the Willys-Overland Corp, Kaiser Frazer Corp was renamed Kaiser Motor Corp.

Please do put up some pics of your MB
Wasif Bhai, thanks for the info... I wasn't aware of the same in such detail...

Almost done restoring the MB and will put up the pics soon...

I also got myself a 1958 Willys CJ3b. Its an original petrol that I bought from a govt department in Hyderabad. The cherry on the icing: its a APY registration. will start that thread sooner than later....

Quote:
Originally Posted by wasif View Post
I was in contact with Mr. John mastrangelo of the Autin Chame Regestry who is an authority on the Chap and he has supplied some startling input on these three Champs.


I will I could convey this to him personally.

Mr. Rashid must be informed about this, and who better than the person with first hand info about this . He does have a fantastic collection and i can only hope and pray that some day this is put up for display.
Attari is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th June 2010, 19:32   #40
Distinguished - BHPian
 
harit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 3,953
Thanked: 2,723 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wasif View Post
1. The Bhopal Champ is a civilian WN3 Champ and should have the Austin A90 power plant.
2. The ex Mukarram Jah Champ APY regestered is an original WN 1 Military model Austin Champ.
3. The greatest surprise was that he has stated that the "Champ" that now belongs to Rashid Bhai,pictues of which I had posted, is not actually a Champ but one of the 12 Wolsley Mudlarks that were produced in 48/49 which were like the prototypes of the Austin Champs. He went on to state that out of the twelve produced they were aware of the existance of only two of them so far till I send them the pictures of this one in Hyderabad which is now the third know surviving Wolsley Mudlark today.
Due to this thread I have also learnt something about these Austins.
I remember seeing a strange Austin resembling a Land Rover in Daman. I never differentiated that from the Austin Champs, not noticed that these are different vehicles. When this thread started, I wanted to post that I also saw an Austin Champ in Daman. When it was mentioned here that they are quite rare, I googled and came to Austin Gypsy, a different but also rarely seen vehicle. It belonged to the Central Government, lying in junk as Government cars often do, and doubt that that vehicle survives. I saw it in around 1973. It was on an island, and the bridge had collapsed near about that time, one had to cross by a ferry, and a few cars were stranded on that island.
BTW, are there any Austin Gypsies to be seen in India anywhere?

Cheers harit
harit is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 27th June 2010, 11:10   #41
Senior - BHPian
 
wasif's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Abu Dhabi (for now)
Posts: 2,936
Thanked: 366 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by karlosdeville View Post
This is very interesting indeed.

How does one externally differentiate the military spec cars from the civilian? And ditto for the Mudlark - what gives it away?
Below are some parts of the correspondence with John

Car No 1 is the Mudlark with rashed Bhai, Car no 2 is the civilian Champ in Bhopal and car no 3 is the ex Mukarram Jah Champ

The easiest way to tell if a Champ is a military or civil version is to check the dash . The civilian version has the plain dash without that junction boxs on the right which is seen on the military version. Also the windscreen frame on the civilian version doesn't fold flat

I am very surprised to hear that car No1 is actually a Mudlark and not a Champ. This car was acquired by a close family friend who has a large collection of vintage and classic cars in Hyderabad, India. It was bought without any registration papers and going by the shape we assumed it to be a Champ. The owner will be amazed to hear that it is one of 12 produced and the third know to still exist. It would be interesting to learn how this car landed up in India
LOOK OUT FOR THE 1957 FILM QUATERMASS [2ND IN SERIES], THE FIRST WAS MADE IN 1955. THE 1957 FILM HAS MUDLARKS BEING DRIVEN AROUND AN ALIEN COMPLEX IN ENGLAND TOGETHER WITH JEEPS ETC..
ALL MUDLARKS WERE STRUCK OFF CENSUS DURING THE 1950'S. HOWEVER, ONE WAS KEPT AFTER STRUCK OFF IN 50'S UNTIL SOLD OFF BY GOVERNMENT IN 1964.



I WAS OFFERED A MUDLARK [MIGHT HAVE BEEN THE ONE SOLD OFF IN 1964] AND FOUR CHAMPS BY A DEALER IN 1977 FOR THE SUM OF 200. THESE WERE ALL EX WAR DEPARTMENT AND NEVER USED SINCE RELEASE. HOWEVER, THESE WERE WITHOUT WHEELS, 200 MILES FROM HOME AND I WAS ONLY 22 YEARS OLD WITH NO TRANSPORT TO TAKE THEM HOME.
How can one distinguish between a Mudlark and a Champ, is there any manufacturers data plate to be found on it somewhere
LOOK AT BULBOUS WINGS, HEADLIGHTS, BASIC SHAPE ETC.. THE ENGINE IS THE CORRECT EARLY VERSION OF THE ROLLS-ROYCE B40 SERIES.
THIS ONE LOOKS LIKE IT WAS ONCE USED FOR WIRELESS TESTING WHEN IN SERVICE. I SAY THIS BECAUSE IT SEEMS TO HAVE A RADIO JUNCTION BOX BOLTED TO N/S INNER WING NEXT TO ENGINE.

This car No1 was part of a collection of cars that I used to look after. It was a non runner due to a minor electrical fire and I was always interested in getting it up and running but unfortunately I had to leave India in 2001 and as far as I know the car is still standing in that very spot you see in the picture ( these were taken by me). The owner also has several Willys MB’s , Ford GOPW’s and had also acquired a Willys MA too



HE HAS A VERY RARE EXAMPLE OF EARLY CHAMP HISTORY. THE VEHICLE LOOKS VERY ORIGINAL.

Regarding car No 2 I had a feeling it was a WN3 going by the dash but since I have not seen the car in person I was not sure what engine it has. It was the hunting car of the erstwhile Royal Family of the state of Bhopal in central India and is now a static display at a hotel in that city
THE WN3 WAS EXPORTED ALL OVER THE WORLD BUT FAILED TO SELL WELL DUE TO COST AND COMPETITION FROM LAND ROVER.
THE WN3 WAS ABOUT DOUBLE THE PRICE OF THE LR.
The car No 3 which you have confirmed is a Military Spec Champ was imported into India by Nawab Mir Mukarram Jah who is the grandson of the last Nizam (king) of Hyderabad State. He was an avid hunter and the car was used extensively as his hunting car. This was the first Champ I ever saw in person and the only one of these three that is a runner and almost completely original
I SAW A PICTURE OF WN1 IN INDIA WITH A HIGH RANKING INDIAN CITIZEN SITTING IN IT. IT WAS PART OF A COLLECTION OF VINTAGE CARS. THE DATE WAS MID 80'S. I CAN'T REMEMBER THE NAME OF THE MAN SITTING IN THE CHAMP. THIS COULD BE THE SAME VEHICLE?
I ONCE SAW AN OLD PATHE NEWS FROM 1958 WHICH SHOWED SEVERAL WN1 CHAMPS IN A MILITARY PARADE ON IRAQ ARMY DAY IN BAGHDAD. THEY WERE MARKED WITH ARABIC REGISTRATIONS AND THE CREWS WERE LOCALS. THERE IS NO RECORD OF EX UK WN1 HAVING BEEN HANDED OVER TO IRAQ. THERE IS A PATCHY RECORD OF SOME WN1 SENT TO IRAQ FROM AUSTIN AS NEW VEHICLES.

Last edited by wasif : 27th June 2010 at 11:17.
wasif is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 24th August 2010, 18:55   #42
GTO
Team-BHP Support
 
GTO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Bombay
Posts: 47,735
Thanked: 89,235 Times
Default

A "Clive Mencarini" dropped the following email. Have asked him to register as well:

Quote:
Hi, I just stumbled upon your excellent website (classic cars are my passion) and noticed the photo's on page 1 of the 'Austin Champ'. I ovn a champ (the military version) and this isn't what I've got! what theee pictures show is a Wolseley Mudlark! This was the prototype for the champ and just over 30 were made according to Austin Champ Owners Club - Home Page only two or three are known to survive!
Fantastic website. Regards.
GTO is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 13th October 2011, 19:23   #43
Newbie
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Leek. UK
Posts: 3
Thanked: 7 Times
Default Re: Austin Champ 'Jeep' - Nawab of Bhopal

I am writing from England about the Austin Champs shown on your wonderful Team-BHP website. The Champ outside the Noor Us Sabah Hotel is actually a WN3 'civilian' model which has the Austin A90 engine. Compared to the military (WN1) version it has wider fronts on the front wings and should have a fixed windscreen but the one here has been modified. The vehicle was not waterproofed and was 12volt.
The ex-Mukarram Jah Champ (reg APY 8382) is a military (WN1) model and this will have the Rolls Royce B40 engine, waterproofed and suppressed for radio work.
The photo of VVS590 was taken in the UK. The Champ (a WN1) had British Army reg. number 15BE96, entered service on the 24th of December 1952 and was sold off in September 1967. It now belongs to Thomas Cummings from the North East of the UK.
The Champ with the front mounted winch (CA 271 184) belongs to Davin Catlin in Cape Town South Africa. It is also a WN1, original reg. 69BE81 and new on the 12th of July 1954, sold off in November '64. Originally it would not have had the winch fitted.
I hope this information is useful. Andrew Wardle. Editor, Champ World magazine.
ChampAnd is offline   (4) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 17th October 2011, 13:17   #44
Senior - BHPian
 
fazalaliadil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 2,022
Thanked: 624 Times
Default Re: Austin Champ 'Jeep' - Nawab of Bhopal

Quote:
Originally Posted by wasif View Post
There was this family of three brothers Shafaat, Diyanat and Rafaat who are connected to one of the old nawabi families who had a few of these Jeeps and so did the Owaisi's and maybe the Shaadan people too.
Wasif,

Shujahat, Diyanath and Shafahat are the brothers, also in the same order.

Shujahat bhai has his Jeep in silver colour intact, Diyanath bhai's was sold about a year back, bought by Siasat guys but I don't remember Shafahat bhai having one.
Regards,
fazalaliadil is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 17th October 2011, 17:06   #45
Senior - BHPian
 
chanu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: APX to AP 29
Posts: 1,481
Thanked: 140 Times
Default Re: Austin Champ 'Jeep' - Nawab of Bhopal

Quote:
Originally Posted by fazalaliadil View Post
Wasif,

Shujahat, Diyanath and Shafahat are the brothers, also in the same order.

Shujahat bhai has his Jeep in silver colour intact, Diyanath bhai's was sold about a year back, bought by Siasat guys but I don't remember Shafahat bhai having one.
Regards,
Any pictures of that jeep Wasif bhai. I see our Hyderabadis (nizams and others) were equally enthusiastic about vehicles and I regret that we have and are loosing a good treasure to other states and countries. I would love to see pictures of the jeeps and cars owned by our Nawabs and their relatives. I have heard that Mr owasi has got a beautiful and all original Kaiser jeep and seems to be still with the family, Shadan group also has got good collection and I have personally seen the Austin HYB regd, I am not sure of the last alphabet but it starts with HY, Please do post any information, pictures you have regarding the jeeps and cars you mentioned. I am longing to see Mr owaisi jeep and siasat collection.
chanu is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Bhopal-Ajanta-Ellora-Mahabaleshwar-Konkan-Shirdi-Bhopal columbus Route / Travel Queries 28 6th October 2015 17:30
Restoration of a 1937 Austin Big 7 / Austin Six Lite Ravi Kapur Pre-War 7 27th August 2014 15:38
The Champ retires... End of an era...(A tribute to Michael Schumacher) ess_a Int'l Motorsport 113 28th June 2009 22:53
Tiff Needell puts his real world skills against David Baker (UK GT4 champ)!!! Shan2nu Shifting gears 5 16th September 2008 21:15


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 10:20.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks