Veteran and Edwardian cars in India (1903 Cottereau etc)

[DKG]

Originally Posted by Julian UK

If the tyres are protected from UV they last a lot longer

Wow never heard this one! You mean the UV hardens the rubber? Is this why tyres age and rubber becomes hard?

DKG spot the Packard in the background

Can't see clearly in the picture, you mean the Maroon one? Looks like a 28 (if with drum headlights) or 29 Packard. The large green car looks to be the Dhanrajgir Daimler town car

[awini]

Originally Posted by Julian UK

DKG spot the Packard in the background

I always remember at the start of these rallies one had to prevent the rally chaps from covering your radiator with the official rally number sign oblivious to the effects on the cooling system then attempting to stick their advertising stickers onto the paintwork.

wasnt this the bombay packard? i remember i had almost convinced my dad to buy it, then i heard it was already sold to delhi.
i remember the sticker boys at statesman, i used to let them stick them on the sidemount tyres on the studebaker, so they would just go away.

[iraghava]

Originally Posted by DKG

Wow never heard this one! You mean the UV hardens the rubber? Is this why tyres age and rubber becomes hard?

Yes, UV and the heat in our conditions has quite an impact on tyres and that is why it is generally advisable to replace the tyres of your machines every 5-6 years to make sure that there are no failures while plying on the roads.

And not only does it become hard it also starts to disintegrate & crack which is most often the cause of failure in old tyres.

[Julian UK]

For a set of 5 Dunlop bead edge chevrons that will cost about Rs.1.5 lakh plus shipping and duty and when you fit them you'll see they were made in India

Originally Posted by iraghava

Yes, UV and the heat in our conditions has quite an impact on tyres and that is why it is generally advisable to replace the tyres of your machines every 5-6 years to make sure that there are no failures while plying on the roads.

[Julian UK]

Here are some more photos of the 1903 Cottereau 7hp Patiala 0 with its body removed. The Lucas magneto that someone fitted is visible. It is now fitted with a replica of the original breaker and trembler coil. This car must have done a lot of miles as everything apart from the cylinder bore was completely worn out. It still retains its original steering wheel, wooden wheels and body, which are all in good shape. Anything and everything original was retained.
It has 2 gear levers, one for changing gear and one for reverse, left foot clutch pedal, which beyond a certain point also applies a transmission brake. The right foot pedal applies the rear brakes, which can also be applied with the hand brake lever. At the steering wheel there are 3 levers; one for throttle, one for advance/retard and one for the valve lifter. Also you have a hand pump to deliver oil via a two-way tap, which will feed oil to the gearbox as well. That’s 6 levers and the hand pump to be used correctly. There are more photos of this stage but that is probably enough.

[Ceylon]

Interested to know how many Veteran vehicles (pre 31st December 1918) remain in India. The following is a sketchy list I put together sometime ago and can perhaps be used as a starting point? Any additions to the list, comments, photographs etc will be most welcome

1902 Swift
1903 Humberette (Vijay Mallya)
1903 Cottereau (In Delhi)
1903 Renault (Veerendra Heggade)
1903(?) Riley Forecar
1905 Darracq (Vijay Mallya)
1905 Rover (MN4, In Delhi)
1905 Oldsmobile (ex Prem Nath motors)
1906 Rover (reported in BHP forum - in need of restoration)
1906 Mors (Pranlal Bhogilal)
1906 Minerva (Pranlal Bhogilal)
1906 Renault
1906(?) Daimler (reported in the automobile)
1908 Itala (Still in india? Patiala palace museum)
1909 Triumph Trusty (Jacob Verghese)
1910 Triumph (Nitin Dossa)
1910 New Engine (Gondal)
1910 Ford Model T (Pranlal Bhogilal)
1910 Wolseley-Siddeley (Nizam of Hyderabad)
1911 Fiat (Nizam of Hyderabad)
1911 Daimler (Pranlal Bhogilal)
1912 Rolls-Royce Silver Ghost (Vintage era body)
1912 Renault
1912 Buick
1912 Rolls-Royce Silver Ghost (Nizam of Hyderabad)
1913 Fiat (Still in India? Patiala Palace museum)
1913 Lagonda (Delhi)
1913 Rolls-Royce Silver Ghost (Mrs Wasia Ibrahim)
1913 Wolseley (Formerly dated 1908)
1913 Darracq
1913 Standard
1914 Stoewar (Delhi)
1914 John Morris fire engine
1914 Minerva (Pranlal Bhogilal)
1914 Fiat
1914 Napier (Nizam of Hyderabad)
1914 Napier (Nizam of Hyderabad)
1914 Triumph trusty
1914 Ford Model T (reported on BHP)
1915 Levis (R.D.Dangle)
1915 Wolseley
1915 Ford Model T (Dr.Ravi Prakash)
1916(?) Carden cycle car
1916 Perry
1916 Minerva (Varnasi)
1916 Swift (Vijay Mallya)
1917 Ford Model T ( S. Bose)
1918 Sunbeam (Dr. Ravi Prakash)
1918 Chevrolet (with botched radiator - MLS4883)
1918 Douglas
1918 Crossley
1918(?) Delauney Belleville 40/50

[Julian UK]

Great list Ceylon, now, a photo of each car, a few are already on this forum. There are also many other photos of early cars that were in India, but are they relevant now? I think so, they may not have survived but they deserve recognition and preservation.
.
Right now there are photos of these survivors:
1. 1903 Cottereau 7hp
2. 1903? Humberette
3. 1905 Oldsmobile
4. 1903? Riley Forecar
5. 1905 Rover 6hp
6. 1906 Daimler (if it was in UP, I have a photo of the trans axle only)
7. 1906 Rover (unrestored, Karl? has a photo)
8. 1909 Triumph Trusty (Jacob Verghese) 1910 Triumph (Nitin Dossa) These are motorcycles, the first Triumph car was in 1923.
9. 1910 New Engine (Gondal)
10. 1912 Renault (rally photos are on the forum)
11. 1912 Rolls-Royce Silver Ghost (Nizam's throne car) Chassis#2117
12. 1913/14 Wolseley (Formerly dated 1908)
13. 1913 Darracq (I have a photo of the bare chassis)
14. 1912/13ish Standard (There is a poor photo in the Standard thread. This white car was in many Delhi rallies in the late 80s-early nineties, Someone must have rally photos from these rallies.
15. 1914 Morris fire engine (Delhi railway museum)
16. 1914ish Fiat (Hyderabad)
17. 1918/19(?) Delauney Belleville 40/50 (ex-Darbhanga photos on the forum)
Can anyone help with the others? Over to Karl, DPK, Travencore and all the other sleuths here....

[karlosdeville]

Originally Posted by Julian UK

Great list Ceylon, now, a photo of each car, a few are already on this forum. There are also many other photos of early cars that were in India, but are they relevant now? I think so, they may not have survived but they deserve recognition and preservation.
.
Right now there are photos of these survivors:
1. 1903 Cottereau 7hp
2. 1903? Humberette
3. 1905 Oldsmobile
4. 1903? Riley Forecar
5. 1905 Rover 6hp
6. 1906 Daimler (if it was in UP, I have a photo of the trans axle only)
7. 1906 Rover (unrestored, Karl? has a photo)
8. 1909 Triumph Trusty (Jacob Verghese) 1910 Triumph (Nitin Dossa) These are motorcycles, the first Triumph car was in 1923.
9. 1910 New Engine (Gondal)
10. 1912 Renault (rally photos are on the forum)
11. 1912 Rolls-Royce Silver Ghost (Nizam's throne car) Chassis#2117
12. 1913/14 Wolseley (Formerly dated 1908)
13. 1913 Darracq (I have a photo of the bare chassis)
14. 1912/13ish Standard (There is a poor photo in the Standard thread. This white car was in many Delhi rallies in the late 80s-early nineties, Someone must have rally photos from these rallies.
15. 1914 Morris fire engine (Delhi railway museum)
16. 1914ish Fiat (Hyderabad)
17. 1918/19(?) Delauney Belleville 40/50 (ex-Darbhanga photos on the forum)
Can anyone help with the others? Over to Karl, DPK, Travencore and all the other sleuths here....

This list can certainly prove to be very useful, but just a note, veteran would be a wrong notation, methinks Veterans are pre 1904. So pre 1918 would include Edwardians and Victorians I suppose. Can some one give us the exact dates?

Secondly I have no photos nor have I seen the 1906/7 Rover, but it is still with a friend (erstwhile royal family) in unrestored condition.

Thirdly, along with the white Standard we should list the red car of similar vintage. That car is featured on the Standards in India thread, and is in Calcutta.

[Julian UK]

Originally Posted by karlosdeville

This list can certainly prove to be very useful, but just a note, veteran would be a wrong notation, methinks Veterans are pre 1904. So pre 1918 would include Edwardians and Victorians I suppose. Can some one give us the exact dates?

In UK its:
Veteran - Vehicles built up to and including Dec 1904
Edwardian - Vehicles built from Jan 1905 up to and including Dec 1918
Vintage - 1919 -1930
Post Vintage - 1931-1945

[karlosdeville]

Originally Posted by Julian UK

In UK its:
Veteran - Vehicles built up to and including Dec 1904
Edwardian - Vehicles built from Jan 1905 up to and including Dec 1918
Vintage - 1919 -1930
Post Vintage - 1931-1945

Thanks Julian. Is there a Victorian category as well or did I imagine her?

[Julian UK]

Originally Posted by karlosdeville

Thanks Julian. Is there a Victorian category as well or did I imagine her?

Not that I'm aware of.

Here is the picture of the early Daimler transaxle somewhere in UP, there is not much left of the car, I think there is a chassis, I will be getting another photo of whats left soon. I know the large Daimlers were chain drive and poppet valve until 1908 then they switched to bevel final drive and sleeve valves until 1912 then they used worm drive. This I think is a small hp car and maybe between 1908 and 1912.
As you can see it is in beautiful condition...

[travancore]

Originally Posted by karlosdeville

Thanks Julian. Is there a Victorian category as well or did I imagine her?

Yes there was, Karlos......but they ran on "bio-fuel" and are hence excluded! Kidding of course

[Julian UK]

Thank you Travencore.........

Here are two beautiful photographs of a 1913ish Darracq which, once restored by the late Rashid mechanic of Delhi, (engine reconditioned by Fine Auto Boring, Kotla Murbarakpur Market, New Delhi) completed several Delhi Statesman rallies in the late 90s. Someone please post better photos, the car was a open tourer and a maroon colour. It resides in a Delhi collection.

The body is in the background, (the car's body I mean.....)




Unfortunately, despite the massive evidence of camera flashes during the rallies in Delhi in the 80s and 90s at the time, there seems to be a total absence of available photographs of many cars that were present in these rallies. Can anyone help? Ask your friends and relatives? There must be rally photographs around. Those photographers used to take pictures of every car and try and sell them to you at the end of the rally each year. Some must still be around.

[vintageman]

Hello ,

Here is an addition to the pre 1918 vehicles - the fire engine which has been a regular entry at the Lucknow events , as per the fire department records it has been part of the city's fire brigade since 1911 .

Julian , there used to be a similar chain drive Daimler with Tirwa which was shipped to Bangalore some time back.

[Julian UK]

Originally Posted by vintageman

Hello ,

Here is an addition to the pre 1918 vehicles - the fire engine which has been a regular entry at the Lucknow events , as per the fire department records it has been part of the city's fire brigade since 1911 .

Julian , there used to be a similar chain drive Daimler with Tirwa which was shipped to Bangalore some time back.

Vintageman, any photographs of the Tirwa Daimler?
Surprisingly, this is the best photograph I could find of the Delhi Railway Museum's 1914 Morris Belsize fire engine (ex-Nizam of Hyderabad) from their web site despite decades of completing the Delhi rallies!!! I would have expected dozens of high resolution images all over the place. Can any one come up with a better one?

Source: The magnificent quality photographs of the Delhi Railway Museum. (hint)

Also there are the Peshawar Merryweather fire engines in need of assistance as so many vehicles do.....









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