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Old 17th August 2009, 23:59   #196
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Quote:
"The 680 K was made available with 26/120/180 hp engine
The car we speak off does not have a engine which produces 120 hp, its 100 hp this is written on the small metal plate below the dash on the board which separates the engine bay & dash board. "LEISTUNG PS 100/180"


MERCEDES DAIMLER MOTOREN GESSELLSCHAFT
NO 68617


DAIMLER BENZ AKTIENGESSELLESCHAFT
WERKUNTERDRAHEIM

MOTOR NO 68617 BEST NO MOT. 1391
WAGEN NO 35445 BEST NO WAG 1392
COM. NO. 41346 WAG-GEW NO.
HUBRAUM 6740 LEISTUNG PS 100/180

------------

further down in the quoted article the author mentions

Quote:
Overall, Mercedes-Benz built 146 units of these intriguing S sports cars with the designation 26/120/180 hp Ė as two-seater racing cars, open tourers and comfortable convertibles.
The S type which has a 6.8 lts engine has twin carbs, the ex mallick car has a single carb.
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Old 18th August 2009, 00:07   #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SA7VA5 View Post
Dear All,

I beg to differ from all of you learned souls!

The 680 K was indeed produced by benz for racing.


Incidentally, the special feature of the K models was the arrangement of three silver-colored exhaust pipes on the outside of the engine hood on the right-hand side and serving as a visual hallmark of the supercharged Mercedes-Benz models in addition to their acoustic identifier, namely the superchargerís distinctive sound.

Despite all these superlatives, the supercharged Mercedes models of the early years were merely tentative exercises for what Daimler-Benz would produce from 1927: the Mercedes-Benz S, SS, SSK and SSKL."

Matter laid to rest and MODS please dont rename the thread!

Period.

Cheers!
I would go with Harit as it seems more of a 630.

Yes the 680 was produced but this is unlikely one of those rare produced cars (only 6 were made according to my limited sphere of knowledge about this but i am open for correction but not from Wiki.

Yes this is a K as in Supercharged model but that is not under dispute at all. One can see it is supercharged.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sat View Post
The car we speak off does not have a engine which produces 120 hp, its 100 hp this is written on the small metal plate below the dash on the board which separates the engine bay & dash board. "LEISTUNG PS 100/180"


MERCEDES DAIMLER MOTOREN GESSELLSCHAFT
NO 68617


DAIMLER BENZ AKTIENGESSELLESCHAFT
WERKUNTERDRAHEIM

MOTOR NO 68617 BEST NO MOT. 1391
WAGEN NO 35445 BEST NO WAG 1392
COM. NO. 41346 WAG-GEW NO.
HUBRAUM 6740 LEISTUNG PS 100/180

------------

further down in the quoted article the author mentions



The S type which has a 6.8 lts engine has twin carbs, the ex mallick car has a single carb.
Thanks Sat. This clears it for me at least.
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Old 18th August 2009, 00:23   #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SA7VA5 View Post
Dear All,

I beg to differ from all of you learned souls!

The 680 K was indeed produced by benz for racing.

Please read all about the benz supercharged vehicles on the following thread and I am quoting an excerpt from there for you all.

eMercedesBenz Feature:¬*The Supercharged Cars Of Mercedes-Benz In The 1920s And 1930s | eMercedesBenz - The Unofficial Mercedes-Benz Weblog

"The 680 K was made available with 26/120/180 hp engine and as a racing car only with 26/145/270 hp engine. Incidentally, the special feature of the K models was the arrangement of three silver-colored exhaust pipes on the outside of the engine hood on the right-hand side and serving as a visual hallmark of the supercharged Mercedes-Benz models in addition to their acoustic identifier, namely the superchargerís distinctive sound.

Despite all these superlatives, the supercharged Mercedes models of the early years were merely tentative exercises for what Daimler-Benz would produce from 1927: the Mercedes-Benz S, SS, SSK and SSKL."

Matter laid to rest and MODS please dont rename the thread!

Period.

Cheers!
Sorry boss, it is still not a 680. Yes, there have been 680's in existance, but this is not one. The article gives no reference to this car.
At the Cartier event she was also not accepted as a 680. There were discussions, but those guys know their onions. We are
So, mods please rename the thread correctly.

Cheers harit
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Old 18th August 2009, 13:38   #199
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Hi Harit - any idea what differentiates a 630 from a 680? That will help the entire community in figuring out the reality in that case.

Happy to be of help!

Cheers!

Saurabh
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Old 18th August 2009, 21:33   #200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SA7VA5 View Post
what differentiates a 630 from a 680?
Basically its the engine displacement ie 6.3 litres vs 6.8 litres

The K in the name stands for kurz or short to denote a shortened chassis as this car evolved from the 24/100/140

The 6.8 litre Mercs were most famous in the S version that was launched sometime in 1928. This car not only featured the more powerful engine thanks to higher displacement and dual carb manifold but the engine was set back and the chassis lowered improving the car's handling dramatically

Now its highly likely that Mercedes was tweaking the 630k heading toward its final iteration in the form of the fabulous S. Its possible that with improvements to the Roots supercharger they managed to tweak the 630's engine to 180 bhp from 160. What puzzles me is that if this engine is a 6.8 litre then even the unblown bhp should rise purely on account of higher displacement. Why still at 100? Should have gone up to 120 as it later appeared as a 120/180 in the S

One possible explanation is Merc engineers were being cautious with the uprated blower and possibly lowered the compression on the engine maintaining 100 bhp unblown. I don't know this is pure guesswork. There must be some explanation as to why the bhp remained at 100 despite displacement going up.

The simplest explanation would be if someone clarified this is a 630k with a more powerful blower accounting for the 20 bhp hike

But when I chatted Ranjit at the Cartier show he mentioned the bore measured out to 680 specs.

I am personally not sure what the car is, as such I know very little about Mercs. But it would be nice to get a letter from Mercedes acknowledging the car's history and authenticity. After all if the car is as rare and significant as claimed why not have the stamp of Mercedes' approval that it is a 680k

Its possible that most of us here at TBHP are farthest from the truth. But a request to those who know for a fact this is a rare one off 680 k please do share some more data. Unfortunately the couple of books I have on Mercedes do not mention such a version and no where on the net is there even one reference to the existence of 680k's. The one reference pointed earlier still doesn't explain why this car has a 100 bhp engine

If the car was sold with the current body with a 6.8 litre engine with numbers stamped on a plate I'm sure Mercedes would have records of it. Can't someone access those and settle this issue once and for all? Perhaps Mercedes India could help

Last edited by DKG : 18th August 2009 at 21:37.
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Old 19th August 2009, 02:19   #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
Basically its the engine displacement ie 6.3 litres vs 6.8 litres

The K in the name stands for kurz or short to denote a shortened chassis as this car evolved from the 24/100/140
DKG, apologize for even starting to question your vast knowledge. Looks like you have also been checking out "The Star and The Laurel"! However, the "K" may also have been been for "Kompressor" per the authoritative book.
Page 209 also happens to mention that the "SS" was owned by the Maharajas of Bhopal & Alwar. Wonder where the Alwar car went. Did not see Berar, though I am pretty sure they had one.
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Old 19th August 2009, 09:41   #202
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Originally Posted by travancore View Post
DKG, apologize for even starting to question your vast knowledge. Looks like you have also been checking out "The Star and The Laurel"! However, the "K" may also have been been for "Kompressor" per the authoritative book.
Page 209 also happens to mention that the "SS" was owned by the Maharajas of Bhopal & Alwar. Wonder where the Alwar car went. Did not see Berar, though I am pretty sure they had one.

Knowledge as you know Prem is invariably second hand ! I am no expert to say with certainty what the K stands for but almost all reading material that came my way refered to it as Kurz. I'll pull out more book references but offhand I found the same reference on page 60 of Great Cars of the 20th Century as Kurz

One article on the net titled Blown Mercs categorically states:

They were surpassed by a car from their own ranks, the 24/100/140 hp Mercedes-Benz K built from 1926; its two predecessors – renamed Mercedes-Benz 400 and 630 – remained in the range for the time being after the merger of DMG and Benz & Cie. in 1926. In contrast to the supercharged eight-cylinder Mercedes-Benz cars launched at a later stage, the “K” did not stand for ‘supercharger’ (Kompressor in German) but stood for ‘short’ (kurz in German) to refer to the car’s 35 centimetre shorter wheelbase.

ref article in autospeed.com

That said Beverly Rae Kimes is a highly regarded historian and she may have found more information supporting her assertion that its actually Kompressor. I admire her work on Packards and see no reason to doubt her statement on what the K stands for.

Come to think of it globally so many people seem to have different opinions about so many things I guess its perfectly natural that here at TBHP people are debating the authenticity of this particular Mercedes. If it weren't for the fact that unblown this Merc puts out 100 bhp we could have easily accepted this is one of the very few 6.8 litre K's made before the fabulous S emerged

When I last ran into the great grandson of Prince Hamidullah I asked if he could help me trace the whereabouts of the Merc and the Bentley and right there he called Pataudi to see if he remembered and sadly we drew a blank. I doubt if anyone in the family even knows such amazing cars existed in their ancestor's home. I am inclined to believe these two outstanding cars may not have survived. It would be a miracle if they reappear after disappearing from the scene for so long.

Sad, but I guess to most of them it was just a passing fancy which they tired of easily and either gave the cars away or their estate sold them off at scrap value

How about some wishful thinking, a retired English major from the British era dies at 95 and both these beauties are found in some remote village in England in a barn completely camouflaged by heavy overgrowth over the past 60 years. Cars found all intact !!

Last edited by DKG : 19th August 2009 at 09:50.
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Old 19th August 2009, 12:51   #203
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The answer lies in the small metal plate

HUBRAUM 6740 which means cylinder capacity in german, so it has a 6740 cc engine. The 6.8 liter engine of the S type had a bore of 98mm x 150mm which is 6786 cc... as DKG says this could be a bored out engine of the model K which was originally 94mm x 150mm.

I clearly recollect reading a letter which was addressed to the owner (from whom rm bought the car) from mercedes benz, Germany that the car was a Type K, open tourer, built in 1928. They also sent a b&w negative roll of the manual in german & mentioned that lot of records had been destroyed during the war. The mercedes benz club of England sent a copy of the manual in english.

Quote:
What puzzles me is that if this engine is a 6.8 litre then even the unblown bhp should rise purely on account of higher displacement. Why still at 100? Should have gone up to 120 as it later appeared as a 120/180 in the S
dkg, Is it possible that the unblown bhp was 100 because of the single carburettor, the S had twin carbs.

------------------

This car was in Bombay for several years (after which it was stored in Rajkot) I have a letter from simplex garage, garage no 2&3, bellasis road, bombay - 8, dated 28-6-65

"To H.H. Shahpura
Rajasthan

Re: Mercedes Car No UPF 105, motor no --- , wagen no----, com no ----

Dear Sir,

With reference to your letter addressed to Mr UB anaji Rao regarding your mercedes car as above we have to state that we have started the engine of the car but runs unevenly. This must be opened & over-hauled.

Besides we would like to draw your atention to the following -

1. there is gear box & clutch trouble whicm must be overhauled
2. Tyres & tubes are required to try the vehicle on the road this is very essential
3. Upholstery and painting work must be done after mechancal job has been completed.
4. Ignation switch and key have not been sent with the car which is necessary to start to engine.
5. Instruction book is required if you have it.
6. An advance of Rs 2,000/- by cheque to the above garage is required to start the work.

We shall be much obliged if you kindly comply with the above mentioned points.

Thanking you in anticipation

yours faithfully

for simplex garage

Rmpesikaka (signed)

proprietor
-----------------------

Last edited by sat : 19th August 2009 at 12:54. Reason: spelling ..
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Old 19th August 2009, 22:43   #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sat View Post
The answer lies in the small metal plate
Great ! So we are making some headway. The car obviously is a 6.8 litre ( as also claimed by Ranjit that the bore measured out to 6.8 litre)

Sat I think its possible that Merc engineers intentionally detuned compression to enable the blower to push out 180bhp from the engine. So while the unblown 630 was also 100bhp this car too put out 100 bhp on account of marginally lowered compression. And as you rightly said the dual carb setup of the S engine resulted in a 20 bhp unblown power hike

On the S engine the engineers had apparently used a gear driven roots supercharger running at thrice the crank speed enabling the 180 bhp from the engine. Perhaps this car has a similar mechanism. I vaguely remember Mr. Tutu Dhawan refering to a wild supercharger sound under hard acceleration

This car may be sold pretty close to the release of the S as possibly the engine blocks being cast and bored were intended for the new S. If you observe the histories of many cars, I am thinking especially the Jag SS1's, often a mfg would have unsold chassis from a previous model and they would use them up for different models. Merc could very well have had a few left over K chassis which they simply slotted the S engine with the single carb manifold and cleared their stock. The touring body makes sense as Merc didn't want to advertise the car was for sports driving, although it came with a beast of an engine.

I think it was sometime in 1928 that the switch to S occured

Thanks Sat for the clarification.

Last edited by DKG : 19th August 2009 at 22:49.
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Old 20th August 2009, 19:19   #205
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Merc could very well have had a few left over K chassis which they simply slotted the S engine with the single carb manifold and cleared their stock.
I have always thought this is what happened with this car..

do enjoy these video's

1928 Mercedes-Benz Typ S 36/220 Sports Tourer


this is with the 7.1 liter engine, 100mm x 150mm (bore/stroke)


you can hear the supercharger in this video, its accurately described as 'spine tingling whine'


I cannot seem to find a utube video of a similar car doing the rounds of monaco, the supercharger is put to good use..

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Old 24th August 2009, 05:13   #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
When I last ran into the great grandson of Prince Hamidullah I asked if he could help me trace the whereabouts of the Merc and the Bentley and right there he called Pataudi to see if he remembered and sadly we drew a blank. I doubt if anyone in the family even knows such amazing cars existed in their ancestor's home. I am inclined to believe these two outstanding cars may not have survived. It would be a miracle if they reappear after disappearing from the scene for so long.

Sad, but I guess to most of them it was just a passing fancy which they tired of easily and either gave the cars away or their estate sold them off at scrap value

How about some wishful thinking, a retired English major from the British era dies at 95 and both these beauties are found in some remote village in England in a barn completely camouflaged by heavy overgrowth over the past 60 years. Cars found all intact !!
Well DKG, at least in the case of the Bentley, looks like that is really "Alice in Wonderland". According to an article from Roni Khan in a 1970's Veteran & Vintage article, the car met a sad end. In the context of the article, I think that meant "scrapped" !
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Old 24th August 2009, 11:32   #207
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I have been unable to add to this discussion as I was travelling so here goes.

The "K" in the model names of the early SSK/SSKL cars actually refers to the short whellbase and the "K" in the model names of the later 500K/540K series of cars refers to the Supercharger "Kompressor"

About authenticating the car in question all the owner has to do is to send in a request for a certificate to the MB Museum along with proof of ownership and a certain amount of fees and they will in turn send across a beautifull parchment kind of document that can be framed with all the details about the car.

I had forwarded a link to this to Indrojit for authenticating his Mercedes Tourer some while ago.

Wouldn't it be worth it to spend this small amount and have the car authenticated by the makers ?/
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Old 24th August 2009, 17:33   #208
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Default Classic MB certificate

Find below details of how you can get a certificate for your beloved MB.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/vintag...ml#post1447473 (Mercedes Benz Club-India)
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Old 25th August 2009, 00:22   #209
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I have a book called as "The Great Cars" which does have a mention of the 6.8 litre and 7 litre Mercs. In 1926, the K was referred to a Kompressor whereas in 1928 when the SSK was released, the K referred to kurz - short. Will post a pic of the article tomorrow. The article also mentions that the car was also called the new S or the 36-220 Mercedes Benz.
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Old 28th August 2009, 17:22   #210
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Attached is another 630 which is in New Zealand, shown on the site of Hans Compter. Enjoy!
About this being a 680, well it not. Period. If you were aware of the discussions going on at the Cartier event, you would know about the situation. And the matter would have been cleared up long ago. As a 630. Somehow this question keeps coming up. I also happened to chat with the new owner about this.
A few years ago the story circulating was that Mercedes Benz did not have the records of this series, so they could not confirm the history.
I believe that the car had a lot of mechanical problems and was not working for years. The aluminium engine was seeping oil as the block or whatever had become porous. But hats of to the guy who got her to work, I believe that it was Mr. Tutu Dhawan. I was told that even some guys from Mercedes had come to Delhi to see the car.
The only point which disturbs is the mention of
HUBRAUM 6740 LEISTUNG PS 100/180
on the label. But if it was so clear, then why is there a confusion even today? And not only among us on this forum, but even at international events.
There is much more to it than meets the eye, including the present state of the engine number.
If getting a certificate was so easy, then why was it not obtained before?
The puzzle is not only about the identity, but also about the handling of the identification process. So let us keep on wondering

Cheers harit
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Last edited by harit : 28th August 2009 at 17:25.
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