Go Back   Team-BHP > BHP India > Vintage Cars & Classics in India > Pre-War


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 27th October 2009, 05:25   #451
Newbie
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Columbia, SC, USA
Posts: 13
Thanked: 4 Times
Default

To my knowledge, only THREE 1930-31 Cadillac V-16 models were acquired by pre-independence Indian potentates. One was the so-called "tiger-hunt" car with custom coachwork by "Pinin," the youngest of the Farina brothers (NOT the company "Pininfarina"); it was acquired by the Maharajah of Orccha in Bhopal; the second was bought by the Maharajah of Tikari; the third had custom coachwork designed by Belgian carrossier, Van den Plas and was possibly built by Lancefield of London. About that last car, I got a telephone call in June, 2004, from the grandson of this car's first owner, a wealthy Pakistani gentleman; the car survives in Pakistan and I am dying to hear more about it. Lancefield built a similar car on the V12 chassis; in the advertising brochure the text for the V12 version reads as follows: "This body is fitted with de Ville extension [removable curtain over the driving area] but it is otherwise designed as a Town Cabriolet with Fixed Head. (...) No running boards are fitted, steps being made to open with the doors. A distinguishing feature is the special type of wings fitted [cycle fenders]. The back seat is designed for two but can accommodate a third and two occasional seats are fitted, facing forward. The driving seat is very roomy and is designed specially for the comfort of the owner-driver. Colour scheme optional, and a choice of the very finest cloths and soft leathers. As supplied to Captain F.W. Hartman [CEO of Lendrum & Hartman, GM's British outlet in England] and Major E. Howard". Among the classifieds in England's "Motor" magazine for March 24, 1931, is an ad for that particular V-12; it was described as a sports saloon, painted French grey and fitted with a sunshine roof. The advertised cost at the time was £2350.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deutscheafrikar View Post
Thanks for all the info Awini... I look forward to getting some new info. So this Bhawalpur (pakistan punjab???) V16 who was the owner... and any idea what type or who manufactured the body?

Last edited by Rudra Sen : 27th October 2009 at 07:48. Reason: Removing tags.
veesixteen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2009, 11:13   #452
Senior - BHPian
 
wasif's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Abu Dhabi (for now)
Posts: 2,927
Thanked: 332 Times
Default

Hi Veesixteen.

You are correct about the two V16 Caddies that were with the Royal Families of Orccha and Tikari. Pictures of these are available on this thread

With regards to the car from Pakistan it is definitely the one that belonged to the Nawab of Bhawalpur. in fact it is said that he had two of them along with a Marmon V16 and many other interesting cars. Most were auctioned a while back but there still a few which were not sold due to pending litigations.

Pictures of one of the Caddies is to be found on the Pak Wheels website. It was a enclosed sedan / limousine ? but in a very sorry condition due to poor storage.

This would bring the figure of V16 caddies imported to India to al least four. There is also mention of a firth such car still surviving in India.

Wll try to find pics of the Bhawalpur cars.
wasif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2009, 11:17   #453
DKG
Senior - BHPian
 
DKG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 3,700
Thanked: 881 Times
Default

I've heard of the possibility of a V12 in India too. I wonder how many V12's came in
DKG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2009, 12:42   #454
BHPian
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Bombay
Posts: 950
Thanked: 89 Times
Default A Marmon 16 in India/Pakistan?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wasif View Post
Hi Veesixteen.

You are correct about the two V16 Caddies that were with the Royal Families of Orccha and Tikari. Pictures of these are available on this thread

With regards to the car from Pakistan it is definitely the one that belonged to the Nawab of Bhawalpur. in fact it is said that he had two of them along with a Marmon V16 and many other interesting cars. Most were auctioned a while back but there still a few which were not sold due to pending litigations.

Pictures of one of the Caddies is to be found on the Pak Wheels website. It was a enclosed sedan / limousine ? but in a very sorry condition due to poor storage.

This would bring the figure of V16 caddies imported to India to al least four. There is also mention of a firth such car still surviving in India.

Wll try to find pics of the Bhawalpur cars.
Wasif,

A Marmon 16 here?
Absolutely amazing. I am waiting for info. and pics

Another request - the Nawab of Bahawalpur's collection possibly deserves a separate thread.

Regards
Regards
issigonis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2009, 13:06   #455
Senior - BHPian
 
wasif's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Abu Dhabi (for now)
Posts: 2,927
Thanked: 332 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by issigonis View Post
Wasif,

A Marmon 16 here?
Absolutely amazing. I am waiting for info. and pics

Another request - the Nawab of Bahawalpur's collection possibly deserves a separate thread.

Regards
Regards
Hi.

It would definitely be interesting to start a thread on the Bhawalpur Cars but the thing is that Bhawalpur is now in Pakistan and I am not sure if anyone actually has pictures of the 24 cars auctioned a few years back.

Some of the cars are with members of VCCCP and can be found on their website and on the Pak Wheels Forum.

Here is a picture of the Nawab's Marmon V16 for your viewing pleasure.
Attached Images
 
wasif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2009, 13:33   #456
BHPian
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Bombay
Posts: 950
Thanked: 89 Times
Default

Wasif,

Thank you. This might well be the only Marmon in the subcontinent.
To me the marques which weren't too well known to our elites, are more interesting ( especially if these were as good or in some cases better than the Rolls Royces) :

Hispano Suiza (viz. H6B)
Pierce Arrow ( viz. the silver Arrow)
Marmon (viz.16)
Peerless
Lanchester
Isotta Fraschini
Duesenberg ( viz. the J & SJ)

Regards
issigonis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2009, 15:22   #457
DKG
Senior - BHPian
 
DKG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 3,700
Thanked: 881 Times
Default

Wasif I don't recall ever seeing a Marmon V16 with a grill like that. This is the Cadillac V16

The Nawab has had some kind of semi circular insignia band placed under the upper Cadillac crest. Also the V16 badge which normally came ahead of the grill on a arc resting on the headlamp sides got fixed onto the mesh, maybe they broke the rod and ended up fixing it directly to the mesh.

Last edited by DKG : 27th October 2009 at 15:35.
DKG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2009, 16:03   #458
Team-BHP Support
 
karlosdeville's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pune
Posts: 9,329
Thanked: 5,995 Times
Default

I came across some real rarities (online), the Benaras cars on display.

Cadillac
How rich were the Maharajas before Independence! Cars of the Maharajas-caddy01.jpg

1956/57 Plymouth Savoy
How rich were the Maharajas before Independence! Cars of the Maharajas-plymouth01.jpg

1936/37 Dodge (?)
How rich were the Maharajas before Independence! Cars of the Maharajas-dodge01.jpg

1947/48 Buick Super 8
How rich were the Maharajas before Independence! Cars of the Maharajas-buick01.jpg

1947 (?) Ford, possibly a van/light bus.
How rich were the Maharajas before Independence! Cars of the Maharajas-ford01.jpg

The jewel in the crown, 1917 (as the plate says) Minerva
How rich were the Maharajas before Independence! Cars of the Maharajas-minerva01.jpg

Varanasi - a set on Flickr
karlosdeville is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2009, 16:49   #459
BHPian
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Bombay
Posts: 950
Thanked: 89 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wasif View Post
Hi.

It would definitely be interesting to start a thread on the Bhawalpur Cars but the thing is that Bhawalpur is now in Pakistan and I am not sure if anyone actually has pictures of the 24 cars auctioned a few years back.

Some of the cars are with members of VCCCP and can be found on their website and on the Pak Wheels Forum.

Here is a picture of the Nawab's Marmon V16 for your viewing pleasure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
Wasif I don't recall ever seeing a Marmon V16 with a grill like that. This is the Cadillac V16

The Nawab has had some kind of semi circular insignia band placed under the upper Cadillac crest. Also the V16 badge which normally came ahead of the grill on a arc resting on the headlamp sides got fixed onto the mesh, maybe they broke the rod and ended up fixing it directly to the mesh.

I have pulled some jpegs from conceptcarz on the Marmon 16...see the pics
Attached Thumbnails
How rich were the Maharajas before Independence! Cars of the Maharajas-31_marmon_16_km06_rh_01.jpg  

How rich were the Maharajas before Independence! Cars of the Maharajas-31_marmon_16_km06_rh_03.jpg  

How rich were the Maharajas before Independence! Cars of the Maharajas-31_marmon_v16_limo_dv06mdb_03.jpg  

How rich were the Maharajas before Independence! Cars of the Maharajas-31marmon_145conv_dv08_gmg_02.jpg  

How rich were the Maharajas before Independence! Cars of the Maharajas-31marmon_sixteen_convcpe_dv07mba_01.jpg  

issigonis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2009, 17:36   #460
Senior - BHPian
 
wasif's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Abu Dhabi (for now)
Posts: 2,927
Thanked: 332 Times
Default

Oh Damn.

I mixed the pictures up. This is one of the two V16 Caddies from Bhawalpur. The other one is in a much worse state with the body almost collapsed.

I will look for the Marmon pictures and post them later.

BTW ther were and still are a few interesting Hispanos and Lanchesters in India.

The four Duesnebergs that came to India have since either been broken up or have left the country.

The Holkar SJ is in the US as is the Darrin Bodies J that was from Hyderabad. There is no trace of the other two so far or of a rumoured third car.

There were a few Isottas around to one of which was in the Imperial Palace Collection.

No Silver Arrows are on record to have reached our shores but ther are a few interesting Pierce Arrows still around. Three of them were on show art the Cartier Event recently.

No infor on whether there were / are any Peerless cars in India. Subject to correction on these facts
wasif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2009, 19:11   #461
Distinguished - BHPian
 
harit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 3,899
Thanked: 2,440 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by issigonis View Post
Wasif,

Thank you. This might well be the only Marmon in the subcontinent.
To me the marques which weren't too well known to our elites, are more interesting ( especially if these were as good or in some cases better than the Rolls Royces) :

Hispano Suiza (viz. H6B)
Pierce Arrow ( viz. the silver Arrow)
Marmon (viz.16)
Peerless
Lanchester
Isotta Fraschini
Duesenberg ( viz. the J & SJ)

Regards
Hi Issigonis,
Sorry, but what did you mean by that highlighted part of that sentence? Actually the so called elites will know these marques, others may not. And by elites I would confine to Vintage car enthusiasts.
Well, there is a Marmon in Indore, but not a V16. That car came from Gujrat. I did trace a story of 2 marmons in Mumbai, one was a 7 seater Limo, the other a tourer. Perhaps this tourer is the one now in Indore.
There are still some Lanchesters around, Mallya, Doc, Alwar. There were even some 1947 or so Lanchesters, looked similar to rebadged Austins.
I am not aware of a Peerless ever having come to India, but a top of the line Franklin did. I have pictures.

The Orchha Caddy was in Mumbai for some time, I have a picture of it on Marine Drive. And a friends dad used to service it.

There is a small writeup on prewarcar.cpm about the RR EX 17. See Tell A Friend about: From Riches to Rags… and back from Rags to Riches (UPDATE about 10 EX) - PreWarCar.com

Maybe someone would like to contribute there?

Cheers harit
harit is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2009, 20:25   #462
BHPian
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 138
Thanked: 29 Times
Default

@Harit, think what Issigonis meant was that in the old days the elite were not as familiar with the Marmon and some other exotic marques, as they were with the widely patronised Rolls Royce.
To draw a parallel , till a few years Rolex was the brand of choice in watches, for all but a few.
Do not think that it was directed at vintage car enthusiasts of today.
Peace.
911987 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2009, 20:49   #463
BHPian
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 207
Thanked: 135 Times
Default

The Marmon that is mentioned by Harit, which is in Indore, probably is the one that belonged to the Gajjar collection, in Ahmedabad. I remember seeing it in the Statesman car rally in Delhi, in 1978. However, from what I remember, it wasn't a tourer. It was a black and rather upright saloon, with a vertical windscreen.

Last edited by tonrag : 27th October 2009 at 20:50.
tonrag is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2009, 23:10   #464
Distinguished - BHPian
 
harit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 3,899
Thanked: 2,440 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonrag View Post
The Marmon that is mentioned by Harit, which is in Indore, probably is the one that belonged to the Gajjar collection, in Ahmedabad. I remember seeing it in the Statesman car rally in Delhi, in 1978. However, from what I remember, it wasn't a tourer. It was a black and rather upright saloon, with a vertical windscreen.
Yes, that is the one. From what little history I could find, it was picked up from a village in Gujrat, and kept there by a Kutchi gentleman from Mumbai. Yes, it was not a tourer.

Cheers harit
harit is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 28th October 2009, 11:51   #465
DKG
Senior - BHPian
 
DKG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 3,700
Thanked: 881 Times
Default

I think its fair to say that just like our marketplace today in olden days you had people buying on account of social considerations and some who bought because they were enthusiasts.

There is a strong likelihood that Rolls Royces got sold in larger numbers because it was important for the Maharajahs to curry favour with the Brits by impressing them. At the same time there were many hardcore enthusiasts too amongst the Indian rulers who through their travels abroad became familiar with other brands. Further you had travelling salesmen who brought cars to the homes of nobility to sell explaining the many rare cars too in India
DKG is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Book Review : The Maharajas & Their Magnificent Motor Cars IndrojitSircar Vintage Cars & Classics in India 42 4th June 2013 14:25
Top 10 cars... before you were born Revvmaster The International Automotive Scene 22 25th February 2005 10:27
So you thought M cars were great- Well read again! Revvmaster The International Automotive Scene 12 30th December 2004 17:22
Cars for the Super-Rich _Crazi4Speed_ The International Automotive Scene 2 6th March 2004 12:21


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 10:35.

Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks