Go Back   Team-BHP > BHP India > Vintage Cars & Classics in India > Pre-War


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 25th June 2012, 12:22   #166
Distinguished - BHPian
 
harit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 3,957
Thanked: 2,735 Times
Default Re: Pranlal Bhogilal Collection - Auto World - Dasthan - Kathwada - Gujarat

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
My experience was very different Harit. I was highly disappointed by the condition .......
Quote:
Originally Posted by wasif View Post
LOL...I dont agree with DKG on this ......I'd rather go and see the cars in whatever state they are displayed than have them locked uop or worse still sold abroad or to the breakers......these cars would have been lost !
........a museum up to the standards of the Schlumpf Collection but that is not the case here so enjoy what is available.......
Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
......after seeing the collection I was really disappointed both in the man and his cars.... Mr. Bhogilal had considerable means to acquire such a massive collection........
Quote:
Originally Posted by kasli View Post
.......would just like to say that times are different today a RR in scrap costs an arm and a leg and that time when his collection was built it was in pittens....... Schlumpf Collection book titled "Schlumpf Obsession" is that they acquired in the same style and stashed it away in a mill .....what you see and read otherwise the cars were collected , docketed and kept in sections of the mill.
Here its privately held which is feat also to be admired and they are kept good enough in respect to qty. Today the cost of things are ten times and remember he used his cars till the last days. Its the same as you and me so lets not criticize and appreciate whats the end result which is good for the community. Cheers
I tend to agree with DKG about the condition of the cars, I would also like to see them in a better state.

Having said that, we must not forget the circumstances prevailing when these cars were collected, and that Pranlal also changed with the time. Let me explain.
When the cars were collected, in the 1960's a Rolls could be bought for Rs 5000/- (and not all were that cheap even then!!), but Rs 5000/- was a lot of money. A bottle of Coke may have been Rs 0.35. Those amounts were no pittance! And after buying these cars, parts were not easily available. Tyres also not, so it was an even bigger effort to buy parts than the cars. In that period so many cars were modified, delco's in place of mageto's, changed rims because tyres were not available, engines changed. Import was not possible, dealers imported parts, kits etc. of cars on the road so that they could sell them. Pranlals cars were rarer. And parts were expensive, custom duties, import licences dealer margin made all expensive.

At that time Pranlal was one of the only large collector who kept his cars, other became collectors after the export was banned, before that they... well.... exported. When Pranlal bought his cars for collecting, Pratab Roy, Tom Roy, Sanghi brothers, Hari Agarwal, Thakkar brothers were those who also bought at that time, and then exported. Today Sanghi, Thakkar have/had collections, but they have also sent cars out, remember the famous Rewa Dailmler? I have a picture taken in Indore with this Daimler, a Bentley and many Rolls, most of these cars are out of the country. After the ban, a number of cars from Hari Agarwal went to Pranlal. So Pranlal did save cars for us to look at and enjoy in India. The Alwar Hispano was also on its way out.

Having said that, Pranlal, who had great taste not only fo cars, but also other antiquities, see the Museum complex, but later he did follow his own unique taste. Initially when restoring his cars, he did them back to original, I remember a Bentley whose roof was chopped, he got it put back and that too in original material aluminium. When he got that Silver Ghost chassis, he built it as a replica of the Mysore Victoria car, he could have built something more fanciful. The first sign of developing his own style was the Hotchkiss, I would not have done that. And then that Airflow. The car looked much better in its original colours. The India Tricolour Rolls, Alwar Hispano, these are all really challenging. And many cars do need restoration, this is to happen, we have to be a bit patient. Today parts and tyres are available, but they are expensive. Labour is also expensive, tin, painting, wood work, upholstry all are expensive. And good mechanics are difficult to find. And chrome is still a problem.

Therefore, I agree with DKG about condition of the cars, but I am of the opinion that a visit to the museum is worth the trip, and many cars are unique in India examples to be seem, even if the colour schemes on some cars are challenging. Pranlal had the passion in him to build this collection, that we are able to see these cars is a good thing.

About the Schlumpf collection, there is no parallel.
The Schlumpf brothers bought cars, they were restoring them, and they built the Museum which was almost ready. They lost focus on their business which lost money and then they could not pay the workers dues. The French government took over the collection and premisis, and opened it to the public. The French government did not restore cars, maybe some undergoing restorations were completed. There was a reserve collection of unrestored cars, these belonged to Schlumpf right upto the end, and were recently auctioned off. Again, there is no parallel to Pranlal and his collection.

Value of cars in real terms was always high, you have to factor in the purchasing power, what could you buy for one Rupee at that time and what do you get today. Our coins had silver, the content of which reduced with time and now even nickel in the coins is reducing or gone. Today the salary of a motor mechanic is more than what one bought a car for in the 1960"s.

Just think about all this.

Cheers harit

Last edited by harit : 25th June 2012 at 12:32.
harit is offline   (4) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 25th June 2012, 15:09   #167
DKG
Senior - BHPian
 
DKG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 3,706
Thanked: 929 Times
Default Re: Pranlal Bhogilal Collection - Auto World - Dasthan - Kathwada - Gujarat

Harit you have summed up very well. I do agree Mr Bhogilal saved an impressive collection for many in India to enjoy and also the concept of a museum is brilliant.

I don't mean to marginalise his contribution to the Indian vintage car scene in anyway, just that I was deeply disappointed by the manner in which all the cars were shabbily spruced up. Some are atrocious in their presentation.

But a thought crosses my mind and possibly in that is an explanation as to why the exhibits are such a shoddy affair. Remember the earthquake at Gujarat? Wasn't there some news that a lot of cars were damaged? Maybe to reopen the museum they hurriedly patched things up? Something horribly wrong with the body line of the 1931 Packard 830 deluxe he has. This was such a clean car but in the museum I was taken aback to find it looking tired and battered. The Hispano and the Lancia look like a gardner painted them with an enamel paint brush. Silver paint on chrome fittings, something did go wrong somewhere.

I would love to say that we should be thankful to Mr. Bhogilal for letting us see the cars. But somewhere in my heart I feel it's beyond the family's abilities to do justice to the cars. Not one car is worth a mention in terms of restoration.

I would like to see the entire collection auctioned off so that well heeled new generation collectors would buy a handful each and ensure the magnificent automobiles are returned to their former glory. Its too mammoth an exercise for his daughter to restore all the cars. And in their present condition they actually detract from the glory of the marques they represent which goes against the fundamentals of a museum exhibit.

For that matter I now also feel it's beyond Mr. Sanghi's capabilities to do justice to his collection which is lying locked up for decades. Over the next ten years I sincerely hope all these magnificent collections are auctioned so that new collectors who buy one or two cars each would do justice to the beauties.

Like Harit very rightly pointed out this has now become a very very expensive affair and unless you are well heeled maintaining a vintage car is no longer possible on a shoe string budget.

In the western world there is a long standing tradition of owners passing their cars on to another more worthy owner once the original owner felt he had grown too old or could no longer afford to maintain them.

Hope we start seeing this trend in India too.
DKG is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 26th June 2012, 18:11   #168
Distinguished - BHPian
 
harit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 3,957
Thanked: 2,735 Times
Default Re: Pranlal Bhogilal Collection - Auto World - Dasthan - Kathwada - Gujarat

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
Harit you have summed up very well. I do agree Mr Bhogilal saved an impressive collection for many in India to enjoy ........
Hi DKG, we agree on some points
Bhogilal saved cars to remain in India.
I agree with you about the Packard, are we talking about the same as pictured below? You say 1931, the board says 1930, in that rally where pictured it was listed as 1929. But what a Packard!
I don't think the Kutch earthquake damaged any of Pranlal's cars.
About the future of the cars, well that is for the family to decide and handle. They have exhibited the cars, so we have a certsin right to critique them (which we are doing), but they are not bound to listen to us in what should be done to them. We don't even know about thier means, they must be having so many issues to settle other than their cars. Its nice that inspite of cicumstances, the cars are now housed properly. Further steps are in their hands, I have no opinion on what they should do, just wishful to see them in good nik.

The pictures below were taken at a rally, the new Oberoi Hotel was under construction. During the drive a headlight glass fell off and broke, Pranlal was upset, but he had a replacement in stock.

Cheers harit

I just realised that both are not the same car! But still......
Attached Images
    

Last edited by harit : 26th June 2012 at 18:13.
harit is offline   (4) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 26th June 2012, 19:21   #169
DKG
Senior - BHPian
 
DKG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 3,706
Thanked: 929 Times
Default Re: Pranlal Bhogilal Collection - Auto World - Dasthan - Kathwada - Gujarat

Quote:
Originally Posted by harit View Post
are we talking about the same as pictured below? You say 1931, the board says 1930
Yes sir we are. This is a 1931 Packard 840 similar to the Porbandar car. I say 1931 because such hubs appeared only on the 31's. BTW the museum board got the car model right but wrong year. The 1930 cars were the seventh series.

The second car is a fabulous 1930 Packard 740. Only thing which looks odd are those triple blade bumpers. I have never seen Packards with such bumpers. I don't know why this car has such bumpers. It should have something like the museum car.

Last edited by DKG : 26th June 2012 at 19:23.
DKG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th June 2012, 19:41   #170
BHPian
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 187
Thanked: 369 Times
Default Re: Pranlal Bhogilal Collection - Auto World - Dasthan - Kathwada - Gujarat

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
Not one car is worth a mention in terms of restoration.
I would agree with this. Whilst the car have been "saved" or "preserved", that's pretty much it. Even the cars at D****n which I went to see a few years ago are in shabby condition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
I would like to see the entire collection auctioned off so that well heeled new generation collectors would buy a handful each and ensure the magnificent automobiles are returned to their former glory.
Not a chance of this happening given the conversation I had with him.

Amongst the many things we talked about was the potential of him "returning" a particular car to a family that had sold it to him many years before. The car was lying unused and I think, much worse for wear than when it was sold to him. Obviously, the family was willing to pay the market value but he was unwilling to sell any of his collection he told me, saying the family could "always visit" the car whenever they wanted. I explained that they wanted to bring the car back to life and use it, not look at it as a museum piece, but it's sitting in D****n still. It hasn't moved in years being in the same place all three times I went. I would add, that I am not criticising him at all - the car (and cars) was/were his property and it was entirely his perogative to do what he wished with them. I don't know how the cars have been protected post Pranlal, but I recall him mentioning a trust when we spoke which I should think will have clear objectives and trustees?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
In the western world there is a long standing tradition of owners passing their cars on to another more worthy owner once the original owner felt he had grown too old or could no longer afford to maintain them.
Really? This is the first I've heard of this! Whilst this might be an exception, your potrayal of it as a "tradition" is as far as I am aware incorrect. There is no "tradition" of passing cars on to "worthy" owners. If you're talking about serious cars, most of them end up at auction or going to other prominent/private collections or move within owners clubs. Collectors out of India are just as interested as Indians in getting the highest price for their cars! The price comes first, sentimentality a distant second if it is an option at all.
Faster789 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th June 2012, 19:50   #171
BHPian
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 187
Thanked: 369 Times
Default Re: Pranlal Bhogilal Collection - Auto World - Dasthan - Kathwada - Gujarat

Quote:
Originally Posted by harit View Post
Value of cars in real terms was always high, you have to factor in the purchasing power, what could you buy for one Rupee at that time and what do you get today. Cheers harit
I would add to this, that whilst the value of the cars in Indian terms was higher than your average car, the prices were still supressed compared to prices abroad for the same machinery which is why India was such an attractive port of call for collectors who knew how to get the cars out.
Faster789 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th June 2012, 20:27   #172
DKG
Senior - BHPian
 
DKG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 3,706
Thanked: 929 Times
Default Re: Pranlal Bhogilal Collection - Auto World - Dasthan - Kathwada - Gujarat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faster789 View Post
price comes first
Yes it does ! And probably you are right that sentiments of finding a worthy owner usually is tied into who bids the highest.

We are in 2012 and saving cars from export is no longer a great motivation to buy cars and lock away for decades. Now it should be, if you can't maintain it let someone who can have it. And this applies to me too
DKG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th June 2012, 22:04   #173
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: NAMMA BENGALURU
Posts: 5,613
Thanked: 2,469 Times
Default Re: Pranlal Bhogilal Collection - Auto World - Dasthan - Kathwada - Gujarat

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
In the western world there is a long standing tradition of owners passing their cars on to another more worthy owner once the original owner felt he had grown too old or could no longer afford to maintain them.

Hope we start seeing this trend in India too.
Very well said sir.

You know, i have come across many collectors who have many nice original cars, Its not in good taste to say this, But you know., Many of them dont have anyone (i meant their own kids) to pass on their cars after them, Yet they stay aloof from people, it dreads to understand what will happen to those cars after them

If they have no capicity to drive / maintain them, its best for them to pass it on to a young worthy deserving candidates for the car to see a bright future. I faced a similar issue while buying my VW recently, i was promised all the spares of the car along with it, but yet, inspite of the old gentleman not owning any VW's now, he still has retained all those Big 3 full boxes of VW spares.
PAVAN KADAM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th June 2012, 01:38   #174
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Ann Arbor
Posts: 1,993
Thanked: 4,357 Times
Default Re: Pranlal Bhogilal Collection - Auto World - Dasthan - Kathwada - Gujarat

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
Yes sir we are. This is a 1931 Packard 840 similar to the Porbandar car. I say 1931 because such hubs appeared only on the 31's. BTW the museum board got the car model right but wrong year. The 1930 cars were the seventh series.

The second car is a fabulous 1930 Packard 740. Only thing which looks odd are those triple blade bumpers. I have never seen Packards with such bumpers. I don't know why this car has such bumpers. It should have something like the museum car.
To the Packard 'novice", the second car looks so similar to the picture posted before of the Berar car with the four dead tigers. Same car ???
travancore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th June 2012, 03:49   #175
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Ann Arbor
Posts: 1,993
Thanked: 4,357 Times
Default Berar Packard ?

Sorry for the back to back posts. Just dug out the "Berar" Packard posted before. They look awfully similar to me......except for some differences on the valance / running board and the missing cowl vent.

Name:  Berar Packard Hunting.jpg
Views: 2982
Size:  60.0 KB

Name:  Bombay Packard 740 1930 Side L.jpg
Views: 1704
Size:  179.5 KB
travancore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th June 2012, 09:47   #176
Senior - BHPian
 
wasif's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Abu Dhabi (for now)
Posts: 2,938
Thanked: 366 Times
Default Re: Pranlal Bhogilal Collection - Auto World - Dasthan - Kathwada - Gujarat

The two Packards are indeed very similar but must be different cars ....its kind of hard to dispence with a cowl vent perfectly.

And the "Berar" car looks like it has chrome wheels and bonnet sides
wasif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th June 2012, 10:53   #177
BHPian
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 498
Thanked: 267 Times
Default Re: Pranlal Bhogilal Collection - Auto World - Dasthan - Kathwada - Gujarat

Quote:
Originally Posted by PAVAN KADAM View Post
Very well said sir.

You know, i have come across many collectors who have many nice original cars, Its not in good taste to say this, But you know., Many of them dont have anyone (i meant their own kids) to pass on their cars after them, Yet they stay aloof from people, it dreads to understand what will happen to those cars after them

If they have no capicity to drive / maintain them, its best for them to pass it on to a young worthy deserving candidates for the car to see a bright future. I faced a similar issue while buying my VW recently, i was promised all the spares of the car along with it, but yet, inspite of the old gentleman not owning any VW's now, he still has retained all those Big 3 full boxes of VW spares.
maybe if you offer him a fair price for the spares he might let you have them.... and who is anyone else to decide what is best for a person to do with his property, who knows, i might decide to be cremated in one of my cars when i pass on... hmmm the lagonda would be nice.
awini is offline   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 27th June 2012, 12:27   #178
Distinguished - BHPian
 
harit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 3,957
Thanked: 2,735 Times
Default Re: Pranlal Bhogilal Collection - Auto World - Dasthan - Kathwada - Gujarat

Quote:
Originally Posted by harit View Post
.........I just realised that both are not the same car! But still......
And so I did a little follow up.
The 1030/31 car came from a small state in Gujrat near the sea coast, and therefore the chrome is corroded. But she has a milage of less than 1000!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faster789 View Post
I would agree with this. Whilst the car have been "saved" or "preserved", that's pretty much it. Even the cars at D****n which I went to see a few years ago are in shabby condition.
Not a chance of this happening given the conversation I had with him.
Amongst the many things we talked about was the potential of him "returning" ....

Really? This is the first I've heard of this! Whilst this might be an exception, your potrayal of it as a "tradition" is as far as I am aware incorrect. There is no "tradition" of passing cars on to "worthy" owners.....The price comes first, sentimentality a distant second if it is an option at all.
Saving and preserving was the most important part, but we forget that cars were also maintained, restored and run. There is a particular Mandi Rolls which had serious issues, and they were solved. There is a struggle going on for the 540K. And yes, price does normally come first, and it plays a role even if some one has been given first right to refusal. Tradition of passing on cars to worthy owners is a myth, probably created with the help of wishful thinking and self appraisal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faster789 View Post
I would add to this, that whilst the value of the cars in Indian terms was higher than your average car, the prices were still supressed compared to prices abroad for the same machinery which is why India was such an attractive port of call for collectors who knew how to get the cars out.
Spot on, and that worked to my advantage for so long

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
Yes it does ! And probably you are right that sentiments of finding a worthy owner usually is tied into who bids the highest.
We are in 2012 and saving cars from export is no longer a great motivation to buy cars and lock away for decades. Now it should be, if you can't maintain it let someone who can have it. And this applies to me too
I would say that saving cars from export was never the motivation, it was a by the way result of collecting, a passion and a hobby of owning these cars. If I can't maintain a car, I don't know what to do. "Let someone else have it" is way too simplistic. Let me ask, at what price? And you yorself know how people react when you quote a price. And then there are the dealers. And what did you mean "this applies to me", is there a car you can't maintain or are you the "someone"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PAVAN KADAM View Post
Very well said sir.

You know, i have come across many collectors who have many nice original cars, Its not in good taste to say this, But you know........
If they have no capicity to drive / maintain them, its best for them to pass it on to a young worthy deserving candidates for the car to see a bright future. I faced a similar issue while buying my VW recently, i was promised all the spares of the car along with it, .....
When you know, then why say it? Cars if not passed on to kids as none around would remain with an estate and then there are administrators who deal with the estate. Such cars can rot, or come out. Many cars have been passed on by estates. Cars also get passed on to nephews, for examle, no need to "dread".
Again worthy description, and are cars meant to have bright futures? It seems that when you took delivery of your VW, you did not settle the issue of the spares at that time, if it was promised you should have taken at the same time, maybe he would like to see some moolah for them. We don't know the circumstances here and don't need to know, but eventually such junk does come out, either a junk dealer gets them, or someone clearing out has ideas and offers them to appropriate persons. I have purchased old car parts from juna paperwallah shops in Malabar Hill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by travancore View Post
To the Packard 'novice", the second car looks so similar to the picture posted before of the Berar car with the four dead tigers. Same car ???
Quote:
Originally Posted by wasif View Post
The two Packards are indeed very similar but must be different cars ....
Travancore a novice, what a joke. Anyway, these are not the same cars, but similarity is striking. The Pranlal car came from Rajasthan.

Let the debate go on**

Cheers harit
harit is offline   (3) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 27th June 2012, 15:22   #179
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: NAMMA BENGALURU
Posts: 5,613
Thanked: 2,469 Times
Default Re: Pranlal Bhogilal Collection - Auto World - Dasthan - Kathwada - Gujarat

Quote:
Originally Posted by awini View Post
maybe if you offer him a fair price for the spares he might let you have them.... and who is anyone else to decide what is best for a person to do with his property, who knows, i might decide to be cremated in one of my cars when i pass on... hmmm the lagonda would be nice.
See... everyone has their own point of view


Quote:
Originally Posted by harit View Post
Again worthy description, and are cars meant to have bright futures? It seems that when you took delivery of your VW, you did not settle the issue of the spares at that time, if it was promised you should have taken at the same time, maybe he would like to see some moolah for them. We don't know the circumstances here and don't need to know, but eventually such junk does come out, either a junk dealer gets them, or someone clearing out has ideas and offers them to appropriate persons. I have purchased old car parts from juna paperwallah shops in Malabar Hill.

Cheers harit

Sir, that person is a family friend, and all was discussed during the purchase and made clear, but eventually when i was supposed to take the spares, either he claimed he was unwell or he was out of station... Anyways, certain lessons are learnt the hard way.

But you know the basic topic of cars being passed on to a worthy keeper, somehow god must give them some gyan, untill then, all that we can do is keep wishing
PAVAN KADAM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th June 2012, 17:32   #180
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Ann Arbor
Posts: 1,993
Thanked: 4,357 Times
Default Re: Pranlal Bhogilal Collection - Auto World - Dasthan - Kathwada - Gujarat

Quote:
Originally Posted by harit View Post
And so I did a little follow up.

Travancore a novice, what a joke. Anyway, these are not the same cars, but similarity is striking. The Pranlal car came from Rajasthan.

Let the debate go on**

Cheers harit
Harit, are you trying to give me more credit than is due ?

I know a little something about R-R's, sometimes enough to make a fool of myself. Of Packards, I know naught.

Regarding the Packard, I assumed it was one of those Bhogilal "customizations", the chrome etc.
travancore is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
A road trip to Gujarat - Kuch din to gujaro Gujarat me for_cars1 Travelogues 23 2nd November 2016 08:42
Honda to set up "World's biggest Scooter Plant" in Gujarat ad3952n Motorbikes 0 4th August 2014 09:33
Rest in Peace Mr. Pranlal Bhogilal: Ace Vintage Car Collector harit Vintage Cars & Classics in India 40 23rd January 2011 16:24
World's biggest music collection on sale satish_appasani Shifting gears 1 21st February 2008 14:48
world's largest nissan collection pawan The International Automotive Scene 12 10th November 2007 21:04


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 20:49.

Copyright 2000 - 2018, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks