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Old 17th March 2009, 16:15   #46
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Also J196 was apparently imported into India by Mitter Brothers. Does anyone know who the end user was?

I'm also trying to find some documentation on these cars. This car was teh Ex Lord Southampton car which in all probability was later purchased by the Maharaja Of Idar
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Old 17th March 2009, 16:19   #47
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This car was teh Ex Lord Southampton car which in all probability was later purchased by the Maharaja Of Idar
I was thinking the same thing. Is this confirmed somewhere Wasif? And what happened to the car post Idar?

Further apart from these four cars there were atleast 2 or 3 more that came. I vaguely remember Manvendra Singh's article mentioning this. Would have to pull the old mag out to make some more headway. BTW he does have details of all Duesenbergs that came to India

Last edited by DKG : 17th March 2009 at 16:24.
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Old 17th March 2009, 16:30   #48
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I was thinking the same thing. Is this confirmed somewhere Wasif? And what happened to the car post Idar?
The part about it being the Ex Lord's car is for sure but the fact that it went to Idar is not yet fully documented, could even have gone to Baroda.

Apart from these there was talk about a Model A with the Mitter family in Calcutta. The owner was identified as a Judge or something similar.

Somebody who has been into cars from thelate 1970's in Calcutta should be able tp help with this.
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Old 17th March 2009, 17:12   #49
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One other car in India may have been a town car possibly for the Baroda family

Perhaps someone from Calcutta could clarify on the Mitter car

Last edited by DKG : 17th March 2009 at 17:14.
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Old 17th March 2009, 17:21   #50
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Why finally? It is well over a year old
Well it may have been a year old, but i am coming across this thread only now
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Old 17th March 2009, 19:02   #51
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I have gone through this thread again from the beginning. There seems to be some confusion. The Holkar Dussy and the Idar Dussy are one and the same.
I had earlier written a note where I had mixed up Gwalior and Holkar, (I often do that, no Awini? ) and the story is that the car went from Holkar to Idar and then sometime to the actor Sheikh Mukhtiar.
As mentioned by somewhere before, a school friend of mine was related to the Idar royal family and during these school days he told me that his grandfather owned ths Duessy. And he sold it for Rs 3000/-.
Well, it landed with the Sheikh and he took it out of India though he was not supposed to. I always wondered why was it smuggled out when a ban did not exist at that time. The reason was that he migrated to Pakistan, and so this became evacuee property. And so not eligible for him to take along.
Somewhere maybe Mr. Subodh Nath can give some input.
But this car was certainly not carried out by elephants. Maybe another car.
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Old 18th March 2009, 10:24   #52
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That would be accuarte Harith.

I just got my copy of Manvendra Singh's Automobiles of the Maharajas and in it there is a snippet on how the car was brought to Gondal as one of the princes wanted to buy it. His guardian found the car too powerful and declined from buying it and the car subsequently went on to Idar.

Now that is clarified but the fact remains that four cars are documented to have come to India, maybe six in total,so the question now is who was the end user for the Weymann Bodied sedan J 196 of the Mitter Brothers.

The other question begging to be asked is why would Maharaja Yeshwantrao Holkar, the greatest collected of cars in princely India dispose off such a significant car. The book talks of him moving some of his exceptional cars like his Alfas, Bugatti, and Talbot Lago to his other residences around the world to protect them from the harsh India climate.

The was in touch with someone at the Cord Aubern Duesenberg Museum in the US and the have indicated that they don't have any knowledge on the present whereabouts of these four cars.

However an interesting fact came up about the Holkar car. The chassis was sent to the UK Duesenberg dealer, R.S.M. Motors and subsequently to Gurney Nutting & Co for fabrication of its body.As when it was ready it was deemed too risky to ship the car to India due to the war so it was shipped back to New York.

The Duesenberg drivers drove the car back to Indy for tuning and testing. It was then driven across the country and delivered to the Maharaja at his Santa Ana, California, where the Maharaja lived for close to an year. The car was shipped out to Singapore subsequently, one presumes on its way to India.

It is said that when delivered the car had 3800 miles on it. The Maharaja was said to have been 28 years of age at that time.


The Hyderabad cars were the Fernandes & Darrin Convertible Victoria J 499 and the Murphy Convertible Sedan J 202.

I am sure Manvendra Singh would be able to tell us more. It would be great if him or his son would follow these threads and add their input.

This would then become the most factual account of cars in India.
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Old 18th March 2009, 11:40   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wasif View Post
That would be accuarte Harith.

I just got my copy of Manvendra Singh's Automobiles of the Maharajas and in it there is a snippet on how the car was brought to Gondal as one of the princes wanted to buy it. His guardian found the car too powerful and declined from buying it and the car subsequently went on to Idar.

Now that is clarified but the fact remains that four cars are documented to have come to India, maybe six in total,so the question now is who was the end user for the Weymann Bodied sedan J 196 of the Mitter Brothers.

The other question begging to be asked is why would Maharaja Yeshwantrao Holkar, the greatest collected of cars in princely India dispose off such a significant car. The book talks of him moving some of his exceptional cars like his Alfas, Bugatti, and Talbot Lago to his other residences around the world to protect them from the harsh India climate.

The was in touch with someone at the Cord Aubern Duesenberg Museum in the US and the have indicated that they don't have any knowledge on the present whereabouts of these four cars.

However an interesting fact came up about the Holkar car. The chassis was sent to the UK Duesenberg dealer, R.S.M. Motors and subsequently to Gurney Nutting & Co for fabrication of its body.As when it was ready it was deemed too risky to ship the car to India due to the war so it was shipped back to New York.

The Duesenberg drivers drove the car back to Indy for tuning and testing. It was then driven across the country and delivered to the Maharaja at his Santa Ana, California, where the Maharaja lived for close to an year. The car was shipped out to Singapore subsequently, one presumes on its way to India.

It is said that when delivered the car had 3800 miles on it. The Maharaja was said to have been 28 years of age at that time.


The Hyderabad cars were the Fernandes & Darrin Convertible Victoria J 499 and the Murphy Convertible Sedan J 202.

I am sure Manvendra Singh would be able to tell us more. It would be great if him or his son would follow these threads and add their input.

This would then become the most factual account of cars in India.
I believe that Manvendra has already done some research on Duesenberg's
in India. And this must have been published or is lying with ADC folks.
BTW, there are still a few Duesenberg parts lying around, I have seen a wheel, may have been a stepney, and someone has a rear trunk. It is just a matter of finding the rest of a car.
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Old 19th March 2009, 11:12   #54
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Default Current location of J 585 & J 499.

I have just learned that the Holkar Duesenberg J 585 and the Hyderabad car J 499 are both in the collection of General William Lyone in California.

Here are a few pictures of J 585. Will try to get more and of the other car and post soon.
Attached Thumbnails
Duesenbergs in India (Incl. Cord & Auburn)-holkar-1.jpg  

Duesenbergs in India (Incl. Cord & Auburn)-lyonwarehouse67.jpg  

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Old 22nd March 2009, 15:34   #55
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Originally Posted by harit View Post
I have gone through this thread again from the beginning. There seems to be some confusion. The Holkar Dussy and the Idar Dussy are one and the same.
I had earlier written a note where I had mixed up Gwalior and Holkar, (I often do that, no Awini? ) and the story is that the car went from Holkar to Idar and then sometime to the actor Sheikh Mukhtiar.
As mentioned by somewhere before, a school friend of mine was related to the Idar royal family and during these school days he told me that his grandfather owned ths Duessy. And he sold it for Rs 3000/-.
Well, it landed with the Sheikh and he took it out of India though he was not supposed to. I always wondered why was it smuggled out when a ban did not exist at that time. The reason was that he migrated to Pakistan, and so this became evacuee property. And so not eligible for him to take along.
Somewhere maybe Mr. Subodh Nath can give some input.
But this car was certainly not carried out by elephants. Maybe another car.


Hi, Well i can put some more light to this. Holkar and Idar is the same car. I as a boy have seen this car and even have set in this car. This car had come from Idar to my Family and it was in family for few years. Unfortunately we dont have many photos of it but we had one photo of that car in my old house. I will look for it and if i find it will put for you all to see. Later a muslim broker took this car and was sold to Sheikh Muktar Film actor who subsequently excanged it with brand new Chevrolet Impala and 1,20,000 Rs. as heard and buyer took it to USA. Sad that it went out of my family and the Country as there was no ban to export vintage cars. some more things i will share with you some time later about this car.
Subodh Nath
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Old 22nd March 2009, 17:16   #56
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A few more pictures of the Holkar / Idar Duesenberg from the 2007 Pebble Beach Concours where it was displayed by General Lyons.

The car was previously owned by Jay Leno, who had it refurbished to the way it is now.

I am very curious as to why we don't see any cars from the Holkar stables in India. There are plenty of cars from other royal stables with the state plates like Jodhpur, Dhanbad 15, Janjira etc but I have never see a car with the Inodre state plates on it.

What is the reason for this ? Going by what I have read the Holkar stables had the most exceptional cars ever made.

Also is the regestration number CUW 109 on the car an Indian number?

I have pictures of the Holkar Alfa which I will post in the Maharajas thread soon.

The last three pictures are of J 481 of 1932 which belonged to Greta Garbo. This is one of the four duesenbergs bodied by Fernandes & Darrin and is said to be identical to the Hyderabad Duesenberg J 499. Both were on the LWB chassis.
Attached Thumbnails
Duesenbergs in India (Incl. Cord & Auburn)-duesenbergsjgurneynuttingspeedster_1.jpg  

Duesenbergs in India (Incl. Cord & Auburn)-duesenbergsjgurneynuttingspeedster_2.jpg  

Duesenbergs in India (Incl. Cord & Auburn)-duesenbergsjgurneynuttingspeedster_3.jpg  

Duesenbergs in India (Incl. Cord & Auburn)-duesenbergsjgurneynuttingspeedster_4.jpg  

Duesenbergs in India (Incl. Cord & Auburn)-duesenbergsjgurneynuttingspeedster_5.jpg  

Duesenbergs in India (Incl. Cord & Auburn)-duesenbergsjgurneynuttingspeedster_6.jpg  

Duesenbergs in India (Incl. Cord & Auburn)-duesenbergjfernandezanddarrinvictoria_1.jpg  

Duesenbergs in India (Incl. Cord & Auburn)-duesenbergjfernandezanddarrinvictoria_2.jpg  

Duesenbergs in India (Incl. Cord & Auburn)-duesenbergjfernandezanddarrinvictoria_3.jpg  

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Old 22nd March 2009, 20:08   #57
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Originally Posted by wasif View Post
A few more pictures of the Holkar / Idar Duesenberg from the 2007 Pebble Beach Concours where it was displayed by General Lyons.


I am very curious as to why we don't see any cars from the Holkar stables in India. There are plenty of cars from other royal stables with the state plates like Jodhpur, Dhanbad 15, Janjira etc but I have never see a car with the Inodre state plates on it.

What is the reason for this ? Going by what I have read the Holkar stables had the most exceptional cars ever made.

Also is the regestration number CUW 109 on the car an Indian number?

I have pictures of the Holkar Alfa which I will post in the Maharajas thread soon.

The last three pictures are of J 481 of 1932 which belonged to Greta Garbo. This is one of the four duesenbergs bodied by Fernandes & Darrin and is said to be identical to the Hyderabad Duesenberg J 499. Both were on the LWB chassis.
Most Holkar cars I have seen pictures of (especially during the time of Yeshwantrao Holkar) had a "HSC" plate e.g. "HSC-3". I assume this stood for Holkar State Car. One of our experts can confirm.

CUW-109 from everything I know was the car's registration in England.

The Greta Garbo and Berar Duesenbergs were identical - except
- the Berar car had an even longer trunk / dickey;
- a cleaner line at the bonnet to cowl / scuttle.
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Old 23rd March 2009, 10:11   #58
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Most Holkar cars I have seen pictures of (especially during the time of Yeshwantrao Holkar) had a "HSC" plate e.g. "HSC-3". I assume this stood for Holkar State Car. One of our experts can confirm.

CUW-109 from everything I know was the car's registration in England.

The Greta Garbo and Berar Duesenbergs were identical - except
- the Berar car had an even longer trunk / dickey;
- a cleaner line at the bonnet to cowl / scuttle.
The Berar Car is with General Lyons's Collection in California. Try as I might I have been unable to get any pictures of it. There were four cars bodied by Fernandez and Darrin, all with the Convertible Victoria body style.

The Garbo and the Berar cars were on the LWB chassis and the other two were on the SWB chassis. The two LBW cars and the third SJ were identical in terms of body style but the fourth car had running boards etc.

Can you or anyone help finding pictures of the Berar car as it is today? I have pictures of the other three cars.

Also does anyone have further info on a Mr. or Justice SC Mitter of Calcutta who is said to have a Duesenberg 7 passenger limo.

Last edited by wasif : 23rd March 2009 at 10:12.
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Old 23rd March 2009, 11:21   #59
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[quote=wasif;1225817]There were four cars bodied by Fernandez and Darrin, all with the Convertible Victoria body style.

The Duesenberg registry lists J481 and J499 both LWB and J542 as the cars made by Fernandez and Darrin. Which would be the fourth?

There were three more cars which Darrin did with Hibbard.

Quote:
Also does anyone have further info on a Mr. or Justice SC Mitter of Calcutta who is said to have a Duesenberg 7 passenger limo.
Will update if something comes up
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Old 23rd March 2009, 14:28   #60
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[quote=DKG;1225972]
Quote:
Originally Posted by wasif View Post
There were four cars bodied by Fernandez and Darrin, all with the Convertible Victoria body style.

The Duesenberg registry lists J481 and J499 both LWB and J542 as the cars made by Fernandez and Darrin. Which would be the fourth?

There were three more cars which Darrin did with Hibbard.



Will update if something comes up
Hi DKG.

On the net if you look around you will find that Fernandez and Darrin are credite to have built bodies for four Deusenberg Chassis, two on the LWB and two on the SWB.

The first no J481 is the LWB Greta Garbo blue car pictured below.

The second would be J499, the Azam Jah car also on an un supercharged LWB chassis. No present day pictures to be found of this car but its said to be in the Lyon collection.

The third is J542 with Jay Leno. This is a supercharged SWB chassis shown in picture two.
Jay Leno's Garage - 1932 Duesenberg Fernandez & Darrin Conv. Victoria

The fourth is another SWB car with the Cofer collection. It is claimed that this is also J542 but its disputable as two cars with different looking bodies can't be the same. This is the last picture.
1935-DuesenburgSJ

Now the confusion i can see is about the last cars body number as the cars with the leno collection and the cofer collection cant have the same numbers. They are both claimed to be SWB chassis though.

This leaves J499 with the Lyon collection on the LWB chassis. If we can get current pictures of this it would help sort this out.

Alternately the Lenno car is J499 the Azam Jah car.

What do you think ??

Darrin is in total credited with 10 bodies on Duesenberg chassis.
Attached Thumbnails
Duesenbergs in India (Incl. Cord & Auburn)-duesenbergjfernandezanddarrinvictoria_1.jpg  

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