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Old 23rd March 2009, 21:17   #61
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[quote=wasif;1226350]
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Originally Posted by DKG View Post


The second would be J499, the Azam Jah car also on an un supercharged LWB chassis. No present day pictures to be found of this car but its said to be in the Lyon collection.

The third is J542 with Jay Leno. This is a supercharged SWB chassis shown in picture two.
Jay Leno's Garage - 1932 Duesenberg Fernandez & Darrin Conv. Victoria

The fourth is another SWB car with the Cofer collection. It is claimed that this is also J542 but its disputable as two cars with different looking bodies can't be the same. This is the last picture.
1935-DuesenburgSJ


This leaves J499 with the Lyon collection on the LWB chassis. If we can get current pictures of this it would help sort this out.

Alternately the Lenno car is J499 the Azam Jah car.

The burgundy car shown in picture two is un-supercharged (see the louvres on the side of the bonnet). Supercharged cars had a machined Aluminum cover on the left and four exhaust pipes on the right side.

This car could well be J499:
- The Berar car had a slanting bonnet to cowl line, the Greta Garbo car's was vertical. Unfortunately I cannot tell by this picture if it is slanted or vertical.
- The Berar car also had no traditional spot lamps at the bonnet / cowl join line

The car in the third picture is definitely supercharged

I have attempted to show some of the differences between the Berar and Greta Garbo cars (both of which were un-supercharged) below:
Attached Images
 
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Old 24th March 2009, 11:51   #62
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The maroon car could well be J499 and I am waiting for authentication on this.

Chris Summers, who along with Randy Ema, are authorities on Duesenberg cars, has stated that J196 was with the Maharaj a of Ramnagar where it was seen last in 1952. He further states that this car was with the Maharaja of Jodhpur as late as 1977.

Do we have any further informatyion on this ?

They also indicated that J202 was with the Mitters and later was scrapped in Assam by someone named Gopal Agarwal. Is there anything further know by anyone here on this ?

Thus the consensus so far is that J196 and J202 both dissapeared in India.
Until further info surfaces we can safely assume that both have been scrapped.

Also most Duesenbergs, both supercharged and un supercharged had exposed exhaust pipes on the right side and some of them even had the louvres on the left and some the aluminium plate.

Last edited by wasif : 24th March 2009 at 11:53.
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Old 13th April 2009, 15:46   #63
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Originally Posted by DKG View Post
Julian I don't think there is any debate about that. These images are the last (sadly) vestiges of what was once a glorious heritage gracing India

What remains in India is a miniscule of what once was this great country's heritage, and for centuries the royal families in India were its custodian, whether someone likes to accept that contribution or not is not relevant.

In India historians choose to paint a picture they prefer to paint. Often it reflects their aches stemming from their social standing and personal philosophies and rarely is it an authentic account of what actually transpired

I do know though the former royalty left India with a heritage that only makes one feel proud. I doubt if the political czars of today will leave anything behind to even warrant their mention in history.
Agreed, DKG agreed.I feel like thumping the desk in front and scream 'aye' , 'aye'. I have seein in front of my own eyes beautiful buildings, which were works of art owned by former royalty being pulled down and extremely ugly buildings come up for the nouveau riche. How many patrons of art do you see amongst today's rich and powerful? and don't you think that they're just as exploitative as the royalty? in other words, we've inherited the bad things, the exploitation of the poor, mass scale poverty,starvation etc and the good things (the patronage of art and culture enabling a man of learning or a man of art to selflessly pursue his craft) has got lost somewhere down the line.Just look at the condition of our govt. institutions and ask any old timer how these institutions worked in the princely era.
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Old 14th April 2009, 10:21   #64
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@coomar - some of our senior government officials do acknowledge that some of the states, like Hyderabad, did a stellar job on public healthcare, education and irrigation. In fact post independence many government officers used reports and surveys done during the former regimes to plan projects. Its usually politicians who rubbish the former rulers only to further their own selfish interests. That said I am sure there must have been exploitation too which left its scars.

However, I feel we can all atleast agree that on the cultural front their contribution is timeless. None of our classical music gharanas would have survived had it not been for the patronage they enjoyed, not to mention the fabulous art and artefacts that was gathered in India.
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Old 14th April 2009, 11:37   #65
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Just to add my two annas (we are talking of bygone eras, so annas it is).
Many Maharajas had a lot of money and spent on cultural stuff, leading to heritage. Their Palaces, music, dances, forts, personal belongings like armoury, cars, funiture, etc. which they could afford to buy as they were rich were for themselves only, and only themselves. Later when tougher economic times came, the public could enjoy these heritages. Palaces became hotels or museums, so one could stay or view. Music, arts etc. flourished because they were patronised and so these music schools with their own styles survived. They are certainly responsible for creating heritage, but that was a 'by the way' result, never their real intention from the beginning. They lived life as they could afford it.

There were ofcourse some, like the Baroda state which was really progressive, they founded institutions which were world class only to have rulers of independant India have them run down. The Universities, colleges, medical fascilities, administration in general.

Then there are many pictures of Maharajas on tiger hunts with some animal lying on the bonnet. But there was a system by which hunting was a sport limited to nobility, and limited in numbers, and the tiger population was maintained. Tom, Dick and Harry dared not shoot these cats. Now Tom, Dick and Harry have practically erradicated them. So much so for post independance good governance. Tigers were not a priority, sure, but one example.

Again, Maharajas purchased great cars, not for creation of an Indian motor heritage. A few Maharajas kept these cars, but many did not and they ended up in collections or were scrapped. They bought the cars for their prestige, opulence and to show off and sometimes to use, as most were very low milage cars. That they became our motoring heritage just happened.
2 annas became 3 annas, so time to stop.

Cheers Harit
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Old 14th April 2009, 12:42   #66
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Harit its a bit like this. Today there is a special breed of enthusiasts who collect cars and all things automotive. Chances are they are not doing so for the benefit of others and with the objective of leaving behind a rich heritage. Like the royalty of yesteryear the indulgence more often than not is for oneself. What's the spinoff? Generations to come will sit back in pride that someone (like you for example) did his bit to salvage and restore some priceless cars. Is credit due to people like that? Sure is. Did they do it for others? Possibly not, but then that's insignificant as the spinoff of one man's hobby is rich heritage for an entire country.

So in that light for all their selfish indulgences the royalty of yesteryear not only sustained our rich heritage but actually provided a market for some outstanding items to get created. Above all their homes provided a safe haven for art for centuries. For that alone we should appreciate them.
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Old 21st April 2009, 11:06   #67
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Hi.

I have just been able to confirm, thanks to Mr. Chris Summers and Mr. Steve Derus, of the ACD Club, that the maroon car in the picture below is actually J-499, the Darrin Convertible Victoria that was with the Hyd royal Family.

Any idea on who were the owners of this car after it was sold from Hyd and when it was exported ?

Also regardsing J-585, below is a list of people who have owned the car till date from Sheik Mukhtar onwards.

1. Sold by Sheik Mukhtar to Bill Brewster , USA.
2. Bill Brewster had the car restored and kept it till 1966.
3. Car was traded by Brewster to Lawrence Witten of Connecticut.
4. Next owner was Dr. Samuel Scher who passed it on to
5. Harry Resnick
6.Samuel Schwartz
7.Tom Perkins
8. Tom Barrett and finally to
9. General William Lyons of Coto De Caza California who still owns it along with J-499.

So it appears General Lyons is the current custodian of the two surviving Duesenbergs from the four that actually are recorded as having been in India.

He is known to have an amazing car collection that includes several Duesenbergs and probably the only surviving twin axle Mercedes from WW2
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Last edited by wasif : 21st April 2009 at 11:11.
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Old 21st April 2009, 20:02   #68
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Default Chain of ownership of J-499, the Prince Mouzzam Jan / Princess Niloufer Car

Below is the list of individuals who have owned the Duesenberg Convertible Victoria, J-499.This was the ex Prince Moazzam Jah and Princess Niloufer's car
This info has been provided by Mr. Chris Summers, one of the most knowledgable people with regards to ACD cars.

) William Durant Campbell--Paris, France--1935 to ?
2) Prince Azam Jah--India--? to 1938
3) Prince of Nepal--1938 to 1961
4) Hubert Fischer--Minnesota--1961 to May 1971
5) Dr. John Fischer--Minnesota (son of HF, inheritance)--May 1971 to November 1986
6) Rick Carroll--Jensen Beach, FL--November 1986 to March 1990
7) Imperial Palace--Las Vegas, NV--March 1990 to 1994 or 1995
Dr. Joseph Murphy--Pennsylvania--1994 or 1995
Current owner is General William Lyons.

It is interesting to note the car was actually bought used for Prince Moazzam Jah. This is strange in light of the fact that they had all the means to order a custom built new car, as was the case with the Murphy Convertible Sedan, J-202 that was aquired around the same time for Azam Jah, the Prince of Berar.

Does anyone have any information on what were the circumstances of the purcahse of these two cars for Hyderabad, Were they bought as a pair and imported to India at the same time.

Another interesting fact is that the next recorded owners of this car are the Nepalese Royal Family, who had the car till 1961.

With this information we are clear about three of the four Duesenbergs actually recorded to have come to India.

Now the mystrey is about J-196, imported by the Mitters. Who was this car imported and sold to and what happened to it subsequently.

Would be nice if some of the eminent restorers / collectors from Calcutta who have been active on this forum could shed further light on the Mitters and their cars.
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Old 21st April 2009, 21:58   #69
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If I am not mistaken General Lyons owns Goerings Goose blue 540K custom built roadster.
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Old 22nd April 2009, 09:59   #70
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Originally Posted by the mole View Post
If I am not mistaken General Lyons owns Goerings Goose blue 540K custom built roadster.
Goerings car was a blue roadster? Then which was the Butcher's blue roadster? Extremely pretty car, very colourful history.
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Old 22nd April 2009, 10:18   #71
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Here is a link to the photo gallery of General Lyons car collection.

BTW who are you refering to as the Butcher, Himmler???

Autoblog
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Old 22nd April 2009, 10:24   #72
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BTW who are you refering to as the Butcher, Himmler?
One 540K roadster was bought by a humble butcher somewhere in the 60s when these cars were worth nothing. He stored it for decades till it surfaced, totally untouched. The name 'Butchers car' somehow stuck.
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Old 22nd April 2009, 12:56   #73
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Comments on Off Topic points raised in this thread.

I believe that there were two Lincolns brought during the popes visit, the convertible and a black 1962 sedan. This sedan was owned by a Catholic family in Mumbai, the boy was with me in college.
The convertible landed up with the actor Prem Nath who was staying off Nepean Sea Road. I had visited his house for their Model T which is now on Peddar Road. For that he offered a rock botton Rs 23K. The Lincoln was priced at Rs 80K, too much for non-earning college students. They also had a Galaxie Convertible which is with a collector in Vashi.

The Butchers 540K was a dream find. A butcher did buy this UK registered car and stored it IN his backyard. Then they sold it to a dealer for a pittance. This dealer contacted one of the auction houses, and the guy flipped. It was very original and untouched.

About the surviving twin axle G series Mercs, well I believe that there are around 4 survivors. And very likely one was picked up in Gwalior. Still a mystery, but such a similar vehicle was there in extreemly bad condition. No clue if it is among the 4 survivors, if it was taken out, nothing known. It was together with a convertible Opel. These Mercs had powerful engines of a 540K.

I was given to understand that there were 6 Duesenbergs in India, one of them was the earlier A model. Mr. Barwani did some research for the ACD club, they must be knowing more.

Cheers harit
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Old 22nd April 2009, 13:14   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harit View Post
Comments on Off Topic points raised in this thread.

I believe that there were two Lincolns brought during the popes visit, the convertible and a black 1962 sedan. This sedan was owned by a Catholic family in Mumbai, the boy was with me in college.
But the Lincoln was off topic in other thread

What happened to the other Lincoln?
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Old 22nd April 2009, 13:37   #75
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Harit.

The info I have posted here is from the ACD club, Chris Summers and Randy Ema are the noted authorities on these cars and this is the extent of their knowledge on cars that came to India.

There have been rumors about one or two more Duesenberg cars having been brought to India but nothing is officially confirmed on this.

If they were brought here they were obviously bought used as the ACD club has the details on all Duesenbergs sold by the company to the first owners and there is no record of any others having gone to India as new.

They however have mentioned uncoroborated reports that there was a Town Car with a European body with gold plated fittings with one of the royal families but thats about it.

So happy hunting for J-196, of which no trace can be found so far and the other phantom cars.

Parts you mentioned that surfaced over the past would in all probability be from J- 202 that was broken up in Calcutta.

Maybe if someone can get to speak with Mr. Barwani to get further details it would be great.

Cheers

Wasif
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