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Old 7th July 2008, 23:42   #451
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Harit has this to say regarding the Rollers in question over the last few posts.

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I am reading the Rolls thread with interest. There is loose info in the last few pages which I will thread up nicely. And solve some mysteries!
Firstly, I am not a historian, but since the age of 12 I have been keenly following the vintage car scene, seeing cars, cutting out pictures from magazines etc. I have also gone and spoken to a lot of people all over India and involved myself in moving around with collectors to check out their activities way back from 1976 onwards. Since I am not a historian, I did not take notes. As I write to you more and more you will see that I have seen a lot. And I may be vague on location, reg. nos. etc but I will try give useful info, to the best of my knowledge/memory and no bragging, just facts even if not complete. That is very important!
So in link 423 DKG asked about Pranlal's PIII, I could add that he has 2, that is what I know and wrote. Probably he has three, I was not familiar with the one in link 422, and so the info builds up. Now I will give you two infos which are there in the thread but not liked up.
Please see link 445, second picture. Look closely. What could have been the colour of this car? It was maroon and black, just like the car on the petrol pump in Pune DKG was enquiring about. It is the same car. The owner at the time in Pune was indeed Mr. Dongre. He had owned a brewery "Doburg". His son was in college with me. This car was sold to Mr. Vohra (which one?, I know who) and he shifted the cars around in India, including Chennai. During one of these transport trips is got damaged, see the damage on the left side of the photo. Today this car is repaired and is in Indore.
About the Wraith, link 447 and 445, this Wraith was indeed Mr. Chatterjee's. He also owned MHC 707. Both these cars were entered by him in a vintage Rally in the 1970's. At that time MHC 707 was Oxford blue and the Wraith was pale green if memory is correct. At that time MHC 707 had Austin type rear tail lights. One fine day we heard that both cars were sold, probably because he shifted base or emigrated. The Wraith went to Singhania in Mumbai and now on to another owner. MHC 707 had disappeared and I was always trying unsuccessfully to find what happened to it. Now ofcourse we know where she is.
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Old 8th July 2008, 05:13   #452
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Default RRs in Mumbai

There is a series of photos of what I think are some of Pranlal Bhogilal's cars on an Indian travel site. Go to:

http://www.oktatabyebye.com/Picture-Gallery//

If this doesn't work go to Travel Advice, Destination / Hotel Review, Photos / Videos, Travel Buddies, Travelogues, Driving Directions: Oktatabyebye.com and type rolls royce into the search cell

There are two photos of Phantom III 3BT75, one photo (repeated) of 3BU82, plus a Phantom I, a Phantom II, the 1923 Silver Ghost with the Victoria replica body, and a yellowy-orange 20/25 (I think).

You can't copy the photos from that site, but you can enlarge each of them.

Enjoy.
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Old 8th July 2008, 10:07   #453
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Default Phantom III 3AX87

This car has been referred to recently in posts 222 and 231 in this thread, and includes a recent photo of the front of the car. I would love to see other photos of the car in India/Pakistan.

3AX87 left the Derby factory on 16 November 1936, fitted with engine B84Y, and with steering at the low F rake, raised 1 inch. It was set up for use in India.
The chassis was ordered by Barker & Co in late 1935, the first PIII ordered by one of the Indian Princes. It was delivered to them on 4 December 1936. Barker built a swept-tail saloon with division on the chassis, finished in black and silver. It was fitted with chrome-plated wheel discs, and had a spare wheel to each side. It was also fitted with a bullet-proof windscreen.
The car had been ordered by Major Sir Sadiq Mohammed Khan Abassi, the Nawab of Bahawalpur (30 September 1904 - 24 May 1966). He was the 12th Nawab, and succeeded before he was 2 years old, under a Regent; he took control in 1924, and was deposed in 1955.
The car was delivered on 5 May 1937 initially for use in England. Like a number of early Phantom IIIs it had clutch problems, and a new long-plate clutch was fitted in July 1937. On 15 September 1937 the car was shipped to Bombay.
It was featured in a Barker & Co advertisement in the magazine Country Life on June 12 1937 and in the news pages of the same magazine on July 24 1937.
In the early 1950s the car was sent back to England for restoration by Hooper and Co., along with the Nawab's 2-door Barker saloon on Bentley 3.5 litre chassis B32EF and his Jaguar Mark V (see accompanying photo); the Nawab also owned Bentley Mark VI B94KM.
The car is in Pakistan, owned by the grandson of the Nawab.

The first photo is an original from Barker, owned by me. The other is from the Hooper archive at the Science Museum Library, London.
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Classic Rolls Royces in India-3ax87.jpg  

Classic Rolls Royces in India-3ax87-bentley-jag.jpg  

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Old 8th July 2008, 12:08   #454
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The first photo is an original from Barker, owned by me. The other is from the Hooper archive at the Science Museum Library, London.
What gorgeous photographs! I cannot thank you enough for sharing these with us.
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Old 8th July 2008, 15:06   #455
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What a beauty! Thanks for sharing the pictures. I think the Nawab of Bahawalpur deserves a feature thread detailing not just his cars but any interesting anecdotes/palaces etc. From his taste in cars he seemed to have been quite fond of the finer things in life Perhaps our friend Karim who has the Ghost could do a special tribute?

The thought just crossed my mind that we should try to source pictures of the owners of these cars too. I think that's quite significant as part of its history. Any pictures showing the cars in use with respective owners would put things in perspective.

Sending a Jag, a Bentley, and a RR to have them redone in England, now that's some style!! Unlike the majority of the Maharajahs who either mothballed their cars after discontinuing their use or sold them, the Nawab was a connoisseur par excellence to still desire to have his cars refurbished in England after more than 2 decades of use. Fantastic

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Old 8th July 2008, 15:41   #456
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Fantastic pictures Steve! She does look very stately & handsome!
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Old 8th July 2008, 16:08   #457
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Great work Steve.

I am actually printing the pages as you are posting and saving as an old school type of scrap book. Should be quite nice when finished.

Any news of B94KM ? where is she now, or in what condition.
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Old 8th July 2008, 17:20   #458
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Originally Posted by karlosdeville View Post
A friend of mine took this picture for me when he visited a well known painting and restoration facility in Pune. I assume its a Silver Wraith/Silver Dawn. Unless it turns out to be an Austin Princess or thereabouts. Can anybody confirm?

@ Karlos, it is a RR, the body work was done at Navnit Thane, the only details i have are- The Chassis no:WVA20 and the Engine no is: W-105A, the original colour was supposed to be Royal Blue.. i guess i had posted the pics elsewhere, will post again if i get the pics..

Regards,
Mav!
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Old 8th July 2008, 20:32   #459
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Originally Posted by DKG View Post
What a beauty! Thanks for sharing the pictures. I think the Nawab of Bahawalpur deserves a feature thread detailing not just his cars but any interesting anecdotes/palaces etc. From his taste in cars he seemed to have been quite fond of the finer things in life Perhaps our friend Karim who has the Ghost could do a special tribute?

The thought just crossed my mind that we should try to source pictures of the owners of these cars too. I think that's quite significant as part of its history. Any pictures showing the cars in use with respective owners would put things in perspective.

Sending a Jag, a Bentley, and a RR to have them redone in England, now that's some style!! Unlike the majority of the Maharajahs who either mothballed their cars after discontinuing their use or sold them, the Nawab was a connoisseur par excellence to still desire to have his cars refurbished in England after more than 2 decades of use. Fantastic
The Bahawalpur Nawabs sure loved cars. When they signed up to Pakistan the agreement included the right to import a certain number of cars into Pakistan duty free every year.

Last I heard some of the palaces were now with the pakistan military and the scion of the Bahawalpur Nawabs had probelems getting access.
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Old 9th July 2008, 03:33   #460
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the Nawab also owned Bentley Mark VI B94KM.
The car is in Pakistan, owned by the grandson of the Nawab.
Thank you Steve for sharing your years/decades of research with those who are interested but are without the necessary resources, for whatever reasons, your photographs/history of each car are very educational to those sharing this interest.
Regarding B94KM, Karim, can you discover any information?
Also these W O Bentleys?

3 Litre
Chassis Eng Owner
269 272 1923 Aug Sir Victor Sassoon
816 923 1924 Oct 4 Seater Barker Rajah Sir Hari Singh
932 935 1925 April 4 Seater Gurney Nutting Maj. Alexander
1166 1181 1925 Aug Park Ward Maharajah of Patiala
1221 1231 1925 Dec 4 Seater Park Ward Maharajah of Patiala
(Long frame to Speed model specification)
LT1585 LT1583 1927 Jan Coupe Connaught Maharajah of Rajpipla
ML1514 ML1516 1927 July 4 Seater Vanden Plas Maharajah of Wankaner
(Vanden Plas body no. 1333 sporting 4 Seater Scratched Aluminium/Blue)

Oops, maybe this should be in the Bentley thread..

Last edited by Julian UK : 9th July 2008 at 03:35.
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Old 9th July 2008, 15:33   #461
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Default Phantom III 3AX147

This chassis was sent off test on 2 December 1936, fitted with engine N38N, and was set up for use in India. The chassis was sent to coachbuilder Gurney Nutting on 2 December. They built a streamlined saloon with division on the chassis, with body number 1750 to design 171. Bonnet louvres were carried through to the scuttle, and it had the spare wheel in the boot. There were two occasional seats.

The car was finished in silver over black, with chrome strips to the wings and chrome-plated wire wheels. The insides of the bonnet louvres were painted in blue. There were red and blue identification lights to the roof, and flag staffs to each side of the scuttle. The instrument dials were in blue with silver figures; the woodwork was in black with silver stringing. The upholstery in the front compartment was in black leather and blue cloth to the rear, with a blue mohair mat on the floor. The interior of the roof was recessed to give as much headroom as possible. The cost of the body was 850 pounds, and the total cost of the car was 2,700 pounds.
The car was ordered on 14 February 1936 by Allied Motors Ltd. in Bombay, through the owner's London agent J Shelford. The car was delivered on 6 February 1937, in India, with the registration number HS.3 with letters in silver on a blue background.
The owner was the Maharaja Holkar Bahadur of Indore (6 September 1908 - 6 December 1961); he was the 12th Maharaja who took the throne on 26 February 1926.
The Maharaja was a keen motorist; a Packard was traded in on the Phantom III for 5,250 rupees. He also owned three Derby Bentleys: 3.5 litres B82DG, a Vanden Plas tourer and B194FB, a Gurney Nutting coupe and 4.25 litre B11GP, a Gurney Nutting tourer. After the war he owned Silver Wraith WAB8, an H J Mulliner limousine. See also the scan from the Autocar of June 24 1938.
The car was reported derelict in India in 2005; it had been owned by Pesi Shroff in 1963, and registered MRW.6088.
The two photos of the car, taken in Bombay in 1937, are courtesy of the VSCC in England.
Attached Thumbnails
Classic Rolls Royces in India-3ax147-1.jpg  

Classic Rolls Royces in India-3ax147-2.jpg  

Classic Rolls Royces in India-indore.jpg  

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Old 9th July 2008, 20:31   #462
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The car was reported derelict in India in 2005; it had been owned by Pesi Shroff in 1963, and registered MRW.6088.
What an imposing sight the car is, under the Shivaji statue! A very stylish car indeed.

What is the current status and whereabouts of the car? Current pictures would be welcome too.

Cheers.
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Old 9th July 2008, 22:30   #463
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The owner was the Maharaja Holkar Bahadur of Indore
See also the scan from the Autocar of June 24 1938.
The article states he also owned a Hispano twelve (J12) I presume it never came to India. I have 3 Hispano-Suiza books but can find no mention of his name. Anyone heard of a V12 Hispano-Suiza anywhere?
Thanks to Steve and Harit for the photos/info.
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Old 10th July 2008, 07:32   #464
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Default Phantom III 3AX201

This next Phantom III in India was sent off test at Derby on 17 December 1936, fitted with engine L48P and high-rake steering. It was set up for use in India. The car had been ordered direct from Rolls-Royce on 27 July 1936, and the chassis was sent to Hooper by rail from Derby on the day it came off test.

Hooper & Co built a limousine on the chassis, to design 6746 and with body number 8747. It was a very luxurious car; some of its fittings included: front and rear sunroofs, dual side-mounted spare wheels in metal covers, chromed wheel discs, flagstaffs to the base of the mascot and to each front mudguard, hinged rear quarter windows, blue brocade upholstery to the rear (at a cost of 30 pounds), black leather to the front with waterproof covers, a footrest and two loose cushions in brocade. The interior fittings were all gold-plated (at a cost of 135 pounds); there was a special clock to the rear, automatic lights to the rear doors, the division panel contained a recess for a walking stick, and three shelves; the partition cabinet included a Thermos flask. The interior woodwork was in teak. It was painted light blue and black with a red picking out line to the body mouldings. The car cost a total of 2,975 pounds.

This luxury car was ordered by Maharaja Gaekwar Sir Sayajii Rao III of Baroda (10 March 1863 - 2 February 1939), the 11th Maharaja who succeeded on 27 May 1875. He had owned at least 10 other RRs: Silver Ghosts 60576, the Cocksoot limousine known as the Pearl of the East (which he bought from the Maharaja of Gwalior), 1741 (Barker landaulette), 1AB (Hooper landaulette), 60LB ( H J Mulliner landaulette) and 30EU (Barker landaulette); Phantom IIs 70WJ (Barker tourer) and 30SK (Windovers drophead coupe); 20/25HPs GAE3 (Kellner saloon) and GBJ71 (Thrupp & Maberly landaulette) and Wraith WXA37 (Park Ward saloon) - note how the Maharaja used many English (and a French) coachbuilders. GBJ71 was traded in on 3AX201 for 1,375 pounds.

The car was registered with London number DLN470, and was delivered to the Maharaja's driver on 15 March 1937, the Maharaja staying at the Dorchester Hotel. It is not known when the car was sent to India. It can be assumed that the car was taken over by his son in 1939. The Maharani owned Phantom III 3BU106 and the Crown Prince 3CP112 - these will be subject to later postings.

The car was shown in articles in English magazines The Tatler and The Illustrated London News, both on 24 April 1937.
The photos of the car below come from the Hooper archive at The Science Museum London, and unforunately as a totally derelict car in the past few years from a contact in India.
Attached Thumbnails
Classic Rolls Royces in India-3ax201.jpg  

Classic Rolls Royces in India-3ax201-derelict.jpg  


Last edited by Rehaan : 10th July 2008 at 10:24. Reason: Put in line breaks to ease readability.
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Old 10th July 2008, 10:59   #465
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Steve this is just so wonderful that you are sharing in detail the histories of all the PIII's in such detail. Perhaps some of the old timers around can add to what happened post the Maharajah/original owner and the history of the car since and its present condition.

I think all this should go into a book and get published. Could we all collaborate to do this for all the cars that came into India brandwise? I know its a mammoth task but TBHP could actually publish a book with all the data as it is compiled.

It could be called the History of Cars in India series. Ideally it should document as Steve does with what happened during the car's order, the special fittings etc and then the ownership from first owner to present, pictures during all the ownerships etc, stories related to the cars. It would be an amazing series. The scope of this endeavour would have to necessarily be collaborative and no one person can gather such a vast amount of data on all the premier brands. It may take a few years for us to do this but lets make a concerted effort and do this for the benefit of generations to come.

So we begin like this:

We need to add to what Steve has done in terms of the story following the import of the car by the original owner. How long the car remained with the first owner. Interesting anecdotes, modifications etc. The subsequent owners, pictures, and finally the present condition if it has survived.

The present structure of TBHP is purely archival. It is not user friendly and hence once the data is collated it can be printed as a series.

What say fellas?

PS Its just so sad like many other magnificent machines 3AX201 (ah interesting a roller with the number AX201!!) suffered such a horrid fate. I wonder if some of the cars that survive in pristine condition were born with a more fortunate destiny??

Last edited by DKG : 10th July 2008 at 11:03.
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