Go Back   Team-BHP > BHP India > Vintage Cars & Classics in India > Pre-War


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 26th March 2009, 00:02   #16
Distinguished - BHPian
 
harit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 3,953
Thanked: 2,723 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by S.B.Jatti View Post
Here are some photographs of 1929 Stutz, Model M, Vertical Eight Engine, 113 HP, 4 Passenger Speedster with Dual Cowls, Coach built by LeBaron on a 134Ĺ" Wheelbase. This car has 10,360 miles on the odometer and is a fabulous high speed runner. This fabulous beauty has been found and acquired by Mr.Diljeet Titus. According to me this is the find of the year if not the decade !!
Boy, am I glad that I am on this forum. At last I get to see the Stutz.
But this is certainly not the find of the year and also not a discovery by Mr. Titus.
I was told about this car by Bhalerao, the broker turned religious zealot turned religious zealot cum broker from Ahmedabad whom many would like to catch up with, in 1992!!!!
This car has been for sale for more than 10 years, very very expensive. When generally a Rolls was selling for 5L, this car was for 15L. So you can imagine why she was unsold all the while. But it is a fact that very few knew about her.
I had mentioned that she has a Jeep windshield, it does not seem to be the case but some part of the pillars is missing. This is the Gujrat car.
I do not want to take away anything from Mr. Titus or Mr. Jatti, but we should be as acurrate as possible when possible. And I know that I am sticking my neck out.
I believe that a Buick 1956 or so convertible has also been aquired, that would be a discovery for me.
About the restoration, my two bits. In a collection which is now focussing on upper end cars, the car will probably be restored to Indian Cartier show standards and I would understand the owner. Hopefully the restoration will be sympathetic keeping as much original as possible.
I have my doubts about the word "speedster" in the model description, does it fit? It is more like a dual cowl phaeton.
Never the less, this is an aquisition equivalent to the Minerva in that collection.

Last edited by harit : 26th March 2009 at 00:05.
harit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th March 2009, 10:39   #17
Senior - BHPian
 
wasif's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Abu Dhabi (for now)
Posts: 2,936
Thanked: 366 Times
Default

Hearty congrats to the new owner. This is a car that would find place on the lawns of Pebble Beach any day![/quote]

You are right DKG.

This car will find a place on the lawn of Pebble Beach if it is kept as it is, its patina retained as best as possible.

If it ends up going through a full scale restoration it will become just another beautifully restored Stutz, plenty of these around, but how many are there with their original paint,wiring, rubber beadings, glass and chrome around today.

It would be a shame to restore this car. Just a gentle refurbishment will keep this car priceless.

There is a similar unrestored 1919 Packard 8 in the Nethercutt Collection. It was even shown at Pebble Beach. Similarly there is the Model X with Jay Leno. Last year in Pakistan two cars fromt eh twenties, a Hupmobile and a Study, were aquired by a collector. They were in awsome original condition and the has had them cleaned, polished and has left them this way.

This would be the way to go for Mr.T and I hope he will feel the same.

BTW check out he dual spark plugs on the engine with twin coils and distributor cap with sixteen leads coming out. Just amazing. The screws on the carb look like they have never been opened. Is the odo reading of 10,567 accurate ?

Last edited by wasif : 26th March 2009 at 10:45.
wasif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th March 2009, 10:52   #18
Distinguished - BHPian
 
harit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 3,953
Thanked: 2,723 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by harit View Post
Boy, am I glad that I am on this forum. At last I get to see the Stutz.
But this is certainly not the find of the year and also not a discovery by Mr. Titus.
I have my doubts about the word "speedster" in the model description, does it fit? It is more like a dual cowl phaeton.
Never the less, this is an aquisition equivalent to the Minerva in that collection.
Have done some more digging into history.
I could gather that this car was indeed called a speedster, but twin cowl, not dual cowl. This seems to be a misnomer as we normally consider a speedster to be something like a Stutz Bearcat or a Mercer Raceabout.
Also, the 1st owner was the Maharaja of Baria. He bought it in London around 1929.
As regards who discovered, the car, have a good look at the pictures. See a gentleman walking in jeans. Then look at the place, vintage junk lying around.
And beware, there are others trying to claim this "discovery"!
harit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th March 2009, 10:58   #19
Senior - BHPian
 
wasif's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Abu Dhabi (for now)
Posts: 2,936
Thanked: 366 Times
Default

Does it matter who claims to have discovered it or who knew about it from a long time.

Its just that the current owner saw it could tell it was worth saving and probably paid a good price for it. His gain is every other collectors loss.

Lets not get carried away by the but's, who's and the why's and enjoy the WHAT
wasif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th March 2009, 11:33   #20
Distinguished - BHPian
 
harit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 3,953
Thanked: 2,723 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wasif View Post
Does it matter who claims to have discovered it or who knew about it from a long time.

Its just that the current owner saw it could tell it was worth saving and probably paid a good price for it. His gain is every other collectors loss.

Lets not get carried away by the but's, who's and the why's and enjoy the WHAT
Yes it does, for the sake of accuracy. If a tale is repeated too often, then after some time it becomes the truth. "Because it is mentioned in tbhp" will be proof of the untruth.
It is not the current owner who saw it and could tell that it is worth saving. That has already happened, the pictures were taken in a foremost restoration shop. It is just a matter of affordability, and here praise is due to the owner that he thought that it is worthy to his collection.
Again, one cannot say that his gain is every other collectors loss. Normally we should cut the suit according to the cloth. In short, affordability plays a key role.
Again, not to take away anything from the collector. He is an enthusiast and he is a nice person who shares with you his collection and he is approachable when you want to see his cars. And every collector has a right to aquire his stock in his own methods. How many collectors have fine cars and do not even allow anyone to see them? I could name quite a few.
When I mentioned that there are others who are trying to claim this discovery, there is a tendency by some guys to try to boast and make false claims to the guys in foreign magazines. One contributor to "discoveries" told thos guys that he has unearthed a Lincoln of the 1930's. That boast was made about 4/5 years ago. No such car has surfaced. At an event in Pune he told one German chap of cars he owned, figment of his imagination. I am sure that he reads this and I amtrying to preempt that from happening. False credits for discoveries are not helpful to anybody.
Nothing personal, thought I would explain why I felt that this should be mentioned.
I do not think that I got carried away! And see, I bothered to check on the correct name of the car.
harit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th March 2009, 11:52   #21
Senior - BHPian
 
hillram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 2,839
Thanked: 950 Times
Default

Im amazed by the steering wheel and superb controls in the era otself.
I m trying to compare to a moden F1 car steering in fact.
hillram is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th March 2009, 12:02   #22
Senior - BHPian
 
wasif's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Abu Dhabi (for now)
Posts: 2,936
Thanked: 366 Times
Default

Harith.

With all due respect I beg to disagree.

There are many people in India who think knowing about a certain car is knowledge that makes them superior to others and will not share the knowledge with others.

They will not buy the said car nor will let others know about it fearing that others would get their hands on it.

Once the car is actually sold they go oh I knew about it first. It doesn't matter.The fact remains that nobody, formost restorer of formost collector, wanted to place their money on a car in such an exceptional state. Going by the condition the car is in the pictures supplied I feel the asking price was definitely justified.

No amount of money would get you a car in this condition today anywhere in the world.

Its really not important who saw the car or who knew about the car. The important thing is that someone did something to save the car.

There are plenty of people who go around "discovering" cars but how many of them actually do something to save them ?

And regarding the research you did on the cars name please check my post no 72 in the top ten car thread. I was the first to mention that the car couldn't be called a speedster but a dual cowl phaeteon. I even posted pictures of the two to help people understand the difference.
wasif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th March 2009, 12:05   #23
Senior - BHPian
 
canonball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 1,466
Thanked: 188 Times
Default

Harit this is the famous indore restoration shop right?
canonball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th March 2009, 12:14   #24
DKG
Senior - BHPian
 
DKG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 3,706
Thanked: 928 Times
Default

Without taking names I hope I can clear some of the "mystery" here.

Very few people had heard about the existence of this car. Possibly no one knew exactly the location of the house it was in. Possibly only one person knew the owner and met him several times over the years. The car was never for sale. When finally the car was offered for sale it has been purchased.

End of story

What is important is its a precious car, looked after to the best of the former owner's ability for years and now in the hands of a very capable restorer and a collector who I am sure will not compromise the restoration in anyway. Further please rest assured that the concerned restorer recognises the importance of preservation and will not compromise the car in any way

Last edited by DKG : 26th March 2009 at 12:17.
DKG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th March 2009, 14:04   #25
Distinguished - BHPian
 
harit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 3,953
Thanked: 2,723 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wasif View Post
Harith.

With all due respect I beg to disagree.

There are many people in India who think knowing about a certain car is knowledge that makes them superior to others and will not share the knowledge with others.

They will not buy the said car nor will let others know about it fearing that others would get their hands on it.

Once the car is actually sold they go oh I knew about it first. It doesn't matter.The fact remains that nobody, formost restorer of formost collector, wanted to place their money on a car in such an exceptional state. Going by the condition the car is in the pictures supplied I feel the asking price was definitely justified.

No amount of money would get you a car in this condition today anywhere in the world.

Its really not important who saw the car or who knew about the car. The important thing is that someone did something to save the car.

There are plenty of people who go around "discovering" cars but how many of them actually do something to save them ?

And regarding the research you did on the cars name please check my post no 72 in the top ten car thread. I was the first to mention that the car couldn't be called a speedster but a dual cowl phaeteon. I even posted pictures of the two to help people understand the difference.
I beg to differ again with all due respect, and this time strongly.

You are generalising, I am refering only to this car Stutz.
The statement was "Discovery of the year by Mr. Titus". All I pointed out was that this was incorrect. And I said that I knew of the car such a long time ago, never claimed it as my discovery. And all these years I never boasted of knowing about a Stutz, "you do not, so I thumb my nose at you". Short and to the point, it was termed as a discovery which it was not. If you read my post on prewarcar.com about the Packard, I did not claim it to be a discovery as it was known to few, certainly not to all.

Was the car saved? Saved from what? Normally saved implied imminent destruction, or going into the ground or leaving the country. The car has not been saved, it has gone into a collection and may be displayed for all to see. As mentioned before, I am happy that she came out, photos are on the site for all including me to see for the first time. But saved?

About your comment on my research, now I think that you are getting either personal or atleast sarcastic. The word "speedster" IS a part of this cars model name!!! AND twin cowl, not dual cowl. My source is the guy who bought it first.

Now look closely at the car, the colour and the chrome. Does the colour look original? In this condition? I wonder. But the chrome looks original. Please note the difference in condition.

Did it evet cross you mind that when a car is discovered, and not disclosed to others, there may be a selfish motive of wanting to aquire the car, or the car is not for sale, or one is gathering money to buy the car, or one is sworn to secrecy not to reveal, etc.etc. and not for the feeling of being superior. This Stutz has been discovered ages ago, and discussed among a select group. Come on, who says you have to disclose to others only to have them seak behind you and snatch the car? I have seen that happening.

And I have not understood the post by DKG.

"Without taking names I hope I can clear some of the "mystery" here.

Very few people had heard about the existence of this car. Possibly no one knew exactly the location of the house it was in. Possibly only one person knew the owner and met him several times over the years. The car was never for sale. When finally the car was offered for sale it has been purchased.

End of story

See I have replaced his icon.
In this site we try to put up facts, and as I have mentioned in my intro, all what I say is subject to correction, i.e. when additional info is available. His short post has many inaccuracies.
Who says few people knew about this car? I can name atleast 25 old enthusiasts who knew about this car. It is new on this forum, sure but there are many who are not here. In fact now when I meet guys I ask them if they are on tbhp and ask them to look in and increase our info.
Exact location was known to many.
Broker told me first about it, because he wanted to increase my knowledge as it was not for sale
Asking price was always high, maybe not serious in selling but eventually it did sell for a high price. Just by chatting one weekend you cannot get the whole story. And perhaps if you listen a bit more, you will pick up more.
And how does the story end here? Now let us see if they will go as per your suggested colour scheme, or not. So the story will continue!!!

Boy I love this forum, so many angles, stories, opinions and information for all to share enjoy.
Nothing personal over here.

Perhaps Mr. Wasif and all can see this link, it is 2 years old but gives and idea about pricing, condition.
[COLOR=#800080]http://www.remarkablecars.com/ppads/showproduct.php/product/3205[/COLOR]
Always a pleasure to put up info. BTW, this link was just sent to me 2 minutes ago and so I had to edit this post as I thought it was worth putting up.

Cheers

Last edited by harit : 26th March 2009 at 14:08.
harit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th March 2009, 14:12   #26
DKG
Senior - BHPian
 
DKG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 3,706
Thanked: 928 Times
Default

Harit you obviously have a different story to tell. Others have had other stories to tell I am more inclined to believe the other stories as they seem to carry more merit ie the car was purchased

I am just glad the car will see better days.

Last edited by DKG : 26th March 2009 at 14:15.
DKG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th March 2009, 14:19   #27
Senior - BHPian
 
wasif's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Abu Dhabi (for now)
Posts: 2,936
Thanked: 366 Times
Default

Aw Harith.

It was nothing personal or sarcastic. Please dont get me wrong.

Its just that quibbling about who knew about the car or who discovered is trivial. Think about it.

Its one thing to mention it once to set the record straight but to keep on going on it is not cricket.

By saved it means saved from rotting away or being clositered away and will now get a new lease of life. This is the best part about possessions. People are mortal but possessions live on. They go to another person who can then enjoy them.

That reason you mentioned for not discussing this car is precisely what I had in mind. It was OK to know about this car but not ot buy it and not to let anyone else know about it or to buy it.

Don't you think this is unfair. Let whoever has the resources and the passion buy these cars in the interest of the preservation for future generations to enjoy.

This thought and feeling about cars being stolen from under ones nose only applies if one was trying to get the car for much less that its value.

If you are willing to pay the market price cars are always available.

Basically it looks like you were very keen on owning this car but someone else beat you to the punch. Tough luck Sir. Things like this are known to happen.

And in my opinion the car is saved as it now has an assured future.

Last edited by wasif : 26th March 2009 at 14:21.
wasif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th March 2009, 14:22   #28
BHPian
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 496
Thanked: 261 Times
Default

this is the Gujrat Blackhawk, it was offered to me many years ago, by the late Uday Kasliwal, who was in negosiation through Bhalerao. the price was very high, but that was possibly because the owner didnt really want to part with it, i think i met the owner with Uday at Jodhpur appartments in delhi, but my memory is sketchy on that.
awini is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th March 2009, 14:37   #29
Distinguished - BHPian
 
harit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 3,953
Thanked: 2,723 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
Harit you obviously have a different story to tell. Others have had other stories to tell I am more inclined to believe the other stories as they seem to carry more merit ie the car was purchased

I am just glad the car will see better days.
Let me clarify one thing Sir, I do not tell stories. For that we have others. You cannot catch me telling a story. And if I am proven wrong I will be the first to accept. That is why I say, "what I say is subject to correction".
It is freely for you to believe whoever you choose to, but no one could have told you that the car was not for sale before. See Awini's post, he sent it on his own, I did not PM him or ask him to support. There is no movement here, only to get the facts correctly.
I believe that the true facts are always there and they will stand upto any discussion/comments, sometimes only in due course.
By the way, what is the logic to only believe someone who has purchased a car? So Gandhi and Nehru have owned/sat in more cars than they would have seen. And owners do tell tales and deny facts. Do you know about the chopped top Rolls in Pune, when it first appeared the owner denied the chopped top part and was very very upset if you referred to him about this. Just ask around.
harit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th March 2009, 14:46   #30
DKG
Senior - BHPian
 
DKG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 3,706
Thanked: 928 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by harit View Post
no one could have told you that the car was not for sale before
Don't be so sure Harit

BTW Its not totally unheard of in India for cars to get offered for sale without owners consent

Last edited by DKG : 26th March 2009 at 14:56.
DKG is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Eagle E-Type Speedster..lovely! AyAn! The International Automotive Scene 9 5th June 2011 15:59
Radical new Mini Coupe speedster concept revealed sidindica The International Automotive Scene 16 27th August 2009 19:57
1934 Model 40 Special Speedster - The finest Ford Roadster ever built! john a milne The International Automotive Scene 5 14th March 2009 22:50
1929 Triumph seven C.S.ANANTH Pre-War 4 1st September 2008 23:05
Speedster Speedster Introduce yourself 8 23rd February 2005 21:58


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 20:32.

Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks