ICE for Zen Estilo

[ultimatechamp]

Hi friends
am very new here.I have a month old Zen Estilo Lxi,and want to ICE it up!!
One shop in Kolkata has shown me a grey market original(atleast he claims it to be)Pioneer TSA-6975,and he has asked Rs 7000 for it.I was originally looking for compos for front and coaxials for rear.But he suggested that two speakers facing each other,as is the custom arrangement in the car doors,is not good acoustically.He suggested me to go for a rear parcel shelf and fit the 6975s at the rear.I have read a few reviews of the Pio 6975 on the net,and they were all independent rave reviews.
I have a few questions now
1)My choice of music ranges from Old hindi numbers to techno to rock,so I dont want to spend millions on 2- compos and 3 amps and combinations like these,if you know what I mean?So would good quality coaxials for front and rear be sufficient?
2)I dont want a rear parcel tray.Had one in my previous car,luggage space becomes small.So whats the option?
3)As like millionswords,I want my car to be done up nbicely,he got lots of help from members in mumbai.Could members in Kolkata help me out with suggestions please?
3)One store here told me to go for polk coaxials,2 pairs for front and rear.Are the coaxials worth it?Because another person told me that in case of coaxial speakers,it doesnt really matter whether you are buying pioneer or kenwood or JBL,is this true?

Please help with my ice!!

[DerAlte]

Originally Posted by ultimatechamp

... I was originally looking for compos for front and coaxials for rear.But he suggested that two speakers facing each other,as is the custom arrangement in the car doors,is not good acoustically.He suggested me to go for a rear parcel shelf and fit the 6975s at the rear.

Of course he will say that - he wants you to buy the ovals.

On the contrary, the "2 speakers facing each other" create a quite satisfactory image in front, and the rear ovals are used to generally enhance the lower end - being better at low frequencies than circular ones in rear doors.

Originally Posted by ultimatechamp

I have read a few reviews of the Pio 6975 on the net,and they were all independent rave reviews.

No review can compare with your own ears and judgement - after all, you are the one who is going to listen to them. Audition those speakers, as also other brands such as Blaupunkt, JBL, Alpine, etc.

Originally Posted by ultimatechamp

1)... So would good quality coaxials for front and rear be sufficient?

Performance of Components in front is audibly better, not that coaxials are a no-no. If you listen to an installation with components, you will find out the difference. Audition the installations of TBHP members in Kolkata - they will gladly demo their systems to you.

Yes, coaxials will do for the rear.

Originally Posted by ultimatechamp

2)I dont want a rear parcel tray.Had one in my previous car,luggage space becomes small.So whats the option?

If you get an imaginative and skilled carpenter, he will be able to make shallow boxes that can be mounted on the sides of the boot

Originally Posted by ultimatechamp

3)One store here told me to go for polk coaxials,2 pairs for front and rear.Are the coaxials worth it?Because another person told me that in case of coaxial speakers,it doesnt really matter whether you are buying pioneer or kenwood or JBL,is this true?

Components are better at creating the audio image, but not that coaxials give a very poor reproduction.

No, there are perceptible differences between brands and models. There are always some whose sound you may not like, but another person may. Some are either not sensitive, or do not have a good low end, or both.

Polk is generally higher priced as compared to others, but it cannot be said that they are proportionately better.

[navin]

Originally Posted by ultimatechamp

Hi friends
am very new here.I have a month old Zen Estilo Lxi,:

Ofcourse the door locations are not ideal. Neither are dash or rear deck locations. In fact of the above 3 choices door locations are your best bet.

According o that shopkeeper (who did not like the door locations) your speakers should be where your steering wheel and glove comparments are and you should have no front seats. You should be sitting in the rear seat!

The Estilo door panels need damping.
I dont know what the stock locations in the Estilo are but since you sit in the front you should consider putting good component speakers in the front.
For the bass and rear fill there are 2 options since you dont want a parcel tray or sealed box sub.

I have seen many an install that has a pair of 6x9s in the rear hatch. I am not fond of this install as when the hatch is closed repeatedly the speakers get loose. If your installer can do a good job with this location it might allow you space for a small (8") sub or even 2 6x9s. (which can provide some bass and rear fill).

The other alternate for rear fill (no bass) can be the rear doors. I dont know if the Estilo has stock locations in the rear doors. But if it does use them.

Polk's db series are brighter than JBL's GTO and GT5 series and Blau's Thc/Odc series. So you should audition your speakes, amp and Hu before you buy.

Below is a sample budget. You can edit it as you see fit (it is much under your million ruppee budget )
Damping of front doors and hatch: 5K
HU: Pio, JVC, Blau, Kenwood etc.. with 3 pre out 7K
Amp: Blau, Kenwood, JBL, Pio etc.. 4 channel amp 7k
Speakers: JBL, Polk, Blau, etc.. 2 components and 2 coax speakers 9-12K
Small free air Subwoofer: 5K
Wires and Install: 4K

[ultimatechamp]

Originally Posted by DerAlte

the rear ovals are used to generally enhance the lower end - being better at low frequencies than circular ones in rear doors.

Does the last line mean,that I can go for 6x9 coaxials at the rear?The stock arrangement for Estilo is 6" for front doors,and 5" for rear doors!

Originally Posted by DerAlte

No review can compare with your own ears and judgement - after all, you are the one who is going to listen to them. Audition those speakers, as also other brands such as Blaupunkt, JBL, Alpine, etc.

Performance of Components in front is audibly better, not that coaxials are a no-no. If you listen to an installation with components, you will find out the difference. Audition the installations of TBHP members in Kolkata - they will gladly demo their systems to you.

I dont want Blaupunkt,Alpine in my car,nor Sony.It has to be Pioneer or something like Illusion,Polk or Hertz..dont know why though!Probably read so much here in this forum,I am biased now,lol!

Originally Posted by DerAlte

Yes, coaxials will do for the rear.
If you get an imaginative and skilled carpenter, he will be able to make shallow boxes that can be mounted on the sides of the boot
Components are better at creating the audio image, but not that coaxials give a very poor reproduction.

Where can I get one such carpenter in Kolkata?Please can any Kolkata members help me out on this?All the options seems to be in Mumbai mostly,even Delhi,Bangalore!

Originally Posted by DerAlte

Polk is generally higher priced as compared to others, but it cannot be said that they are proportionately better.

I drive my car 99% of the time,and alone..so would Polk be better than easily available brands of coaxials like JBL,Pioneer,etc?None of the shops are ready to audition them until and unless you give them a go ahead that its them who are going to fit it in my car!!I asked one store guy that acoustically which would be better with more thump--a JBL Bass tube or a good sub in an appropriate box?He said that once he is fitting it in my car,he will make me listen to both of them 'in the car' cause sound effects in store and in car vary greatly!Another store,who has a 'free demo of all systems' sign in the store said something like tell me which and when you want to fit,then we can give the trial for you!!

Thanks so much DerAlte for your suggestions.

[gunbir]

Originally Posted by ultimatechamp

Hi friends
am very new here.I have a month old Zen Estilo Lxi,and want to ICE it up!!
One shop in Kolkata has shown me a grey market original(atleast he claims it to be)Pioneer TSA-6975,and he has asked Rs 7000 for it.

Pioneer TS-6975 (if you mean the one in the pic I enclose) was a decent oval in its time. But even then it was sold for some 6k or so. I see no reason to pay that kind of money for it today. In fact, I still have a pair in dads car and they are average considering what I paid for them. They were the successor to the awesome Pioneer Ts-6988 ovals and I bought them based on my experience with the 88s. Unfortunately, its been downhill for Pioneer since then.

[ultimatechamp]

Originally Posted by navin

Ofcourse the door locations are not ideal. Neither are dash or rear deck locations. In fact of the above 3 choices door locations are your best bet.

Thanks a ton Navin bhai.The main no nos for stock door locations as told by these shopkeepers are as follows:
1)Water leakage through open or closed windows later on.
2)As I said earlier,acoustically not acceptable(this part is clear now,thanks)
3)Good quality speakers with big magnets wont fit there because of door thickness
4)It may hamper smooth functioning of power windows,especially after fitting tinted glass(llumar or garware icecool)

But in my opinion,the most important reason is that they themselves feel incompetent for the job!! I need real big time help from Kolkata team members who have done ICE in their car and are problem free(I know a guy who had ICE worth more than a lakh in his car,fitted from a reputed shop,in his lancer,but had to uninstall entire lot cause of botched up wiring and problems with SQ and dump them in his chauffeur driven old zen while he had to fit a new ICE in his lancer again from another store)

Originally Posted by navin

The Estilo door panels need damping.
I dont know what the stock locations in the Estilo are but since you sit in the front you should consider putting good component speakers in the front.

Which company is best suitable for damping jobs considering intense humid conditions of kolkata and bad pot holed roads leading to constant jarring of the car?I meant which company's damping material?
By the way Navin bhai,the stock locations of Estilo are two front doors and two rear doors.They are also disinclined as to fit compos in front,as I have to cut and modify front door panels.They say its not worth the trouble.

Originally Posted by navin

For the bass and rear fill there are 2 options since you dont want a parcel tray or sealed box sub.

I have seen many an install that has a pair of 6x9s in the rear hatch. I am not fond of this install as when the hatch is closed repeatedly the speakers get loose. If your installer can do a good job with this location it might allow you space for a small (8") sub or even 2 6x9s. (which can provide some bass and rear fill).

The other alternate for rear fill (no bass) can be the rear doors. I dont know if the Estilo has stock locations in the rear doors. But if it does use them.

I really dont want to give up the 'height' in the hatch,if you know what I mean,by fitting a parcel tray at the rear.So I had thought of two coaxials in the rear door and a sub in a appropriate box at the rear or a JBL Bass tube,fitted with a some kind of 'jack' arrangement so that if I need the space for a long trip,I can remove the sub myself from the rear,but the door speakers stays-on to keep me humming!

Originally Posted by navin

Polk's db series are brighter than JBL's GTO and GT5 series and Blau's Thc/Odc series. So you should audition your speakes, amp and Hu before you buy.

I am yet to know which Polk he was talking about.He said he is going to ring me on tuesday to let me know as well as availability of Stebel Nautilus Brio horn in Kolkata.Today is wednesday,he has not rang me yet!Guess,I will have to ring him up today.Does the Polk db series go well with Pioneer HUs?

Originally Posted by navin

it is much under your million ruppee budget

Oh!I wish!!

Originally Posted by navin

Damping of front doors and hatch: 5K
HU: Pio, JVC, Blau, Kenwood etc.. with 3 pre out 7K
Amp: Blau, Kenwood, JBL, Pio etc.. 4 channel amp 7k
Speakers: JBL, Polk, Blau, etc.. 2 components and 2 coax speakers 9-12K
Small free air Subwoofer: 5K
Wires and Install: 4K

What about damping of rear doors and other parts of inside?Maruti because of its quality of make,especially the doors tend to rattle a lot after every few months of driving( atleast that used to happen in my 800)

HU: I was initially keen on buying Pioneer 6950.Now am yet to decide between Pioneer DEH-4050 or DEH-5050.Is it true that,the 4050 or 5050 or even 6050 is sold as 4090 or 5090 with B&W.This is what a particular store told me that essentially they are the same,but their name varies because the 4050 etc are grey market products!!

Amp: I want a 4 channel amp for my 4 door speakers and later on a monoblock for the sub at the rear.Now again the stores(all of them!)tells me that 4 speakers can be run from the HU itself,I just need a 2 channel for the sub!And also if I fit coaxials all around,I dont need any amp,cause the SQ wont be that much that warrants an amp! Someone suggested to go for Sony amp with Pioneer HUs and JBL speakers!Would this mix n' match khitchdi combinations be worth the effort?

Speakers: I am checking on speakers,at the moment.Yet to audition the Polks.They asked for Rs 3900 for a pair of coaxials from Polk.Are these the db series at this price?They said coaxials from Polk are any day better than compos from Pioneer or JBL!.

Sub: Again suggestions needed on that.Do not want my car and rear windows to shake vigorously,lol!But would not mind a decent thump.

Many many thanks Navin Bhai for your time and suggestions,but I think I will keep on asking till I am satisfied.Guess I am very finicky.

[ultimatechamp]

I am absolutely smitten and overwhelmed by the quality of response from senior TBHP members.Thanks a zillion to all of you.

Originally Posted by gunbir

Pioneer TS-6975 (if you mean the one in the pic I enclose)

Yup,I do mean them,exactly.Spot on Gunbir bhai.

Originally Posted by gunbir

was a decent oval in its time. But even then it was sold for some 6k or so. I see no reason to pay that kind of money for it today.

How long back was that?

Originally Posted by gunbir

Unfortunately, its been downhill for Pioneer since then.

Do you mean these speakers?Or Pioneer speakers?Or Pioneer as a whole?

Many many thanks again.

[shuvd]

@ Ultimatechamp - Which shop(s) did you visit? If you want to listen to JBL/Kicker components, let me know.
For quality of install, I would look at Glix. Stuff there could be a bit overpriced but you can bargain. I've been going to Glix since 2001 for my ICE needs and I'm happy.
Caution: The owner has some favorite brands which keep on changing from time to time. He'll try to push his current favorite. Just be firm about your choice.

[ultimatechamp]

Originally Posted by shuvd

@ Ultimatechamp - Which shop(s) did you visit? If you want to listen to JBL/Kicker components, let me know.
For quality of install, I would look at Glix. Stuff there could be a bit overpriced but you can bargain. I've been going to Glix since 2001 for my ICE needs and I'm happy.
Caution: The owner has some favorite brands which keep on changing from time to time. He'll try to push his current favorite. Just be firm about your choice.

Thanks shuvd!I was hoping for your reply here desperately.I have seen your Skoda and read about your modifications from the Kolkata meet thread.Its awesome boss.Wish to have a look in one day,if you please.

Didnt know I could write the shop names here!The first shop was Alpine automobiles,just beside deshapriya park in south Kolkata.(Suggestions about fitting sony amp,pioneer HUs,and JBL speakers etc.)Its nearest to where I live.

Then I went to Glix and had a chat with Vinay Daga .He told me about Polks and also said to email him what I need and he can make permutation and combinations for my car.

Then I went to Xclusiv,beside Seimens office on Kasba connector of EM Bypass.They insisted on Pioneer TSA 6975,etc.

And Wheels on Purna Das Road.Kinda felt that they were 'more show than go'!

Thanks a ton for the reply.

[nura]

@ultimatechamp - You probably need to define some kind of a budget & then go through this http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/ask-gu...k-25k-30k.html (basic ICE - systems at various budgets -10K, 15K, 20K, 25K & 30K)

[ultimatechamp]

Originally Posted by nura

@ultimatechamp - You probably need to define some kind of a budget & then go through this http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/ask-gu...k-25k-30k.html (basic ICE - systems at various budgets -10K, 15K, 20K, 25K & 30K)

Thanks Nura.
I have gone through the thread by Navin ji which you suggested to do.
Actually,to be very honest,I dont have an exact budget!I want the very best that is available for my car and my taste.I dont want to go overboard with the ICE set up in my car,again saying that I dont want the 'just ok' sort of thing as well.One thing that bugs me is that availability of decent higher quality speakers here in Kolkata.

For HUs,I can go up to 10-15K,obviously has to be fully worth the price,and not just brand name.
Front speakers: If compos,then about 6-8K,but does the pricing of compos in front as quoted everywhere include cutting and modifying the front panels?Thats important IMO.
Rear speakers: Either door coaxials or 6x9s in rear MDF parcel tray.Thats fine,but what about the place to fit the sub then?If the resting place of the sub is below the MDF board,would I get the optimum performance of the sub?Or would it be bit muffled?By the way,my previous car had a MDF board at the hatch,and it was covered by some kind of coarse carpet-like cloth,is this good or bad?
Amps:I would be happy with a decent thump,which I would like to hear and people would take notice as well!Navin bhais post does not have too many options as regards to subs,if you notice.His advice is more towards powerful amps instead.

I guess I need to listen first to good quality ICE in members cars,before deciding on anything particular.Because listening to speakers in stores would in my opinion would not be a very bright idea.What do you suggest?

By the way,I want my ICE to be done in stages,kind of 'more I listen..more I feel ..more I put in', if youknow what I mean,rather than have Rs 50000 in my hand and a 'slam bam' job in 4 hrs.

[shuvc]

Originally Posted by ultimatechamp

By the way,I want my ICE to be done in stages,kind of 'more I listen..more I feel ..more I put in', if youknow what I mean,rather than have Rs 50000 in my hand and a 'slam bam' job in 4 hrs.

And it shows in your taking the time and effort to do the groundwork for your install.

What are the stock location sizes in the Estilo doors? What size will fit without any cutting?


I would probably have followed these steps.

Phase I
- Listen to a few setups and try to identify what type of sound appeals to you. Just try to gauge what you like.
- List out any non-sound related requirements/constraints such budget, convenience, time, equipment size/looks, space etc.
- Read up and listen where possible, to form an idea about the differences in sound between various brands/models that you would be considering
- Be brave. Find out what you can do yourself, and what would need an installer.
- Select the models for the following phases.

Phase II
3 pre-out HU
Front components
Damp front doors
4 channel (bridgeable) amp - use 2 channels to drive comps
Quality wiring

Phase III
10"/12" sub that can be decently driven by the bridged output of the amp
Damp boot lid

Phase IV
If you feel you still require it, get 2 coaxes for the rear doors, driven off the HU

The learning/listening process continues. Even after you 'complete' the setup, you could find that something else in another setup sounds better OR your tastes may have undergone a change.

Keep an open mind to accept such realisations and the motivation to go ahead with the changes and a fairly deep pocket to implement them.
Welcome to ICEland

[nura]

I think that is really great advice from @shuvc.
Here are a few things that I learnt from the TBHP gurus' posts in different threads.
Time correction feature in an HU is extremely important (From @navin)
For a price, it is possible to install anything in any car (From @gunbir)
One should also know when to stop (From @sam)
@ultimatechamp - The MDF parcel tray will not obstruct the bass from the sub.

[nishantgandhi]

Originally Posted by shuvc

Phase I
- Listen to a few setups and try to identify what type of sound appeals to you. Just try to gauge what you like.

This is probably most important. Leaving out the obvious untouchable brands (e.g. Sony, Fake Pioneer), dont be blinded by brands. Listen and decide what you find the best.

Originally Posted by shuvc

Phase IV
If you feel you still require it, get 2 coaxes for the rear doors, driven off the HU

Again, dont go by the traditional 4 speaker install. If you have a good front sound stage powered by components, you will rarely feel the need to get rear fills. A sub in the rear, at the same cost will probably serve the purpose better, IMHO.

Originally Posted by nura

Time correction feature in an HU is extremely important (From @navin)
For a price, it is possible to install anything in any car (From @gunbir)

Time correction feature (called Time Alignment) is no doubt important and useful, but is rarely available on most low-mid end HUs (i.e. under 10k)

I too agree with Gunbir. Set your budget, and get the best possible brand/quality within that budget.

[navin]

Phase 1 should be find an installer who is capable. A bad install can make a mess of good components. Flying Bong is from Calcutta I wold PM him.