Speakers: Components vs Coaxials

[low_bass_makker]

Originally Posted by NOTORIOUS

can we install a pair of components speakers in rear also

It depends on the personal taste and the choice of rear passengers.

[navin]

Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi

lol someone revived a very old thread!! It's over 2 years old!

Sam this forum resusitated me and I am over 40 years old. For me this place is a great stress buster.

[Rodeo]

Can i install four component speakers without amp? Will it sound better thann Coaxial speakers?

[low_bass_makker]

Originally Posted by Rodeo

Can i install four component speakers without amp? Will it sound better thann Coaxial speakers?

Yes you can but the output will be much better if you get a amp...ya the component will be better for the coax as there built is better than the coax

[santosh.s]

Originally Posted by navin

the qualites of a component will be better exploted by a good amp but many Hus can driev a component well if loud levels are not expected.

Navinji, I remember you mentioning somewhere else a couple of reasons for the need of amps-

1. Reliving HU of the load
2. Better damping (speaker control)

and then there is 3rd obvious reason of running out of power! But I suppose that is more for db draggers or show off guys. Also, the power requirement comes in more for subs, so assume a separate sub with its own amp, and a typical 80hz HPF for components @ 12db/octave. Considering sane levels of listening, what is the order of importance to be given to above 3 factors? By sane levels I mean we can easily have a conversation in background with little or no need to raise our voices!

[navin]

Originally Posted by santosh.s

1. Reliving HU of the load
2. Better damping (speaker control)
and then there is 3rd obvious reason of running out of power!
Considering sane levels of listening, what is the order of importance to be given to above 3 factors?

1. better electrical damping. it really improves bass definition.
2. relieving the HU
3. higher SPL

[santosh.s]

Originally Posted by navin

1. better electrical damping. it really improves bass definition.

I was actually wondering whether this happens due to electrical damping alone or limited undistorted power from HU also plays a role. Because if damping is the reason, then why doesn't it affect highs too? Do bass drivers rely more on electrical damping than tweeters or mids (which should be dominated by mechanical damping, in that case)?

Regarding amount of power, I am sure that bass drivers need much more power which only amps can provide. (is it right?)

[navin]

Originally Posted by santosh.s

I
Do bass drivers rely more on electrical damping than tweeters or mids (which should be dominated by mechanical damping, in that case)?
Regarding amount of power, I am sure that bass drivers need much more power which only amps can provide. (is it right?)

ok. Bass energy exceeds the energy in hte mids and hf. for example for (western) classical music 50% of the musical energy is below 300hz, only about 5% is above 5khz.

I dont know how you got mechanical damping involved here but it is really not related.

but you are right bass drivers have to produce much of the energy levels required and hene consume more power and hence are more affected by a lack of power.

[santosh.s]

Originally Posted by navin

I dont know how you got mechanical damping involved here but it is really not related.

It has to do with my understanding of Q/damping (which may be wrong, so please correct). As I understand, total Q should be optimally 0.707. Lesser means over damped system (subjective adjectives- lack of attack or transients) and more means resonant peak (associated subjective terms- uncontrolled cone movement, ringing, smeared notes). In case of speakers, which is essentially an electromechanical system, total Q is dependent on both electrical and mechanical Q's in such a way that if one is much lower than the other, lower one will dominate (Qtotal= Qm*Qe/(Qm+Qe)) and the higher one will be less of a concern. From this standpoint, I was thinking how subs would differ from tweeters and vice versa, Qe might dominate in one of them, whereas Qm may dominate in the other. A good reference: http://www.diyspeakers.net/Articles/...G%20FACTOR.pdf
(it has a nice table showing the effect of (as well as the lack of) electric damping factor on a typical driver)

If you think it is going out of scope here, we can take it to PMs or other suitable thread.

[tsk1979]

Santosh, please don't remind me of Q. It reminds me of my Control systems engineering course, which I almost flunked. :P. That said if you start discussing Qs here, its going to be a big big Q for many people!

[santosh.s]

ha ha... that's why I wish there was a technical section dedicated to ICE Regarding Q, I think you are underestimating (or I am overestimating) the number of bhpians who really understand it! At least for Navinji, I am sure that it is just "bahe haat ka khel"!

[DerAlte]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

That said if you start discussing Qs here, its going to be a big big Q for many people!

Heheheheh, I am in the Q too (pun intended): > 0.707! I am listening veeery intently!!! Keep it up, Santosh, Navin, you're doing just fine.

Originally Posted by tsk1979

It reminds me of my Control systems engineering course, which I almost flunked. :P

That reminds me of my situation with EMT (Despite Dr. S.P. Mathur's best intents to make us understand Electro-magnetic Theory. Oh man, my hair still goes into curls when I remember curls and divs of gobbledygook).

[navin]

Originally Posted by santosh.s

It has to do with my understanding of Q/damping (which may be wrong, so please correct).

Ouch, you are confusing speaker damping with amplifier damping. What you have stated is all related to the Q of the speaker. what i am talking about is damping factor (called damping in short) of amps.

Simply put damping factor tells you how good an amplifier is at controlling a speaker system, in electrical terms it is the ratio between the nominal load impedance (8 ohms for home audio, 4 ohms for car audio) and the source impedance of the amplifier.

Amplifiers with higher damping factor can provide varying amounts of current without changing the applied voltage to the speaker system hence with the better ther amp the more accurately the speaker will reproduce what the amplifier is trying to tell it to do.

more here
Damping Factor with Calculator
and
http://www.crownaudio.com/pdf/amps/damping_factor.pdf

[santosh.s]

Originally Posted by navin

Ouch, you are confusing speaker damping with amplifier damping. What you have stated is all related to the Q of the speaker. what i am talking about is damping factor (called damping in short) of amps.

Nope, I believe I am NOT confused. I think damping (both speaker or amp) and total Q are different ways to look at one and same thing. The contribution of amp's damping factor (more accurately its output impedance) is to increase electrical Qe of the speaker (and hence its total Q). In ideal case when amp has zero impedance, original Qe will remain unchanged. Even if Qe increases, it may not affect total Q much if Qm was dominating. And I suspect Qm might be dominating in tweeters while Qe in subs.

[DerAlte]

Originally Posted by santosh.s

Nope, I believe I am NOT confused. I think damping (both speaker or amp) and total Q are different ways to look at one and same thing. The contribution of amp's damping factor (more accurately its output impedance) is to increase electrical Qe of the speaker (and hence its total Q). In ideal case when amp has zero impedance, original Qe will remain unchanged. Even if Qe increases, it may not affect total Q much if Qm was dominating. And I suspect Qm might be dominating in tweeters while Qe in subs.

I think so too - if you were to make the electrical equivalent circuit of all the elements in the chain, it makes sense. Both of you are saying the same, but from different points of view - source and load.
I think Navin should be able to throw more light on the impedance matching part - that's normally the secret of the source not being loaded to preserve the signal fidelity (kind of like Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle ). Sir, remember the Impedance Matching Trafos in valve sets?