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Old 10th June 2014, 16:19   #31
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Default Re: Safety Features - Myths on costs debunked

Our population is so huge (which I believe is directly or indirectly responsible for any problem one can name) that any per-capita number becomes meaningless. Cars per 100 people, percentage of people owning phones, blah blah.

What we really should be looking at is how these add up with the infrastructure we have. A better statistic would be cars per km of motorable road (real, not on-paper roads). That would put us at the bottom of the table in most statistical analyses.
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Old 10th June 2014, 16:25   #32
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Default Re: Safety Features - Myths on costs debunked

Very very informative thread. Always admire this community for talking about safety first.

Now back to the discussion:

I remember Siddharth (from NDTV) had this episode where he talked to the bigwigs of the industry and what came out was that an Airbag costs less than 50 USD. Lets exaggerate the point and make it 100 USD; that still is about INR 6K - Which is dirt cheap when you compare it to the value it brings. And now this article confirms the same.

Everything point out to three facts:
1. Manufacturers want to keep the price as low as possible to entice the buyer
2. Manufacturers wont do anything about safety till the GOI forces (makes legislation) them to
3. GOI would not make such laws fearing backlash from the public

The absolute 'only' real option is public awareness and demanding that our cars even the basic-est of the basic cars have proper safety features like a sturdy body + ABS + Airbags. And let us pay a bit extra for the same. I do not think anyone in their right minds would mind paying 25k extra worth a bit of safety.

Do I believe that the common public would do so? Niet
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Old 10th June 2014, 16:54   #33
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Very nice thread.

I am totally for a govt legislation with regards to safety. Along with the legislation cars need to be crash tested and ratings given. This should be displayed on every car sold.
If they can make it mandatory for electronic companies to display via star ratings on their electricity consumption. Why not automobile and their crash test ratings?


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Old 10th June 2014, 20:44   #34
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Default Re: Safety Features - Myths on costs debunked

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slush_Traveller View Post
20,000 for airbags and abs ? I have heard they charge 80k to replace a set of deflated airbag.
Quote:
Originally Posted by avisidhu View Post
If that's truly the case, then why is it that getting Airbags retrofitted post any accident costs significantly more?
When an airbag deflates, the crash sensor, airbag module, dashboard panels, wiring kit, cable reel assembly and steering cover need to be replaced. This will easily add upto a lac + some labour charges to remove dashboard, steering assembly and fenders. An airbag module is hardly 5000-6000 if you check MGA prices.
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Old 11th June 2014, 04:46   #35
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Default Re: Safety Features - Myths on costs debunked

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Originally Posted by Hayek View Post
1. For example, after having been rear ended twice early in the morning when I stopped at signals, I don't stop at signals before 8 am or after 10 pm - I instead slow down (irrespective of whether the signal is green or red) and drive through carefully.
2. Similarly, I don't follow the 50 kmph limit on the Worli Bandra sea link or the 30 kmph limit on the JJ flyover - I stick to the normative limit of 80 and 60 respectively.
3.Agree that pedestrian safety is poor here - but that is because we have too many pedestrians.
1. In Chennai, even in peak hours, when the light just turns from green to red, the habit is to stick to the guy ahead and drive through. If you try to stop, the chances of getting rear ended is high.
2. My car driving experience since 1995 (Total 2 lakh plus kilometers - 1 lakh in city driving - Delhi/Mumbai/Chennai and rest 1 lakh in highways approx.- without a single incident, by God's grace) - (a)There are high way stretches where even 160 kmph plus is safe. In places where road/traffic/ pedestrian safety conditions do not permit even 50 kmph is unsafe. (b) One can speed up on highways with physical separators. I really do not understand the Worli Bandra link speed limit- why so low (50kmph-impractical). The elevated road (Hosur end to city) of Bangalore, which is narrower, has a speed limit of 80 kmph (but is equipped with cameras to catch offenders).
3. Unfortunately, the Indian roads/ drivers generally do not respect the rights of pedestrians. I still remember the Marine drive 20 years back - in dead mid night, drivers, even cabbies used to slow down when a pedestrian tries crossing the road. In case the driver rather wants to speed up, he will flash once and the message is understood by the pedestrian and he will not attempt crossing. Having said that, adherence to road rules and courtesies has deteriorated in Mumbai over the past years.

As regards the safety equipment - they are must but they are just aids. They do not give the liberty to drive unsafely. Unless the driver is habituated to safe practices, any amount of equipment will not suffice. To inculcate safe practices, the rules implementation system should be strict and should work all through the year.
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Old 11th June 2014, 09:07   #36
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Default Re: Safety Features - Myths on costs debunked

Let us not forget Electronic Stability Control (ESC) or Electronic Stability Program (ESP). The safety benefits of ESP/ESC are so great that many European and North American countries are asking for ESP as a standard feature in all cars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electr...bility_control

The best part is that the add-on cost of ESP is just $250 approximately on top of ABS. That is for a car that has ABS already installed, adding ESP would cost just another $250 more.
ESP is absolutely life saving in situations where one is trying swerve a car to avoid an accident.
IMHO ESP should be offered as a standard safety feature or at the least a optional add-on feature for all cars
Here is an excellent video that demonstrates the benefits of ABS, Traction Control and ESC - must watch
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Old 11th June 2014, 19:35   #37
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Default Re: Safety Features - Myths on costs debunked

IIRC Maruti used to charge a premium of 20-30K for Swift VXi ABS compared to normal VXi. That said i see the Indian car scene changing slowly.
If you see the cars in the price range of 7lac + most of them have started offering ABS/Airbag in Base +1 version. It would be good to see if these being offered as standard feature even in base variants.

Also i think the manufacturers are giving a potential buyer a miss. For example i would buy a car say Innova with Just Following features than Top spec V variant.
Features:
1.ABS
2.Dual Airbags.
3.Power Windows
4.Power Steering
5.Central locking
6.Rear Wiper
7.Front and rear AC

I believe there are a lot of customers who are wanting just above features in cars but just because these are available only in top end variants, they are just forced to buy one!!
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Old 11th June 2014, 21:26   #38
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Default Re: Safety Features - myths on costs debunked

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Originally Posted by Hayek View Post
Sorry, and we are probably going off topic, but anyone who says Bombay has too many cars does not know what he is talking about.

Some interesting stats here :

http://www.lta.gov.sg/content/dam/lt...Brief_2013.pdf

Singapore, the epitome of low car density and great public transport has 10 cars per 100 people (525,000 cars for 5.25 mm people) and each car runs about 18000 kms a year. Bombay has 700,000 cars for about 20 million people - a car density that is under 1/3rd that of Singapore. Further, while I could not get data to prove this, I am fairly certain that the average private car in Bombay runs less than 10,000 km per year. The problem is Bombay is the lack of good roads, not too many cars. As the city gets richer, the number of cars will at least triple - and we have to plan for that.

Planning better roads with appropriate pedestrian facilities will be costly, but the cost is well worth it if we place a value on lives saved.
This stat is slightly misleading, as in Singapore majority of the vehicles are passenger cars. So about 64% of the 969,910 are cars. And when you talk about population there are 1,796 vehicles per 10,000 people.

In Mumbai cars (721,000) only make up 35% of the total vehicle population, which is around 21 lakhs (lots of 2-3 wheeler and other vehicles). Now the vehicle density becomes 1,630 per 10,000 people (only Mumbai city and not metropolitan area), which is very much inline with Singapore.

The real problem with India in terms of road safety is our society and culture. Do not blame anything else or anyone but ourselves for this. I might take some stick for telling this, but as a society we have total disregard for safety, orderliness, laws and human life. I've driven in 5 continents, worked and lived in 3 and never seen a worse place to drive. Yes, part of this is because of poor governance, roads, infrastructure, illiteracy etc. but main culprit in almost all cases is a human being with complete disregard for others.
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Old 12th June 2014, 00:18   #39
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Default Re: Safety Features - Myths on costs debunked

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samba View Post
Sir,
For you i will suggest just get the things done still if it voids the warranty. As safety comes first.
Sorry, but I don't see why customers have to choose between warranty and life saving features.
I think add on features in cars can be of two types, basic safety and showy/luxury after market fitments respectively.
For the basic safety features, customers should be allowed after market fitments (from authorized service centres) without having to lose warranty.
For the luxury or showy after market fitments, existing policy is fine.
Quote:
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Here the Alto k10 is considered as an entry level hatch and is priced below 4 lakhs on road. Now if they give air bag, rear defogger , abs or other safety features the cars price will be up by a lakh and will land up in the swift territory. So i bet then 90% people will buy the swift (without safety feature) barring the K10(with safety features). Thats the sole reason they do not provide these in a entry level hatch back. Just for example Maruti has given driver side air bag for the Alto 800 Vxi. But how many Vxi do we see? Hardly 5% of the Alto 800 are vxi. Rest all settles with the Lx or the Lxi. With the price of Alto 800 Vxi people opt for the Wagon R or Celerio or other products in that price range.

In India before we criticize the manufacturer we have to increase the safety awareness in our general public first. Manufacturer's are business persons and they will definitely take advantage of the weak point of their customers. Our government has to be strict. When common public is not aware of safety the Indian Government should take up the matter and make rules like cars with minimum safety features should be made mandatory.
Completely agree that the lowest starting price is a USP that generates huge customer attention in India and helps a lot in sales.
Even though the people can be fool, the government has to think of those fools too and take decisions for them if they are not smart enough to understand their well being. Hence I think its completely justified for the government to impose minimum safety requirements in cars (ABS+Airbags).

If the fooled customers get too agitated because of the resultant 20-25k price rise, we should still not let the smart customers suffer. And hence regulators can try and look at allowing safety-equipment add-on in cars from authorized service centres at least. That should NOT cause warranty to be void.
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Old 12th June 2014, 14:55   #40
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That's an excellent piece of information wilful . The first thing we get in mind when adding ABS and Airbag is cost. Companies provide them in only higher variants.

And the amount of 20,000 as mentioned seems OK if wholesale rates are considered but no car dealer will fix your airbag for this amount.

In a nation where every year road accidents take more lives than riots or even war, why can't government abolish all the taxes on life saving equipment such as ABS and airbags and make them compulsory in every car. Once the production will increase, rates will also come down.
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Old 18th June 2014, 14:33   #41
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Can an ABS be retrofitted into a non-ABS car?

If the airbags can be reinstalled after an accident along with all the wiring and sensors, I get a feeling that customers who could not buy an airbag version earlier, can it be done post purchase? Again in a non-airbag version?

The new Dzire VDI costs 8.XXL onroad in Bangalore, but neither has ABS nor airbags. What options do people who brought these have?
ZDI was 1L more than VDI, so as with me, it may have been beyond budget.
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Old 18th June 2014, 14:42   #42
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Default Re: Safety Features - Myths on costs debunked

Quote:
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Can an ABS be retrofitted into a non-ABS car?

If the airbags can be reinstalled after an accident along with all the wiring and sensors, I get a feeling that customers who could not buy an airbag version earlier, can it be done post purchase? Again in a non-airbag version?

The new Dzire VDI costs 8.XXL onroad in Bangalore, but neither has ABS nor airbags. What options do people who brought these have?
ZDI was 1L more than VDI, so as with me, it may have been beyond budget.
1. ABS modulator needs a bracket
2. ECU part# is different as it has additional instructions for ABS/Airbag. Generally speaking ECU is not easily flash upgradable for common masses.
3. Wiring harness is very expensive and ideally manufacturers replace the whole harness and simply not pull out wires like most of the audio and light installers do.
4. Dashboard that support airbags are usually converted to glove boxes. Replacing just the membrane that fits in that cavity - I can't think of it.

A good place to start this research is spare parts manual, where one can review the part number differences in both models. Though technically not impossible, it would boil down to small screws, brackets, ECU change, wiring harness, new fuse box/hack to connect to wiring harness, new instrument cluster (If the stock does not have lights for the same).

Last edited by devsoftech : 18th June 2014 at 14:43.
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Old 19th June 2014, 11:24   #43
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When an airbag deflates, the crash sensor, airbag module, dashboard panels, wiring kit, cable reel assembly and steering cover need to be replaced. This will easily add upto a lac + some labour charges to remove dashboard, steering assembly and fenders. An airbag module is hardly 5000-6000 if you check MGA prices.
That's a bit to general a statement.
Obviously you do need to replace the airbar and the dashboard/steering wheel covers.

On most systems the airbag module locks itself after a crash in order to protect the data integrity. In most cases you can just (have) the module unlocked. Any good repair centre should have the knowledge and the equipment to do so. There is no need to replace the wiring kit or anything else, unless damaged. If you have belt tensioners, they might need to be overhauled. In the past some manufacturers suggested replacing belts altogehter after an accident, but I don't think think that happens as a universal rule anymore, only the (pre) tensiors as they can be used only once. (At least the pyrotechnic ones).

To be more precise, car manufacturers have very specific instructions on what to replace after a crash and it can vary a bit from car to car and also it might depend a bit on the sort of crash I guess.

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Old 19th June 2014, 11:44   #44
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I had visited an automobile factory in India. They told me they're making these vehicles 'specifically' for India. I did notice most of the parts were from China. Though cannon blindly say Chinese products are inferior, but because of their statement "specifically for India" gives me jitters down the spine considering the quality.
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Old 19th June 2014, 12:59   #45
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Default Re: Safety Features - Myths on costs debunked

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Originally Posted by nitinbose View Post
I had visited an automobile factory in India. They told me they're making these vehicles 'specifically' for India. I did notice most of the parts were from China. Though cannon blindly say Chinese products are inferior, but because of their statement "specifically for India" gives me jitters down the spine considering the quality.
Specifically for India is a common practice, and thats where probably the safety compromises come in.
Can you please name the automobile factory?
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