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Old 14th December 2017, 01:35   #16
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Default re: Fiat Punto, the first car ever to receive Zero Stars in the Euro NCAP

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Originally Posted by vibbs View Post
On another note, does this put a shadow on retaining your 5 year old car? The market moves quickly. Is it worthwhile to upgrade to a 'new' car just for the newer and better safety features if not anything else?
Market doesn't move quickly, but is made to move quickly when the law requires it to. Like it is happening in Europe.

If the budget allows to upgrade to a model thats either tested safe, or sells in a similar configuration as the international variants - then by all means - Yes. It makes perfect sense.

However - Currently in our country, its just a matter of guess work and nothing more if you buy most cars below a 15L budget, except a couple of exceptions like the Polo or Etios. Only real hope is that the crash tests are made mandatory soon, but it looks like all we would eventually get is diluted rules. Anyways, something better than nothing.

Last edited by CrAzY dRiVeR : 14th December 2017 at 01:38.
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Old 14th December 2017, 01:47   #17
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Default re: Fiat Punto, the first car ever to receive Zero Stars in the Euro NCAP

I think quite a few of us have an incorrect understanding of how Safe Cars look. We often judge and incorrectly perceive a cars strength based on how it looks and feels (Flimsy looking vs built like a tank. Modern day cars are designed to pass the impact around the passenger cabin and hence will look much worse than a car built without any crumple zones. So a crumbled looking car will protect its occupants better than a car which looks less damaged after a similar impact.

So a current day Swift will most likely protect the occupants better than a Premier Padmini which most of us think appears stronger.

Having said that, I too agree that the zero rating is probably due to the Punto being an old platform which hasn't been substantially upgraded and most cars of that age will probably end with similar scores.
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Old 14th December 2017, 07:13   #18
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As a past Fiat owner, I am shocked by the results of this test. I imagine a similar result for the Linea too.

Structurally, the car is sound. It is whats on the inside that seem to cause more harm to the passengers. The poor design of the dashboard and seats. I bet poor ergonomics are one of those things.

If anyone has ever seen a Linea or a Punto stripped, you will find impact absorption materials between the bumper and chassis or sub frame and again between the front fender and front doors. These are materials you will not find on any car sold at this price point. It is possible VW use this too, being European. The last time I saw such materials being used was on a Ford Escort. The entire bumper was made out of some foam material.

The car on test does not appear to have adjustable seat belts too. This is important. We got those even on the base variant of the Punto/Linea.

Sad though. To me, this car felt safe and secure in every way. To be honest, I still feel like owning one even after I know the car is disaster when it comes to safety.

With this news now out, I bet that's the end of the road for Fiat in India atleast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
The version with airbags should score better unless the chasis integrity has been compromised for India.
Moderators. Please merge with post #14.

The kerb weight was definitely not a ton for the Punto in India. I doubt if they compromised on anything at all. To me it looks like we got a safer model than what NCAP have. Off course, this ain't going to change the tests results all that much.

Last edited by ajmat : 14th December 2017 at 09:26.
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Old 14th December 2017, 08:00   #19
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Default re: Fiat Punto, the first car ever to receive Zero Stars in the Euro NCAP

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Originally Posted by Technocrat View Post
Having said that, I too agree that the zero rating is probably due to the Punto being an old platform which hasn't been substantially upgraded and most cars of that age will probably end with similar scores.
But the problem here is almost all manufacturers have upgraded their cars with new models and NCAP tested ( SWIFT/ POLO/ FORD KA+, etc.).

FIAT Punto is still sold in EU and hence NCAP has done a re-assessment to conform to current EURO NCAP standards.

Fiat Punto, the first car ever to receive Zero Stars in the Euro NCAP-fca.jpg

Last edited by volkman10 : 14th December 2017 at 08:03.
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Old 14th December 2017, 08:01   #20
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Default re: Fiat Punto, the first car ever to receive Zero Stars in the Euro NCAP

The Punto does well for a 12 year old car! The body shell looks good in all tests except for side impact which is a vulnerability for many cars out there unless you got an extremely smart system like in the new A8. I really didn't like the way the dummy's head hit the window sill and broke the glass in the Punto.

This is age catching up with the Punto and I would be very surprised if FCA doesn't pull the car off European markets (at the very least) because of this.

Their statement also points to that.

Quote:
A Fiat spokesman said: “Safety is of the utmost importance to the FCA group. When Punto was launched 12 years ago, it was the first 5* EURO NCAP car in its class. The importance of safety to the FCA group is demonstrated by the number of new models achieving 5*, for example Alfa Romeo Giulia, Alfa Romeo Stelvio and the Jeep Compass.”
No point in investing further on that platform. But that will not be easy for Fiat in the EU at least.

I was surprised to see this - the Punto sold an average of 4300 units each month this year. And that is amazing! The sales should take a hit following this test. Unlike our market, people take safety very seriously in matured markets.
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Old 14th December 2017, 08:24   #21
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Default re: Fiat Punto, the first car ever to receive Zero Stars in the Euro NCAP

The rating is bad, but that’s pretty much expected of an old model with no upgrades whatsoever to align with the latest Euro NCAP parameters. If something like a 5th generation VW Jetta (which was considered safe back in its time) is NCAP tested now, it could come out with similar results.
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Old 14th December 2017, 08:47   #22
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Default Re: Fiat Grande Punto : Test Drive & Review

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Originally Posted by volkman10 View Post
2017 Fiat Punto EURO NCAP Tested,

Fiat Punto scores first-ever zero-star NCAP safety rating

The Punto – first introduced in 2005 – was re-examined as part of Euro NCAP’s regular reassessment of vehicles.
This is certainly a bad news for buyers across regions. Punto seems to be now at par with Alto or KWID (for a reader) in terms of safety rating. Though in the video, the passenger shell looks to be intact in almost all cases !

It is equally true that FCA has not done much to the car since its launch in 2005; at that time it was the first 5 star rated "super mini". Protocols and procedures have changed and its is important for FIAT to either take it off the production or address the safety related issues.

Safety is the first and last word, even before reliability.

Last edited by i74js : 14th December 2017 at 08:49.
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Old 14th December 2017, 09:20   #23
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Red face re: Fiat Punto, the first car ever to receive Zero Stars in the Euro NCAP

Indeed it is sad to know that the most safe car on the Indian roads as of now has been kind of de-rated to the most unsafe car. Maybe this was coming due to the known fact that not much engineering resurrections have gone into the model to retain the most safe car tag. Actually the shell over the past decade for the Punto hasn't changed at all, so structurally I assume it still retains the strength test ratings. It is now the inside gadgetry which is going to decide how safe a car is.

In spite of whatever ratings the car gets, the minuscule population which even thinks of buying a Fiat car will still continue to do so since Fiat cars are bought with heart and not with head.
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Old 14th December 2017, 10:14   #24
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Default re: Fiat Punto, the first car ever to receive Zero Stars in the Euro NCAP

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Originally Posted by Dr.Naren View Post
Correct. But some points are very serious. Let me quote them.

Quote:
Protection of the passenger's chest was rated as marginal, based on dummy
readings of compression

Not good!

Quote:
In the full-width rigid barrier test, protection of the chest of the rear passenger was weak, and that of the neck was marginal
Again critical human body parts have poor protection!

Quote:
Tests on the front seats and head restraints demonstrated poor whiplash protection in the event of a rear-end collision.
Not good to hear again. This could have been better, a very serious concern indeed.

The detailed report has mentioned poor protection for adult (51%) and child (43%) occupants too. The norms are very strict now and you get more stars for features like radar based brake assist.
Valid points. To put things into perspective - Lets compare those points you have mentioned with a modern hatchback. The 2017 Suzuki Swift (European) which got 3 stars in the Euro NCAP. They said and i qoute -

Fiat Punto, the first car ever to receive Zero Stars in the Euro NCAP-screenshot_20171214095934.png

Quote:
In the full-width rigid barrier test, protection of the chest was marginal, both for the
driver and the rear seat passenger. Otherwise, protection of critical body areas was rated a good or adequate.

Tests on the front seats and head restraints demonstrated good protection against whiplash injuries in the event of a rear-end collision.
However, a geometric assessment of the rear seats indicated poor whiplash protection for occupants in those seating positions.

In the frontal offset test, readings from the 6 year dummy indicated poor chest protection and weak protection of the neck.
Primary reason for the 51% score of the Punto is the impact on the thighs are femur being rated as poor, and not due to critical areas like the head and the chest. Anyways, would have qualified for a 2 star rating without the missing seat belt reminder. Even a modern European car like the Swift comes with not much improvement in those aspects. And let's not even start talking about their compromised Indian version as tested by Global NCAP.

Leaving AOP aside, whiplash for the driver is disconcerting. Anyways, the platform is just too old to be sold as new in 2018.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Technocrat View Post
Having said that, I too agree that the zero rating is probably due to the Punto being an old platform which hasn't been substantially upgraded and most cars of that age will probably end with similar scores.
Quote:
Originally Posted by deetjohn View Post
The Punto does well for a 12 year old car!

This is age catching up with the Punto and I would be very surprised if FCA doesn't pull the car off European markets (at the very least) because of this.
Sergio has been a very poor CEO in this aspect. Cant think of many other cars (except some SUVs) which had such a long life span. 5-6 years itself is considered too much in the international market and Sergio dragged it for 12!

Infact the current European Punto even looks like the first generation once again making it look and feel even more outdated than ever!
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Old 14th December 2017, 10:30   #25
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Default re: Fiat Punto, the first car ever to receive Zero Stars in the Euro NCAP

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Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
The reason for awarding capped at zero stars was because of a missing seatbelt reminder warning which gave it zero for an entire category of safety assist systems as per the new Euro NCAP rules. The chasis was actually stable under tests.

Its not the case with other zero star cases we've seen earlier (made famous by Global NCAP, not Euro NCAP) where the dummy readings were bad (and the person would surely die) and hence given zero. And the structure was also found unstable for some of those cars. .
Thank you for sharing this explanation.
Not many of us read the complete report and get carried away by just the rating. Like you have pointed out correctly there are many cars which will probably be rated in negative, if there was a provision to give such a rating. In comparison with those cars, the Punto is obviously a much safer choice, given that the same car was rated much better some time back & its rating has come down only because the regulations have changed and the car hasn't been updated.

Features like Autonomous emergency braking add another star to the car's rating, but imagine driving with this feature on, in any of our major cities during peak hour traffic. So just going by Euro NCAP star rating, without reading into the full report doesn't make any logical sense for us.

In my opinion, most of the general public is not aware / consider these ratings, there are very few of them who actually look at the ratings and within that few, only a small percentage reads the complete report to understand what is the actual outcome of the test. Unless we have a mandatory rating system, which is relevant to our market and stringent enough to make sure that occupant safety is not compromised, we will probably have more cars which are built to a cost, without any consideration for occupant / pedestrian safety.
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Old 14th December 2017, 11:01   #26
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Default Re: Fiat Punto, the first car ever to receive Zero Stars in the Euro NCAP

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Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
An eye opener to read the reports before reacting just based on the star ratings. Lost count of the number of times (for various cars) that I've mentioned this on Team bhp.
As I mentioned, I was not reacting just by reading the post here. I had actually read the review online before posting here and am aware that base variants do get tested.

Last edited by Aditya : 14th December 2017 at 11:28. Reason: Fixing quote tag
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Old 14th December 2017, 11:19   #27
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Default Re: Fiat Punto, the first car ever to receive Zero Stars in the Euro NCAP

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Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
Valid points. To put things into perspective - Lets compare those points you have mentioned with a modern hatchback. The 2017 Suzuki Swift (European) which got 3 stars in the Euro NCAP.
Since you have got "Suzuki Swift" for comparison, let me post the overall protection offered as per Euro NCAP.
Fiat Punto, the first car ever to receive Zero Stars in the Euro NCAP-img_20171214_105811.png
Fiat Punto, the first car ever to receive Zero Stars in the Euro NCAP-img_20171214_105843.png

Suzuki Swift is much lighter car (say around 200 kgs in this case) and still got better protection rating for passengers. This newer chassis did score much better than decade old chassis of Punto. Swift had offered more than 80 percent protection to the adult occupants.

Quote:
Primary reason for the 51% score of the Punto is the impact on the thighs are femur being rated as poor, and not due to critical areas like the head and the chest.
Femur is the longest bone in our body and there are multiple complications if the fracture is bad. Not to be taken lightly. Punto did not offer good protection even for chest, neck etc. No wonder if scored only 51 percent against 83 percent of Swift in front impact tests.

Good that you brought in swift for comparison . This just helps me to make the point clear that heavily build, stable chassis etc doesn't mean the car is safe. A swift with much lighter build did score better than a heavier Punto. Due to new strict norms, manufacturers constantly improve the design to offer better protection for occupants. New design Fiat cars also performed much better than decade old chassis Punto.

The lower models of Punto don't even get airbags in India. Maruti has made them standard in all Nexa cars. Anyways FCA is not interested in this Punto platform anymore in India.

Last edited by Dr.Naren : 14th December 2017 at 11:32.
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Old 14th December 2017, 11:28   #28
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Default Re: Fiat Punto, the first car ever to receive Zero Stars in the Euro NCAP

I feel we are partly to take the blame. How many of us Indians actually value our own lives? We keep complaining that in India human life has no value. And we (I mean the majority of the car buyers) go and decide a car on how it looks, what features (not safety, but touchscreen, sunroof etc) it has and how cheap it will be to maintain and FE. These are to be considered for sure, but safety should be the utmost criteria, especially in India, looking at how our roads are and the millions and millions of morons on the road. Unless we ask for it, the majority of the car manufacturers will not give us the same unless the govt forces them too.
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Old 14th December 2017, 12:19   #29
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Default Re: Fiat Punto, the first car ever to receive Zero Stars in the Euro NCAP

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Originally Posted by Dr.Naren View Post

Good that you brought in swift for comparison . This just helps me to make the point clear that heavily build, stable chassis etc doesn't mean the car is safe. A swift with much lighter build did score better than a heavier Punto. Due to new strict norms, manufacturers constantly improve the design to offer better protection for occupants. New design Fiat cars also performed much better than decade old chassis Punto.

The lower models of Punto don't even get airbags in India. Maruti has made them standard in all Nexa cars. Anyways FCA is not interested in this Punto platform anymore in India.
This should be an eye opener, as many believe heavier/bigger the car, the safer it is. Today a lot of stuff go into making a car safer like better design,materials used, active/passive safety equipment etc. 12 years is a long time and a decade old car stands no chance against the current crop of cars w.t.to safety.
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Old 14th December 2017, 12:25   #30
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Default Re: Fiat Punto, the first car ever to receive Zero Stars in the Euro NCAP

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Originally Posted by PrideRed View Post
This should be an eye opener, as many believe heavier/bigger the car, the safer it is. Today a lot of stuff go into making a car safer like better design,materials used, active/passive safety equipment etc. 12 years is a long time and a decade old car stands no chance against the current crop of cars w.t.to safety.
Exactly, this is what I was trying to say multiple times on Team BHP. Good build, heavy car, thud on closing doors etc etc FEEL good and we should not wrongly assume that these cars are more safer. Another big blunder is comparing post accident pics and comment on safety .
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