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Old 19th December 2017, 11:16   #46
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Default re: Government to take strict action against bull bars & crash guards

Over the last few days, since the notification was made available, I have noticed sporadic instances of resistance and people coming up with stereotypical justifications. Now, let me first submit that I have always been a strong opposer of Bull bars. I knew they were illegal fitments and in fact have raised my voice at many forums regarding the same. Having said that, we as a nation, have always been averse to change. We as a nation have always needed to be coerced into following perfectly understandable laws. Thus, the resistance is not totally unexpected. I will try to address a few of the concerns here :

1. Livelihood of people - Luckily, for people engaged in the manufacture of these stainless steel Bars/contraptions, they already have the equipment to make many different SS items which are in demand in the market. Thus, I believe, that no major harm will fall upon these manufacturers or their employees. They can make railings for balconies and staircases for example. They already do that. As for the accessories shops, the rate at which they fleece customers on electronics, I do not think a Bull Bar is as profitable anyway. Especially, as it eats up considerable man power and work hours to install and do not carry obnoxious price tags as some head units and speakers.

2. Scratch/dent by errant bikers - I know my answer to this is very rude. I believe, if you are cost conscious about a bumper touch up/replacement job once a year, you might as well sell your car and buy a bicycle. Nowadays, most of us use zero depreciation insurance policies making these minor repair jobs even easier for the pocket.(yes, come at me with your NCB rants now)

3. Sense of added safety : Most drivers using bull bars are generally not very confident about (a) The dimension of their vehicle (b) Their own capability as a driver. Although they will cite the excuse of others bumping into them, but deep inside, it is their fear of bumping into someone or something. More than road hazards, it is the urge to protect your vehicle from being dented by one's own mistake. When they cite "safety" as the reason, they actually mean "apprehension". It doesn't take a genius to know that these things are not safe in the first place.

Get rid of your contraptions please. I urge you all resisting this effort to let go of your ego for the betterment of road safety, and in the process realize how good your Scorpio/Storme/Bolero and even the Sumo looks without these.

Bull bars for special/off-road applications are way better in regard to being hazardous on road, but still cannot be called safe. We can urge the manufacturers to make provisions for user friendly and effortless fitment and replacement in vehicles intended for special purposes, like a 4x4. Something as easy as a tyre swap I am thinking.
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Old 19th December 2017, 11:30   #47
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Default re: Government to take strict action against bull bars & crash guards

What does MVA, Section 52 say:

http://as2.ori.nic.in:8080/web/mva_ch4.jsp#sec_52

Quote:
52. Alteration in motor vehicle-

(1) No owner of a motor vehicle shall so alter the vehicle that the particulars contained in the certificate of registration are no longer accurate, unless-

(a) he has given notice to the registering authority within jurisdiction he has the residence or the place of business where the vehicle is normally kept, as the case may be, of the alternation he proposes to make; and

(b) he has obtained the approval of the registering authority to make such alteration.

Provided that it shall not be necessary to obtain such approval for making any change in the unladen weight of the motor vehicle consequent on the addition or removal of fittings or accessories, if such change does not exceed two per cent of the weight entered in the certificate of registration.

3[Provided further that modification of the engine, or any part thereof, of vehicle for facilitating its operation by a different type of or source of energy including battery, compressed natural gas, solar power or any other fuel or source of energy other than liquid petroleum gas shall be treated as an alteration but that shall be subject to such conditions as may be prescribed.]

(2) Where a registering authority receives a notice under sub-section (1), it shall, within seven days of the receipt thereof, communicate, by post, to the owner of the vehicle its approval to the proposed alteration or otherwise.

Provided that where the owner of the motor vehicle has not received any such communication within the said period of seven days, the approval of such authority to the proposed alteration shall be deemed to have given.

(3) Notwithstanding anything contained in sub-section (1), a State Government may, by notification in the Official Gazette, authorise, subject to such conditions as may be specified in the notification, the owner of not less than ten transport vehicles to alter any vehicle owned by them so as to replace the engine thereof without the approval of the registering authority.

(4) Where any alteration has been made in a motor vehicle either with the approval of registering authority given or deemed to have been given under sub-section (2) or by reason of replacement of it engine without such approval under sub-section (3), the owner of the vehicle shall, within fourteen days of the making of the alteration, report the alteration to the registering authority within whose jurisdiction he resides and shall forward the certificate of registration to that authority together with the prescribed fee in order that particulars of the alteration may be entered therein.

(5) A registering authority other than the original registering authority making any such entry shall communicate the details of the entry to the original registering authority.

1[(6) No person holding a vehicle under a hire-purchase agreement shall make any alteration to the vehicle for which approval of the registering authority is required under sub-section (1), except with the written consent of the registered owner.]

Explanation- For the purposes of this section, "alteration" means a change in the structure of a vehicle which results in change in its basic feature.]

So ideally anything that does not conform to the factory design and manufacturing is liable to offence under section 52 for any and all vehicles for all kinds of non-factory modifications.


Our own thread on the act:

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...icles-act.html (Let's know the law (Motor Vehicles Act))

Quote:
Originally Posted by cnu View Post
Section 52: No owner of a vehicle shall so alter the vehicle that the particulars contained in the Certificate of Registration are no longer accurate. Such alteration can be made only with notice and prior approval of the Regional Transport Officer.

Over the years, another related interesting discussion in the forum has been:

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...ash-guard.html


Unfortunately, what the notification is doing is just indicating a clause and not bringing out the severity of such accessories.


But for now, it is quite interesting to see how everybody is gloriously boasting the advanced know-how and the repercussions of the accessories as soon as the govt has jumped on band wagon to ban only these guards. Some examples,

http://www.cartoq.com/india-may-soon...ll-the-states/

http://www.mycarhelpline.com/index.p...=650&Itemid=91

http://www.carblogindia.com/bull-bars-banned-in-india/


Overall a great move, but just hope the implementation does not turn out as an eye wash like the Sun Films.

However, a great deal has to go into it for people also to realise quite a few things on road-manners, like US, UK or European mannerisms, be it pedestrians or drivers/riders of any vehicles and following traffic regulation to the point.

Additionally, why doesn't govt bring down axe on the businesses that produce such aftermarket accessories fitments that offend the regulations?

Last edited by parsh : 19th December 2017 at 11:31.
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Old 19th December 2017, 11:33   #48
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Default re: Government to take strict action against bull bars & crash guards

Not to forget, most of these bars are latched onto the Chasis and there is very high probability of damaging your chasis in case of an impact. The whole intention of bumper is to make sure that the car bumper does not get spoiled, but people fail to understand that just adding these bumpers make the car look ugly. If one really cares so much for the bumper you can add something like below, which again looks as ugly as steel bumpers.
Name:  bumper.jpg
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Old 19th December 2017, 12:06   #49
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Default re: Government to take strict action against bull bars & crash guards

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrideRed View Post
Not to forget, most of these bars are latched onto the Chasis and there is very high probability of damaging your chasis in case of an impact. The whole intention of bumper is to make sure that the car bumper does not get spoiled, but people fail to understand that just adding these bumpers make the car look ugly. If one really cares so much for the bumper you can add something like below, which again looks as ugly as steel bumpers.
BTW how much a bumper repaint will cost. I feel it is better to get them repainted and avoid such cheap and ugly accessories. As far as I remember I repainted bumper of my Safari at least 2-3 times in a span of 6 years. I don't think it costs a bomb to get that done for any car. 2.5k-3.5k per panel is a general costing of paint jobs and even these accessories are not dirt cheap.

Oh and don't pull me in for the original paint vs repaint debate. I don't think any car in metro cities can survive on factory paint throughout its life span.
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Old 19th December 2017, 12:13   #50
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Default re: Government to take strict action against bull bars & crash guards

I'm not a fan of front bull bars and like my cars stock. But I do have a rear nudge guard (brochure), which is a Mahindra endorsed accessory, sold by the company unlike the Front bull bar, on my XUV, which I'm happy to remove if law enforcement wants me to. But I see a small problem with the implementation of this rule. Many vehicles which belong to affluent people will still run around with them, just like the flawed implementation of the sun-film removal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by i74js View Post
Mahindra and couple of other players sell these as official accessories for their SUV range.
Mahindra, as a company, do not sell the Front bull bar as an accessory. They don't endorse it. Please see the above link to get the list of accessories, officially sold by Mahindra.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mi2n View Post
2. Scratch/dent by errant bikers - I know my answer to this is very rude. I believe, if you are cost conscious about a bumper touch up/replacement job once a year, you might as well sell your car and buy a bicycle. Nowadays, most of us use zero depreciation insurance policies making these minor repair jobs even easier for the pocket.(yes, come at me with your NCB rants now)
More than being rude, the logic is flawed. By the same logic, you cannot put blame on somebody if they run over you, because you have health insurance to cover that. And, if you are afraid of such situation, stay at home.
In India, the problem is not the law, but the implementation/enforcement of it. If an errant biker hits the car and the cost of repair is extracted from the culprit, then I don't think anybody would have a problem. The question here is, why I should pay for somebody else's mistake. You don't pay life insurance thinking that you will die soon; just like that, you pay vehicle insurance for not getting it repaired every now and then, right?
But I agree that the mentioned reason (not getting scratched by bikers) is not a valid one to justify the fixture of something which causes hazard to others and to your own vehicle.
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Old 19th December 2017, 12:16   #51
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Default re: Government to take strict action against bull bars & crash guards

Quote:
Originally Posted by parsh View Post
Additionally, why doesn't govt bring down axe on the businesses that produce such aftermarket accessories fitments that offend the regulations?
That doesnot stop people from fabricating their own bull bars like the one below.
Government to take strict action against bull bars & crash guards-bull.jpg
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Old 19th December 2017, 12:17   #52
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Default re: Government to take strict action against bull bars & crash guards

It is interesting to see how the origin country handles this situation where presumably ideas for these accessories originated. Guess they have such regulations all over their states like the NSW below,

http://roadsafety.transport.nsw.gov....bull-bars.html

Superb documentation and regulations upon the same from the above link, worth a read

http://roadsafety.transport.nsw.gov....tolerances.pdf

Last edited by parsh : 19th December 2017 at 12:18.
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Old 19th December 2017, 12:49   #53
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Default re: Government to take strict action against bull bars & crash guards

Quote:
Originally Posted by mi2n View Post
I know my answer to this is very rude. I believe, if you are cost conscious about a bumper touch up/replacement job once a year, you might as well sell your car and buy a bicycle.
Nowadays, most of us use zero depreciation insurance policies making these minor repair jobs even easier for the pocket.(yes, come at me with your NCB rants now)

Quote:
Originally Posted by A350XWB View Post
More than being rude, the logic is flawed. By the same logic, you cannot put blame on somebody if they run over you, because you have health insurance to cover that. And, if you are afraid of such situation, stay at home.
In India, the problem is not the law, but the implementation/enforcement of it. If an errant biker hits the car and the cost of repair is extracted from the culprit, then I don't think anybody would have a problem. The question here is, why I should pay for somebody else's mistake. You don't pay life insurance thinking that you will die soon; just like that, you pay vehicle insurance for not getting it repaired every now and then, right?
But I agree that the mentioned reason (not getting scratched by bikers) is not a valid one to justify the fixture of something which causes hazard to others and to your own vehicle.
I beg to differ on this point. This is not an apple to oranges comparison, one can not compare materialistic things with life. Yes we enthusiast love and live cars but that does not make them more important than someone's life.

I feel the point of OP is right to some extent and even I have felt the same in recent years where I found people to be more humble than earlier in case of accidents. While discussing with my friends and family members most of them are willing to move out of such situations as they feel they are backed up by insurance(Read zero dep) policies.

I have been into similar situation few months back where I had to get front bumper of my brand new Endeavour repainted due to a minor scratch. Although I felt very bad but the damage was done and there was nothing to quarrel about and the other party accepted their mistake as well . I Just moved on keeping in mind the zero dep insurance policy.

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Old 19th December 2017, 13:33   #54
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Default re: Government to take strict action against bull bars & crash guards

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Originally Posted by A350XWB View Post
More than being rude, the logic is flawed. By the same logic, you cannot put blame on somebody if they run over you, because you have health insurance to cover that. And, if you are afraid of such situation, stay at home.
I believe the essence of this thread is to differentiate between the gravity of a dent/scratch on the bumper of your car and bodily injury/death of a person.

Quote:
Originally Posted by A350XWB View Post
But I see a small problem with the implementation of this rule. Many vehicles which belong to affluent people will still run around with them, just like the flawed implementation of the sun-film removal.
As the rich, influential brat will not remove his bull guard, why should I? Right? As I have mentioned in my post above, we always need a shove to fall in line. Instead of keeping your bull bars on the excuse of others still using theirs, why not remove them from your car first and then cry foul?
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Old 19th December 2017, 13:50   #55
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Default re: Government to take strict action against bull bars & crash guards

This need to be reinforced like the tinted glass law - efficiently and ruthlessly. I don't think bull bars serve any purpose other than transferring the dent from cars to the person colliding with it (and "feeling" of butch looks).
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Old 19th December 2017, 13:55   #56
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Default re: Government to take strict action against bull bars & crash guards

Quote:
Originally Posted by A350XWB View Post
Mahindra, as a company, do not sell the Front bull bar as an accessory. They don't endorse it.
Slightly OT but still related.

It is correct upto certain point.

They do sell front guard accessory for other models with an underlining footnote*.

*Front guard recommended for non-airbag vehicles only.

XUV comes with front airbags as standard.
However, Scorpio base variant comes without them.

When we bought my friend's Scorpio, they advocated against its installation as the variant bought top end S10 quoting the above, but were selling it for lower variant without airbags.


I am wondering if the scooter, motorcycle crash guards are deemed safer with the notification taken so grievously with respect to only cars.

Last edited by parsh : 19th December 2017 at 13:57.
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Old 19th December 2017, 14:01   #57
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Default re: Government to take strict action against bull bars & crash guards

Quote:
Originally Posted by mi2n View Post
I believe the essence of this thread is to differentiate between the gravity of a dent/scratch on the bumper of your car and bodily injury/death of a person.
If you read my entire post, nowhere in my post have I told that I support modifications in a car that can cause harm to others. My comment was only to the logic used in the post to drive home a point, which according to me, is flawed. That's the whole point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mi2n View Post
As the rich, influential brat will not remove his bull guard, why should I? Right? As I have mentioned in my post above, we always need a shove to fall in line. Instead of keeping your bull bars on the excuse of others still using theirs, why not remove them from your car first and then cry foul?
Do I have a bull bar on my car, no. Do I endorse the use of one, no. Can I express my viewpoint in the forum? Yes. I see the implementation of this law going the same way as the sun-film ban. I see a lot of cars with thick black tints still running around and nobody seem to enforce anything on those cars. Same is the case with bull bars. Does it serve the purpose, if you remove it from a bunch of cars and not from others, especially the ones which are driven carelessly? No. Where have I told in my post that I'll wait for everybody to remove their bull bars before I remove it from my car i.e; if I ever had one?
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Old 19th December 2017, 14:04   #58
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Default re: Government to take strict action against bull bars & crash guards

By this logic, even aftermarket side steps and foot boards should be banned. And what to say about this contraption in Police gypsies....
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Old 19th December 2017, 15:15   #59
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Default re: Government to take strict action against bull bars & crash guards

Quote:
Originally Posted by A350XWB View Post
Do I have a bull bar on my car, no. Do I endorse the use of one, no. Can I express my viewpoint in the forum? Yes. I see the implementation of this law going the same way as the sun-film ban. I see a lot of cars with thick black tints still running around and nobody seem to enforce anything on those cars. Same is the case with bull bars. Does it serve the purpose, if you remove it from a bunch of cars and not from others, especially the ones which are driven carelessly? No. Where have I told in my post that I'll wait for everybody to remove their bull bars before I remove it from my car i.e; if I ever had one?
There is a big difference between law amendment and enforcement. While the policies are being created at judicial level(Read: Court) the implementation is being done at authority level(Read: Police).

Now you have to take this with a pinch of salt. Can we follow all rules and regulations with zero breaches? No. Be it driving without seat belt although we know that it is for our safety, drink and drive, sun-films, driving without helmet, tripling on two wheeler etc. just a few out of the long list.

I see you do agree that bull bar are not at all worthy but you are worried about the implementation by the local authorities. But that is a separate task and that can only be carried out after the amendment. How strictly it will be carried out is separate topic. But that is the case with all rules and then comes the fines which are levied on to the defaulters.
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Old 19th December 2017, 15:29   #60
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Default re: Government to take strict action against bull bars & crash guards

Quote:
Originally Posted by mi2n View Post
2. Scratch/dent by errant bikers - I know my answer to this is very rude. I believe, if you are cost conscious about a bumper touch up/replacement job once a year, you might as well sell your car and buy a bicycle.
Had my swift rear ended a couple of times. Once a biker broke one of the tail lamps, and on two other occasions the bumper clip itself gave away, to say nothing of the cuts on the bumper. Forget the insurance, the greater hassle is to juggle between work and the car workshop, especially as in these cases you cannot really wait for a few months and then get a touch-up.

I now have an XUV and my dad insisted on the rear nudge guard. Got it installed as it was sold as an official Mahindra accessory. I am one of those meek people who got the sun-films removed the moment the authorities asked us to do so. Will see what Bangalore Traffic Police says about this, and will take appropriate action then.
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