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Old 15th September 2011, 16:50   #31
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Default Re: What do I do - Dzire D or Etios D ??

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Originally Posted by RadiantKarma View Post
Both the cars have same power to weight ratio, and Etios achieves peak power faster at 3800 rpm vs 4000 rpm for DZire.

Also why should pick-up be significantly better in DZire? Torque to weight ratio is only marginally lower in case of Etios. But the turbo lag is minimal and peak torque is achieved at a lower rpm and the peak has a good rpm range too.

On paper, DZire does not appear to fare any better than Etios on these aspects. Please let me know if I am missing something.
Yes, on paper Dzire doesn't look any better than Manza too. But Dzire is noticeably quicker, particularly after 50 kmph during my test drive. I haven't driven the Diesel Etios, but the team-bhp test drive was telling that more than 3000 rpm was noisy and the vehicle didn't like to be revved beyond 3500 rpm.

"....You can comfortably cruise at 100-110 kph on the highway where the engine is at its happiest. Highway overtaking does require a downshift, albeit progress will be slow."

This is a lot different from Dzire ownership threads we read here.
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Old 15th September 2011, 17:13   #32
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Default Re: What do I do - Dzire D or Etios D ??

Guys not venturing too much away from the topic , I just wanted to know whats the ideal Rpm range you should drive in a diesel? Why I am asking this is because I have been driving Innova diesel for almost 80k kms now. I have never seen the rpm cross 3k. Thats because at around 2500 you run out of that torque and upshift. On highways if you are going at 100-120 with the 5th gear you will be doing around 2500 rpm again. So when is it that you reach 3k and more?
The above is just my experience while driving my Innova.
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Old 15th September 2011, 17:47   #33
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Default Re: What do I do - Dzire D or Etios D ??

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Originally Posted by drmohitg View Post
Guys not venturing too much away from the topic , I just wanted to know whats the ideal Rpm range you should drive in a diesel? Why I am asking this is because I have been driving Innova diesel for almost 80k kms now. I have never seen the rpm cross 3k. Thats because at around 2500 you run out of that torque and upshift. On highways if you are going at 100-120 with the 5th gear you will be doing around 2500 rpm again. So when is it that you reach 3k and more?

The answer is, "It depends." Different vehicles have different gear ratios and engine performance. On my Maruti Suzuki Esteem Di 2004, I have the rpm at between 1,200 to 1,800 rpm while driving on a level road. When going uphill, I have to go in a lower gear and higher rpm. While going downhill or slowing down, I use engine braking and therefore have a high rpm. My rpm is always below 3,000 except when overtaking or when on the highway. Because of the gear ratios, driving at 100 km/hr when on 5th gear has the rpm at 3,000 and going at 160 km/hr has the rpm at 5,000. BTW, the Maruti Esteem owners' guide warns against going over 100 km/hr for extended periods possibly because of the engine rpm.
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Old 15th September 2011, 18:08   #34
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Default Re: What do I do - Dzire D or Etios D ??

With taller gearing in Etios D (100 kmph @ 2200 rpm as per official review), how often would one need to go beyond 3k? drmohitg has hit the nail on its head. Any discussion about rpm>3k is almost hypothetical.

P.S. On second thoughts, powertrain has almost 60% highway driving, and he would surely want to factor in highway overtaking capabilities of DZire vs Etios that may require frequent high-revving / downshifting. I have little personal experience on this. So let me step aside.

Last edited by RadiantKarma : 15th September 2011 at 18:24.
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Old 15th September 2011, 18:23   #35
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Default Re: What do I do - Dzire D or Etios D ??

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Originally Posted by drmohitg View Post
,,,,But if you compare the Etios head on with Dzire, does it still has those faults?


To an extent it does.

I own a Dzire diesel and got a chance to test drive the Etios a month or so back.

Dzire +ve :

Engine.
Proven.
M.A.S.S
Decent for highway cruises.
Comfortable front seats.
Chiller AC

Dzire -ve

Turbo lag.
High boot, rear visibility is poor. Takes time to get used.
Body roll.
Cramped rear seats.
Thick A-pillars (found it almost same in Etios, so this point would nullify when pitted against the Etios. Nevertheless, its a -ve point)
Rattles (touch wood, I have only on the dash board,on bad roads). No rattles on tarmac.
Broken roads are an occupant's worst nightmare irrespective of front/rear occupants. Rear passenger suffer more.
Rear floor board has hump. In addition, the additional bottle holder at the rear makes foot room for the 3rd passenger non existent.
Small and shallow glove box.

Can't comment much about Etios as it was a petrol variant.

Etios +ve

Rear seats more spacious
Rear foot area is almost flat, 3rd passenger will be comfortable
Slightly better view from the driver's POV.
Gear shifts were smooth. My car despite doing 15k, hasn't got the smoothest of the gear shifts.
Ride quality is better. Didn't notice much body roll

Etios -ve

Quality of plastics bad. Made my feel my car is a segment or two above
Shallow boot (felt so.)

That's all I can think for the moment.


And all the talks of Dzire being phased out is BS. MSIL would never do that. If anything, expect MSIL to launch another two-three models in the same price range to cannibalize it's own sales.
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Old 16th September 2011, 01:20   #36
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Default Re: What do I do - Dzire D or Etios D ??

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Originally Posted by drmohitg View Post
Guys not venturing too much away from the topic , I just wanted to know whats the ideal Rpm range you should drive in a diesel? Why I am asking this is because I have been driving Innova diesel for almost 80k kms now. I have never seen the rpm cross 3k. Thats because at around 2500 you run out of that torque and upshift. On highways if you are going at 100-120 with the 5th gear you will be doing around 2500 rpm again. So when is it that you reach 3k and more?
The above is just my experience while driving my Innova.
See this post for details of Etios and Innova torque curves. In the Innova one will not run out of torque anytime soon. In fact the vehicle is very much in powerband at 120kmph.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/offici...ml#post2504878 (Toyota Etios Diesel : Test Drive & Review)

I also own an Innova.
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Old 16th September 2011, 03:59   #37
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Default Re: What do I do - Dzire D or Etios D ??

you are consider the Dzire & Etios D, both look ugly. So one question - why are you not considering the verito?
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Old 16th September 2011, 09:14   #38
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Default Re: What do I do - Dzire D or Etios D ??

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Originally Posted by saintsinner View Post
you are consider the Dzire & Etios D, both look ugly. So one question - why are you not considering the verito?

My guess would be that either the OP has a greater confidence in Japanese engineering or he does not like the taxi cab image of the Mahindra Verito. In either case, the Verito seems to be just as solid as the DZire and Etios, and is priced in the same range.
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Old 16th September 2011, 11:19   #39
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Default Re: What do I do - Dzire D or Etios D ??

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Originally Posted by saintsinner View Post
you are consider the Dzire & Etios D, both look ugly. So one question - why are you not considering the verito?
Quote:
Originally Posted by k_nitin_r View Post
My guess would be that either the OP has a greater confidence in Japanese engineering or he does not like the taxi cab image of the Mahindra Verito. In either case, the Verito seems to be just as solid as the DZire and Etios, and is priced in the same range.
Not considering Verito cause, I guess it only comes with 1 airbag. I could be mistaken, can somebody confirm ???
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Old 16th September 2011, 19:50   #40
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Default Re: What do I do - Dzire D or Etios D ??

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Originally Posted by saintsinner View Post
you are consider the Dzire & Etios D, both look ugly. So one question - why are you not considering the verito?
Or the Manza? I think that's a fair question.

Getting a Dzire when you already have an SX4 in the garage seems strange. You will definitely feel the difference and start comparing. Also, de-risking is always a good idea.

The Manza is probably better equipped and has better legroom than both the contenders you have mentioned. Unless you are skipping Indian brands completely- no issue with that, a lot of people do.

I would say: get the Etios: if you've got over the looks enough to consider buying it, I guess it makes sense since the car has got fantastic reviews (you may choose to disregard the ones on that horrendous site because..well..BECAUSE!)

All the best!
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Old 17th September 2011, 10:56   #41
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Default Re: What do I do - Dzire D or Etios D ??

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Originally Posted by noopster View Post
Or the Manza? I think that's a fair question.

Getting a Dzire when you already have an SX4 in the garage seems strange. You will definitely feel the difference and start comparing. Also, de-risking is always a good idea.

The Manza is probably better equipped and has better legroom than both the contenders you have mentioned. Unless you are skipping Indian brands completely- no issue with that, a lot of people do.

I would say: get the Etios: if you've got over the looks enough to consider buying it, I guess it makes sense since the car has got fantastic reviews (you may choose to disregard the ones on that horrendous site because..well..BECAUSE!)

All the best!
My main reason for considering Dzire was that I wanted a reliable runner. I hate being stranded THe Manza, I agree has better looks,features & legroom, but it's reliablity is comparatively lesser. I'm not saying it's unreliable,but it's not in the same league.
And I have nothing towards Indian brands,least of all TATA. I speak on a Tata phone, mom cooks food with Tata salt, Dad drinks Tata tea & I have invested in Tata Steel shares!!!!!!!
Yes noopster, ,after going through all bhp'ians views,I think it's only wise that I dont put all the eggs in the same basket !!!
Still waiting for that elusive test drive.

Thanks & Regards
Varun
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Old 17th September 2011, 13:43   #42
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Default Re: What do I do - Dzire D or Etios D ??

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Originally Posted by powertrain View Post
My main reason for considering Dzire was that I wanted a reliable runner. I hate being stranded THe Manza, I agree has better looks,features & legroom, but it's reliablity is comparatively lesser. I'm not saying it's unreliable,but it's not in the same league.
Forget reliability (I know it's not easy!), Manza with its soft suspension setup will offer bouncy ride on uneven Indian highways. Since your highway driving is 60%, Manza simply won't work for you.

Coming back to reliability, I must point out to you that there have surprisingly been a few quality concerns on Etios on the forum. In my case too (I own Etios P), I have been observing, of late, mild vibrations trickling inside the cabin at idle. Have taken up the matter with A.S.S. & subsequently with Toyota too. While response has been prompt, so far no hope is being held out for mitigation of the issue. In fact, the stance being maintained persistently is that these vibrations are normal for Etios. I have been asking if this is normal, why the problem was not present earlier?! At the same time, there are users on the forum who have not faced this problem.

Do not want to tick you off, but thought you should be aware of the issues before you take the plunge. Especially because, on most other counts, Etios appears outright winner for you. And that's why, earlier too, I had mentioned the advantage of DZire stating that it's a proven car.
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Old 17th September 2011, 21:41   #43
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Default Re: What do I do - Dzire D or Etios D ??

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Originally Posted by drmohitg View Post
With all due respect, please tell me how do you honestly feel about that above URL? I just visited it and its just a load of crap. My observations:
1. You start a similar site for any car in the Indian market today right from the Alto to the Mercedes. You will find innumerable people who will have problems with there cars. Many of them are just arm chair critics.
2. Here are some problems posted on that site which should give you an idea of the kind of people I just referred to:
-My car was dirty at the time of delivery with plastic covers missing - Car fault? Go fight with the Dealer!
-I discovered the next day that only 1 reverse light is working -
-The rubber gaskets are missing from the doors due to which water seeps in and so do insects, lizards and rats - OMG! Seriously rubber gaskets keep the lizards out of your car? I feel sorry for the owner.

The list goes on. The site has started hosting a lot of adds as I see. Kudos to the guy who runs the site. He just came out with a fantastic idea to make some quick money.

Please I sincerely request everyone to read the stuff being posted on that above URL properly and draw your own conclusions. We have another thread dedicated to that URL. I will anyday trust Tbhp owners and there reviews rather than this guy.

I am in no way trying to defend Toyota or anything. The whole idea is to not to make a wrong decision based on this guys site. Do read it for atleast 10-15 minutes before drawing your conclusions.

Edit: here is another guy and his master piece from the same site. Sorry if its offtopic but I just felt it might help in establishing if these faults with Etios are real or not, So mods please don't delete this.
The guy is present in team-bhp too, so why not take up the discussion directly? I dont quite dismiss the site as fraud, as people buy a 'Q-class' Toyota expecting Toyota standards, but they get shocked when they see Maruti/ TATA standards (No offence to any Maruti/ TATA owners). What people dont realise, and Toyota doesn't advertise is that when they price it at Maruti/ TATA levels - they can only give Maruti / TATA quality and not Q- class quality. I could be wrong though!

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...laints-12.html (Frustrated Etios owner places Ad with complaints)

Here is his side of the story -
Quote:
Thanks Radiant Karma, I am the same Munish Ahuja from Delhi.
I am happy to be among you all. Interestingly, I started this website to avoid the personal derogatory remarks from people commenting on my feedbacks some famous websites but it actually brought together many people facing problems in their ETIOS. Actually I thought that I was alone who had problem in ETIOS as dealer also said the same to me.
Mouthshut reviews also seem to have many people complaining on the satisfaction. Its just 3 *** rating with only 65% recommendation, compared to competition (DZire and Manza) which fares much better. Looks like the common customer satisfaction index is not high up there IMO.

I'm not an owner of Toyota Etios/ Liva nor have test driven one. Although i was looking for a car from the same price range, I gave Liva a miss without a TD. Hence no technical comments from me regarding the same.

I also do not recommend DZire D, specially since new DZire may be launched soon, and the product is real old now compared to competition.

Last edited by CrAzY dRiVeR : 17th September 2011 at 22:07.
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Old 17th September 2011, 23:02   #44
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Default Re: What do I do - Dzire D or Etios D ??

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Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
The guy is present in team-bhp too, so why not take up the discussion directly?
I already requested him to give in a detailed report of all the issues faced by him. Yet to see a reply posted on that thread discussing Etios problems based on his site.


Quote:
Mouthshut reviews also seem to have many people complaining on the satisfaction. Its just 3 *** rating with only 65% recommendation, compared to competition (DZire and Manza) which fares much better. Looks like the common customer satisfaction index is not high up there IMO.
Well I am a toyota fan. Have had only amazing experiences with them till date. My understanding of those reviews is that people expect Toyota to give them an Altis at the price of a Dzire. Thats just wishful thinking. No one is doing charity here. They are all in business and competing with eachother. What separates Toyota is the long term reliability that comes with the badge. Things like single wiper, single reverse light, integrated head rest, higher NVH levels, absent rubber gaskets are all there in the car beforehand. Its not like VW where you are shown a car with leather steering wheel and chrome and are handed over something different. So my whole point is to tell the thread starter to go and take a TD and see if he likes the car. And yes take all those criticism on mouthshut and elsewhere with a pinch of salt. Best reviews of any car will be from the owners on our forum who know what they are buying.

Either way you can't go wrong with either the Dzire or the Etios.
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Old 18th September 2011, 08:14   #45
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Hey Varun,

Thanks for your PM in inviting me for the discussion.

I have owned Swift diesel in the past and had driven more than 1.25 lakh KM on it and I own Etios P as a second car currently.

Swift Dzire in my assumption is similar to Swift in comfort, road handling, performance, fuel efficiency, reliability, after sales service, etc. So with that assumption, here are few points I want to share

Pros of Swift

+ Relatively silent in cabin
+ Dashboard and interior quality is one up.
+ I have driven till 182 kmph and its definitely sporty.
+ Maintenance costs except engine related ones are very much affordable.
+ Numerous service outlets, literally I see one every few kms.

Pros of Etios

+ The process followed at Toyota service outlets is a generation ahead of Marutis. I m aware of Annamalais being an exception in frustrated Etios owner thread. But I have serviced my car in different outlets, and so far experience has been outstanding. Believe it it not, they can do any service 5k or 50k in one hours time and return the vehicle. They claim 7 teams work parallel on your car. There is a status dashboard in the customer waiting place which gives you realtime status of work done on your car. The quality of workman ship is good, the overall experience is pleasing and reassuring.
+ Comfort levels in this car is much ahead of Swift. Swift is more of font seat passengers car, Etios on the other hand can seat 5 comfortably.
+ Boot is very huge and useful.
+ Maintenance costs are very much affordable, estimate for 5k, 10k, 20k all together in Smiles package is Rs. 3000 and odd bucks for Petrol, this includes two services where engine fluid replacement included.
+ I expect Etios D to have more fuel efficiency than Swift considering my friends inputs on Corolla D.
+ Engine reliability of Toyota D4D should be several folds of that of Swift which can last only for 1.5 lakh KM after which injectors, turbo, connecting rod and bearings give away and is a bomb to repair.
+ Service team of Swift are qualified only to carry out peripheral repairs like oil change, filter change, etc. I have had several issues when depended on them for intricate repairs even on AC, turbo, intercooler, etc. So if your car has minor glitches, I would advise to live with it. On the contrary Toyota experience has been good and they are more sensitive.
+ Brakes on Etios is more reassuring.
+ Suspension is a league ahead in comfort.
+ Overall driving experience with respect has much more than engine bhp and torque, the linearity of the output, cubic capacity, and gear ratios mater a lot. Based on the reviews I had read about Etios D from official reviewers, I assume Etios would be the one general people would fall in love for.

Though views are subjective, mine opinion would be go for the Etios D.

Vishnu

Last edited by vishnugs : 18th September 2011 at 08:17.
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