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Old 26th May 2006, 14:39   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speedbuster
1. Esteem: Outdated, but still packs a gud punch+ gud FE+ cheapest spares of em' all.
2. Indigo: I wont recommend this car to anyone, we got one Indigo LS in our family, and there were rattling noise all inside the car, the doors dosent shut in line, the glove box came in my hand when I opened it..
quality is rock bottom.
3. Ikon Flair: gud looks, nice handling, ok ok FE.
but, its servicing is quite steep, my cousin brother has 1.6 SXi, and he curses himself whenever he goes for servicing, he shells out 2-3k everytime.Spares parts are relatively expensive.
@speedbuster, you could not have been more accurate in your assesment. I agree. If I were the buyer looking at the 5L category, would not hesitate to choose the Esteem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by revharder
i am surprised that no one suggested Ikon Flair!!
I would have suggested it if FE was not the consideration. Those I know report 10kmpl in Chennai. Maybe @icemanz can check with some actual owners (both online and in the real world) esp. since nitin_hegde reports 13kmpl. Also service costs are higher, which has been reported by many people on this forum and otherwise. If these 2 factors are not considered, Ikon would be a better option than Esteem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by revharder
esteem is an outdated car. no matter it still sells in abundance. even scrap sells in much higher quantities in india. these days i considers esteem as good for track purposes only!
And I suppose it is the scrap kind of cars that are selected for track events ? Common guys, be rational. The very fact that it is selected for track events proves the performance edge it has over other cars. True that the Esteem has been here for 12 years or so. But how does it become outdated ? I mean, do we have some cutting-edge engine technology available in the Flair, Indigo etc which makes the Esteem obsolete ? No. All that has become outdated is the looks. If someone is ready to live with that, I would say, Why not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by revharder
don't consider me biased towards Ikon Flair or else, but still it is one of the safest and coolest bet for BIG CARS under 5L price bracket. i considers Ikon Flair as a first car for everyone who wants to avoid being cramped in a small car.
Could you please explain the "safest" part of the Flair with respect to the other cars in 5L category ?
I have never been in the rear seat of the Esteem or Flair, but from the looks of it, both seem equally cramped.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maxbhp
Please dont buy Esteem ...I beg you ..You are trying to prove that Maruti can still fool a people selling cars almost 14 yrs old .
@maxbhp, no manufacturer today can fool a person to buy sub-standard stuff (that was in the Amby-Fiat era). And today, with so much of competition, Maruti can not even expect that. Inspite of all the cars available in the sub 5L category, if we still see such a lot of new-look Esteems on the road, then there has to be a reason, right ? I feel that when the target consumer weighs all the options, he does not see a car that fits on almost all parameters like the Esteem does. And that is for a car in service since 1994.
Instead of just berating a car for being in the market for long, let us look at it objectively :
Pros of Esteem : FE, engine, performance, low on spares/maintenance and MUL's extensive *** coverage.
Cons of Esteem : Old looks, tinny feel.
So, the consumer sees that if he can live with the old looks, he has a winner on hand and thus buys it. Give him more options and see the trend changing. Give him a sedan within 5L, which gives more FE, is less costly to maintain and then you can see the Esteem dying out or being killed by MUL. Till then, the consumer is king and you can't fault his decision.

Last edited by supremeBaleno : 26th May 2006 at 14:44.
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Old 26th May 2006, 15:03   #32
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OK,Let me put it this way....regarding maintenance + spares cost...

You are required to do routine servicing as per the servicing manual which amounts to around twice in an year(or thrice at the most)...so,lets assume that the servicing costs Rs 500 - Rs 1000 more than any of the other car....so,does this mean that you would rule out a car you like for a mere 2K per annum extra??

similarly,let us assume that the spares are a little expensive - isn't the difference very marginal?
Why are we hell-bent in thinking about such things when we are going to spend thousands of rupees on Petrol per month ?!
A car with a mileage of 12 kmpl with an average running of 1000 km per month will cost you Rs 4000 !!
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Old 26th May 2006, 15:19   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nitinhegde
You are required to do routine servicing as per the servicing manual which amounts to around twice in an year(or thrice at the most)...so,lets assume that the servicing costs Rs 500 - Rs 1000 more than any of the other car....so,does this mean that you would rule out a car you like for a mere 2K per annum extra??
@nitin, if only things were as simple as you described above. As per Flair owners I know, the "so-called" free services end up costing around 2K to 2.5K. Compare this with MUL's free services which are zero cost if no oil changed (2nd service for my Baleno) and around 600 for oil change (1st and 3rd services). If the free services cost so high compared to the competition, how would the paid services cost ? But then my friends have not done a paid service yet. So I do not have any data for that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nitinhegde
similarly, let us assume that the spares are a little expensive - isn't the difference very marginal?
Only a full scale spares comparison done by some auto-mag or agency can show the difference. I am not sure about the exact difference, but Esteem has been here for a long time and thus spares are cheap due to the extensive localisation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nitinhegde
Why are we hell-bent in thinking about such things when we are going to spend thousands of rupees on Petrol per month ?!
A car with a mileage of 12 kmpl with an average running of 1000 km per month will cost you Rs 4000 !!
Because these constitute 1/3rd of what is called TCO (Total Cost of Ownership). Another 1/3rd is the fuel cost as you mentioned and last 1/3rd is initial vehicle cost.

I would even ignore the difference in spares/service cost and suggest a Flair, if the FE is atleast equal to that of Esteem. But there are conflicting reports on its FE. I usually hear 10. You mentioned 13. It is for icemanz to do some homework and check with owners of both Flair and Esteem in Cochin.
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Old 26th May 2006, 15:50   #34
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Given your criteria, I'd ask you to go for the Esteem.

However, if I were in this market, I would have taken the Flair. Why ? Primarily 'coz I'm 6' and have problems sitting comfortably in the Esteem. I also feel cramped in the Flair , but I'd take it over the Indigo.

And regd .. FE, as @nitin mentioned, I'd be willing to sacrifice 1/2 kmpl and the few extra thou in service costs for the Flair .. provided I could afford it. IMO it looks a lot better and has more presence, is a pretty good city car.
If affordability was a major factor, I'd go for the Indigo Diesel LX TDI.
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Old 26th May 2006, 15:53   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supremeBaleno
@nitin, if only things were as simple as you described above. As per Flair owners I know, the "so-called" free services end up costing around 2K to 2.5K. Compare this with MUL's free services which are zero cost if no oil changed (2nd service for my Baleno) and around 600 for oil change (1st and 3rd services). If the free services cost so high compared to the competition, how would the paid services cost ? But then my friends have not done a paid service yet. So I do not have any data for that.
supremebaleno,I can understand that you are a Maruti fan but please do not misguide others...Because of you,I just called two of my friends who had bought Ikon 6 months and 1 yr back...they said first free servicing cost them "zero" and second which required Oil change etc. costed thema total of rs 1000...so,let me know from where yr friends got their car serviced? and howcome the cost varied so much?
This will help me in future
Quote:
Originally Posted by supremeBaleno
Only a full scale spares comparison done by some auto-mag or agency can show the difference. I am not sure about the exact difference, but Esteem has been here for a long time and thus spares are cheap due to the extensive localisation.
Esteem is cheaper I agree but why drive a car which you don't like ??atleast I don't! and also whts the difference and How often are you going to replace such spares ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by supremeBaleno
Because these constitute 1/3rd of what is called TCO (Total Cost of Ownership). Another 1/3rd is the fuel cost as you mentioned and last 1/3rd is initial vehicle cost.
I would even ignore the difference in spares/service cost and suggest a Flair, if the FE is atleast equal to that of Esteem. But there are conflicting reports on its FE. I usually hear 10. You mentioned 13. It is for icemanz to do some homework and check with owners of both Flair and Esteem in Cochin.
To be fair and realistic,I would say that Flair gives a mileage of around 12.I don't want to boast around claiming higher mileage.I liked the car as compared to others and I have clearly voiced my opinion/priorities.The choice is subjective and depends what yr priorities are !
I did not want to buy an Esteem just because it has cheaper spares/higher FE than Flair/ "RELATIVELY Low cost of ownership"..Overall as per my list of priorities,Flair scored over Esteem and hence I bought it - period
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Old 26th May 2006, 16:03   #36
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Guys, Letz not share our Assumptions about any Car here! If you are saying anything for or against a Car, please back it up with facts and figures reported by actual owners of the Car.
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Old 26th May 2006, 16:14   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nitinhegde
supremebaleno, I can understand that you are a Maruti fan but please do not misguide others... Because of you,I just called two of my friends who had bought Ikon 6 months and 1 yr back...they said first free servicing cost them "zero" and second which required Oil change etc. costed thema total of rs 1000...so,let me know from where yr friends got their car serviced? and howcome the cost varied so much?
This will help me in future
Where did the "misguiding" part come from ? I clearly mentioned about facts I know through my friends who own Flair. I also clearly mentioned that I do not have an idea about paid services as they have not yet done a paid service. Just because my friends had to pay 2K, does not mean all Flair owners pay that - so your friends are right. But then I can talk only about people I know and mentioned that. And I clearly said that if FE and spares was not an issue, I would prefer the Flair. But the thread starter has those as critical factors and thus our recommendation has to be based on his requirement, not ours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nitinhegde
Esteem is cheaper I agree but why drive a car which you don't like ?? atleast I don't!
But the question here is not about whether you like the Esteem or not. It is about whether icemanz likes it or not. He is the one paying and if he does not have a problem (since he shortlisted it along with the Indigo), why would you have an issue about that ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nitinhegde
I did not want to buy an Esteem just because it has cheaper spares/higher FE than Flair/ "RELATIVELY Low cost of ownership"..Overall as per my list of priorities, Flair scored over Esteem and hence I bought it - period
No body disputed your decision of buying Flair here. Its a good car and have fun with it. But, you seem to be forgetting that this is icemanz' thread and we are discussing what car HE wants to buy. Not the reasons behind nitinhegde's decision.

Last edited by supremeBaleno : 26th May 2006 at 16:16.
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Old 26th May 2006, 16:55   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supremeBaleno
Where did the "misguiding" part come from ? I clearly mentioned about facts I know through my friends who own Flair. I also clearly mentioned that I do not have an idea about paid services as they have not yet done a paid service. Just because my friends had to pay 2K, does not mean all Flair owners pay that - so your friends are right. But then I can talk only about people I know and mentioned that. And I clearly said that if FE and spares was not an issue, I would prefer the Flair. But the thread starter has those as critical factors and thus our recommendation has to be based on his requirement, not ours.

But the question here is not about whether you like the Esteem or not. It is about whether icemanz likes it or not. He is the one paying and if he does not have a problem (since he shortlisted it along with the Indigo), why would you have an issue about that ?

No body disputed your decision of buying Flair here. Its a good car and have fun with it. But, you seem to be forgetting that this is icemanz' thread and we are discussing what car HE wants to buy. Not the reasons behind nitinhegde's decision.
Dearest Supremebaleno,

I was just trying to bring in Flair also into the contention as it was left out...ICEMANZ has vanished and we are here fighting with each other

The debate is not for whether I liked the car or not, I have clearly mentioned the facts which helped me converge on Flair..so,those are relevant points for anyone who is planning to choose a car with a 5L budget on his mind and also with the list of priorities which ICEMANZ has mentioned...

Priorities keep changing as we start searching/choosing a car...its very tricky! hence my earlier comments...
There are many threads which started off with FE being on the list of top priorities and the guy ends up buying something else

if FE ,Cheaper spares/maint is of utmost priority then its Esteem!

ICEMANZ- you there ?
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Old 26th May 2006, 17:06   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nitinhegde

Esteem is cheaper I agree but why drive a car which you don't like ??I did not want to buy an Esteem just because it has cheaper spares/higher FE than Flair/ "RELATIVELY Low cost of ownership"..Overall as per my list of priorities,Flair scored over Esteem and hence I bought it - period
You forgot to mention that the Esteem is simply much more powerful and fun to drive compared to the Flair. It simply destroys the Flair when it comes to performance. Heck it gives more powerful cars like the Baleno and the Ikon 1.6 a run for their money. The Ikon Flair i believe is a good city car thats it which is just about ok on the higways.

Last edited by prince85 : 26th May 2006 at 17:08.
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Old 26th May 2006, 17:08   #40
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OK, peace be upon TBHP.
I think we have given enough details for icemanz to chew upon and either make a decision OR become more confused than he was when he posted the thread. Anyway it is his call. Let him decide and whether it is Flair or Esteem, I am sure it would be a good decision.
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Old 26th May 2006, 17:10   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nitinhegde
ICEMANZ- you there ?
Looks like he dropped the idea of buying a car, due to the complexities discussed here

Whenever I heed help in decision making, I ask for facts and figures. I do not ask for opinions. Sounds like a good idea?

Last edited by WhiteKnight : 26th May 2006 at 17:11.
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Old 26th May 2006, 17:18   #42
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Both are equally good cars. Lets not berate any car in particular.

Both have their pros and cons and i feel its better if we can cough up details on that front rather than fighting like cats and dogs to prove a point before ICEMANZ feels that we are the company representatives of Ford or Maruti, like how another T-BHPian Yamaha100 feels in another thread on what car?? section
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Old 26th May 2006, 17:34   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteKnight
Whenever I heed help in decision making, I ask for facts and figures. I do not ask for opinions. Sounds like a good idea?
@WhiteKnight, definitely a nice idea. But how do we decide what is fact and what is fiction ? Say, you want to know the FE of a particular car and try to checkout the auto-mags, which are supposed to have the facts. You will find that each one has a different FE reported for the same car. Which one will you take as fact ? Same goes to asking actual owners. Before I bought my car, I asked a few owners. One mentioned 11kmpl which seemed like true to me. Another guy who was coming out of the ABT service centre mentioned 15kmpl. I was stunned and till date I am not sure whether he was telling the fact or playing a joke.
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Old 26th May 2006, 17:36   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prince85
You forgot to mention that the Esteem is simply much more powerful and fun to drive compared to the Flair. It simply destroys the Flair when it comes to performance. Heck it gives more powerful cars like the Baleno and the Ikon 1.6 a run for their money. The Ikon Flair i believe is a good city car thats it which is just about ok on the higways.
sorry to say but yrs is a very biased opinion.

There's famous saying "Monkey praising its own tail"...
and before Mod's warns me of personal attacks - let me be very clear that its a saying and should not be taken in the literal sense

Note from mode : Personal attacks are not tolerated in here even if they are in literal sense. Please read the announcements secion

Last edited by tsk1979 : 27th May 2006 at 02:55.
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Old 26th May 2006, 17:50   #45
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buy indigo diesel for better VFM but as u say that u are a new driver then u must go for esteem . it will be a bit difficult to adjust with it for a new driver . u can go for any of the cars but take a test drive to understand the vehicle before you by any.
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