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Old 26th September 2006, 06:16   #46
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Sonata for space and comfort.

Civic for New age design, Honda image and excellent interiors.

take your pick.
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Old 26th September 2006, 10:42   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sam_78
I would like to ask a ques from Iraghava ,danlanan ,supreme baleno and all those who are totally against CNG .. Whats wrong in getting CNG fitted in these luxury cars, is it only the compromise in performance or ther's something else you want to point out ?
@sam, I can clearly see (and understand) your rationale in going the CNG way - saving on maintenance expenses. And going by your daily running, that is quite a huge figure and your thinking is justified.

Coming to your question, apart from performance (which is the first casualty) the other issues I see with this are the following. These are from my experience of converting my old (but reliable, pre-LPG) M800 to LPG. Yours need not necessarily be the same.

1. Reliability of the car (which I rate as the most important feature in my car) becomes suspect, the moment you tamper with the engine, which your CNG fitter will have to do to do the CNG fitment. Hoses will be cut here, some joints made there, etc. A Jap engine (from my experience - do not have exp. with other makes) is normally maintenance-free for atleast 5 years, if not 10 or more, with the user needing to do only the regular oil change and scheduled services. But this bullet-proof reliability can go for a toss, when we make modifications. During the first 15-odd years, I never had any reliability issues with my M800. But after the LPG fitment, I had starting problems, stalling, abnormal shut-offs etc. Inshort, I hated the experience. If real life had an undo button, I would have gladly clicked it to go back to my good old petrol car.

2. Effect on the engine parts due to a different fuel being used, for which it was not originally designed - difference in lubrication quality etc.

3. Boot space is compromised due to the CNG cylinder kept there.

4. Laden weight would increase due to having cylinder+CNG on board, apart from petrol (atleast a minimal quantity kept for emergency and to avoid tank rusting). This extra weight would have an impact on FE (however minimal).

5. Safety issues - there will be people that say it is safe, while others cry out that it is not. I did not have any issues with safety for the short period I used it in LPG mode, but then I have also seen carcasses of cars that burned over. I will leave this one to the experts.

In your case, I understand that petrol can prove to be quite costly, due to the high-end & low-FE car that you are looking at + the cost of petrol. Why not diesel, which gives better FE per litre and is also atleast 30% cheaper per litre ? I would like to recommend the Skoda 1.9TDi, which is a nice car and delivers great FE too. But then its spares/service costs are pretty high, as seen from owner experience on this forum.
So, in short, the options seem very limited.

Last edited by supremeBaleno : 26th September 2006 at 10:44.
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Old 26th September 2006, 19:28   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supremeBaleno
@sam, I can clearly see (and understand) your rationale in going the CNG way - saving on maintenance expenses. And going by your daily running, that is quite a huge figure and your thinking is justified.

Coming to your question, apart from performance (which is the first casualty) the other issues I see with this are the following. These are from my experience of converting my old (but reliable, pre-LPG) M800 to LPG. Yours need not necessarily be the same.

1. Reliability of the car (which I rate as the most important feature in my car) becomes suspect, the moment you tamper with the engine, which your CNG fitter will have to do to do the CNG fitment. Hoses will be cut here, some joints made there, etc. A Jap engine (from my experience - do not have exp. with other makes) is normally maintenance-free for atleast 5 years, if not 10 or more, with the user needing to do only the regular oil change and scheduled services. But this bullet-proof reliability can go for a toss, when we make modifications. During the first 15-odd years, I never had any reliability issues with my M800.
2. Effect on the engine parts due to a different fuel being used, for which it was not originally designed - difference in lubrication quality etc.

3. Boot space is compromised due to the CNG cylinder kept there.

4. Laden weight would increase due to having cylinder+CNG on board, apart from petrol (atleast a minimal quantity kept for emergency and to avoid tank rusting). This extra weight would have an impact on FE (however minimal).

5. Safety issues - there will be people that say it is safe, while others cry out that it is not. I did not have any issues with safety for the short period I used it in LPG mode, but then I have also seen carcasses of cars that burned over. I will leave this one to the experts.

In your case, I understand that petrol can prove to be quite costly, due to the high-end & low-FE car that you are looking at + the cost of petrol. Why not diesel, which gives better FE per litre and is also atleast 30% cheaper per litre ? I would like to recommend the Skoda 1.9TDi, which is a nice car and delivers great FE too. But then its spares/service costs are pretty high, as seen from owner experience on this forum.
So, in short, the options seem very limited.
Supreme baleno ,thanks for sharing your experience with us .

Reliability of the car - i 've asked this ques several times from the dealers and i 've been told that theres no as such tampering done with the engine . he said no joints or cut 'll be made in the engine compartment(now i dont know how far was that true)

[/quote=]But after the LPG fitment, I had starting problems, stalling, abnormal shut-offs etc. Inshort, I hated the experience. If real life had an undo button[/quote]

Buddy,are you sure you got the fitment done at the authorized service center ?

If CNG/LPG cars are full of such problems then why are manufacturers coming up with the CNG/LPG cars ? To name a few .. Indica/indigo CNG , Lancer CNG ,Optra CNG ,WagonR LPG, Santro and Accent CNG 'll be launched soon and other manufacturers too are working on CNG cars and above all why ARAI and other such othe associations are giving the thumbs up to the CNG/LPG cars ?

I would be glad if someone could clear my doubts ..
Thanks .
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Old 26th September 2006, 20:15   #49
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As far as I remember, there definitely are some cuts/joints to be made.
Yes, it was done at an auth. centre.
Factory fitted stuff (not at the dealers) would be definitely a cut above the after-market stuff, as far as quality of the job goes. If you have such an option, I would rate it better.
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Old 26th September 2006, 20:21   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sam_78
If CNG/LPG cars are full of such problems then why are manufacturers coming up with the CNG/LPG cars ? I would be glad if someone could clear my doubts ..
Thanks .
You are referring to original factory fitted options, SB was talking about retro-fitment.

There is always a difference, authorized service center or not.

And Sam, try not to quote the entire post, just use the appropriate section only.......
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Old 26th September 2006, 21:44   #51
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Whic one of Civic MT or Corolla H1?

My drive is 60 Km or so per day, Mainly Highway, and MOSTLY Chauffer driven.

Want Rear seat comfort, decent suspension, Good boot, Good FE, decent resale after at least 5 years and decently priced spares. VFM

Want just a decent power and seamless delivery. I am not a speed maniac and nor is the Chauffer allowed to really speed.

Corolla is decently priced right now with good discounts. HE model expected to be further discounted in the coming months.

I have heard and seen that Civic has lower ground clearance than Corolla. Has lesser rear seat comfort, less FE, smaller boot, less luxurious interiors. But --- Dashboard is futuristic and amazing. Better engine. Latest Tech.

Civic is more of a drivers car (in my case Chauffer).

Please help
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Old 27th September 2006, 00:06   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supremeBaleno
Factory fitted stuff (not at the dealers) would be definitely a cut above the after-market stuff, as far as quality of the job goes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by suman
You are referring to original factory fitted options, SB was talking about retro-fitment.
Guys, out of the cars i mentioned ,other than wagonR duo there's no car that comes with factory fitted kit . All fittings are done at the dealers end and most of the kits are sourced from the supplier based in Okhla ,new delhi . The only difference is that the warranty does not get void ..
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Old 27th September 2006, 01:15   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sam_78
Thanks for the mixed suggestion guys .Each one of those is highly aappreciated ..

@Supreme baleno ,suman,iraghava ,danlalan - Guys ,i can see the frustration in you and very rightly so and that very well shows that you guys are pure Auto enthusiasts ...
I agree these luxury cars are not meant for such purpose but i feel gone are those days when we used to buy cars from our heart .Nowadays its a mix of both "Heart and mind" . I can afford to buy a car worth 12 lacs but i know i cant bear the cost of Petrol or diesel(diesel too is getting costlier day by day) due to my high usage .
In short ,i want my monthly expenses to be minimal .
If you guys 've any other ideas other than CNG please please do share it with me .



Exactly my thoughts .
Insane devil- are you by any chance an Astrologer ?? You 've put all my thoughts on paper . Thanks pal .

Quote:
When he jus doesnt care about how fast it goes or how quick he goes.
You are very right ID ,in this case i really dont care much about how fast the car is ..

Hey Sam_78, well its a great pleasure being appreciated in this way by u! its just that gotta put oneself in others shoes to understand their feelings... not difficult, but takes a lil bit practice, hahaha!

Hope u do end up buying the Sonata Embera. Everytime i see that car, i jus think why didnt they launch the diesel first so i could by that! given a choice between Sonata Embera Diesel, and Skoda Laura... i would firstoff go for the Sonata Embera Diesel. thou, the Laura's DSG would have pulled me to the Laura on second thoughts. if it were for manual, Sonata Embera Diesel wins hands down!

Did u check out the dealer's link i gave u regarding the GAS kit for Sonatas? whats his take on it?

Last edited by Insane Devil : 27th September 2006 at 01:23.
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Old 27th September 2006, 08:08   #54
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What is state is spot on! However there are quite a few threads on this comparison. Run a search and jump to that thread!!
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Old 27th September 2006, 09:35   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sam_78
I would like to ask a ques from Iraghava ,danlanan ,supreme baleno and all those who are totally against CNG ..

Whats wrong in getting CNG fitted in these luxury cars ,is it only the compromise in performance or ther's something else you want to point out ?

If its only the above then why not ,I mean why not if you save thousands per month?
In my case ,i drve 100-120 km/day(lets assume 120km/day)

Petrol embera = Rs. 20250/month
CNG embera = Rs. 6000/month .

Difference = Rs. 14000 monthly .
The above figures are approx ,but you all can see the difference .Now please tell me guys is it a good idea to ignore these figures just for the sake of that extra performance ?

Please enlighten the facts guys ,i may be missing out on somethings .. Please ..
Guys, If i 've left out anything than please ignore my immaturity ..

@iraghava - Thanks bud ,i'll def PM driven .
Hey Sam78,

no problems whatsoever in putting up the gas in these cars, and thats a nice calculation u did, can u tell how u acheive at that? does sound too sweet to be true...?
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Old 27th September 2006, 19:22   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Insane Devil
Did u check out the dealer's link i gave u regarding the GAS kit for Sonatas? whats his take on it?
Ya ID ,i did call them today but the news which i heard was not too good . The person over there told me that he hasn't fit any CNG kit in the Sonata Embera and after a lengthy discussion on phone , he adviced me not to go for the CNG on Embera .. He said there are some cars that do not run well on CNG(for eg Ford ikon) and embera could be one of those(though he was not sure) . He said if the settings dont match than it could damage the ECM of the car/engine .. he asked me to wait until ARAI certifies this car but at the same time he admitted that it may take even 2-3 years ..

Though, i was not fully convinced with the talks but his comments coupled with our own Supreme balenos and Suman's is definately a matter of concern for me ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Insane Devil
no problems whatsoever in putting up the gas in these cars,
ID,are you sure i wont be facing any problems with the car after converting it to CNG ,please do share your thoughts ..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Insane Devil
and thats a nice calculation u did, can u tell how u acheive at that? does sound too sweet to be true...?
Pal ,thats a simple calculation i did ..

1 ltr petrol = Rs. 47
1 kg gas = Rs. 19.2

Mileage in the petrol embera = 8kmpl
CNG embera = 11kmpl .

Since i drive 120kms/day

Petrol - 15ltrs*47 = Rs.705/ day
CNG - 10kgs*19 = Rs. 190/day .

705-190 = Rs. 515

Total savings - Rs. 515*27(working days) = Rs. 14000/month .
(All figures are approx).
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Old 28th September 2006, 12:32   #57
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hey Sam!

man, CNG costs only 19 buks!? whoa! thats great! i thought it wud be at par with LPG which is almost around 30 in hyd...

As per ur calculations, there sure is a huge saving on it.
Let me see if i am able to get more resource for u.
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Old 28th September 2006, 14:35   #58
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Sam, have a look at this site : http://www.fuelture.com/

The are amongst the best in the UK for Gas Conversions, and they do it for all cars, say, mercs, bmws, audis, volvos, etc... Maybe u can have a word with them as to how the Sonata is performing on Gas there.
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Old 28th September 2006, 15:00   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sam_78

Mileage in the petrol embera = 8kmpl
CNG embera = 11kmpl .

Since i drive 120kms/day

Petrol - 15ltrs*47 = Rs.705/ day
CNG - 10kgs*19 = Rs. 190/day .

705-190 = Rs. 515

Total savings - Rs. 515*27(working days) = Rs. 14000/month .
(All figures are approx).
Sorry Sam, didn't get the conversion from 11 km per litre to 10 kgs of CNG - how many litres is equivalent to 1 kg of CNG?
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Old 28th September 2006, 15:24   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devarshi84
Sonata for space and comfort.

Civic for New age design, Honda image and excellent interiors.

take your pick.
Sonata for space, comfort and performance also.
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