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Old 30th September 2009, 09:54   #1
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Default Suggest a car for upgrade after SX4. EDIT : Got the Civic!

After 2.5 years of ownership of a SX4 zxi, I now plan to upgrade to a new and refined car within the budget of 10-11 lacs and in Petrol variant only!

Requirements:
1) Single, Self driven
2) must have the looks
3) Engine refinement and good handling dynamism
4) sheer driving pleasure
5) Plush interiors
6) Unmatch reliability
7) Optionally, an auto tranny

Reasons for sticking to Petrol:
1) Monthly running of a mere 500-600 kms
2) unmatched engine refinement for petrol heads

Reasons for leaving SX4:
1) Engine, though good at specs, is much to be desired in terms of low-end torque and driveability.
2) Intolerable engine/tyre noise above 3000 RPM, though good highway manners and high speed stability (<160 kmph)
2) Reverse gear won't slot in properly half the time
3) Pathetic plastic quality - Rubber beadings on doors are third-class quality, thin and filmsy height adjuster knob.
4) Very stiff suspension - rear passengers get thrown all over on rough surface.


Cars shortlisted:

1) Honda Civic MT/AT - I test drove the Civic MT 2 years back and yeah, I was fallen on the looks + the high revved engine. But mind won over heart and settled for a SX4. Now, I am thinking of having another TD of the new facelift Civic, as I've always been in love with this car when it was launched.

But these things (issues!) left me thinking:
- Soft suspension (heard it got a minor tweak in new facelift model)
- Bad city driving manners (low-end torque?)
- No audio controls (very important for me)
- less gadgets than a lesser price Altis variant
- Too much common
- 2-2.5 lacs over the budget

What I like:
- Heart beats everytime I see one closely.
- Love the dashboard!
- Low-seating and good lumbar support
- Lot of mods possibilities

As I live in a congested city, and the Civic's inherent issue with low end torque and response left me thinking of going in for an auto tranny. But that will be dearer by a good 70-80 K bucks and well beyond my budget!! The fact that no audio controls on steering wheels are provided is a deal breaker for me. These factors lead me to look for a Civic in its small brother, the new city!

2) Honda City MT/AT -I have yet to take a test drive. Not that I didn't tried. Each time I call up Courtesy and Ring Road Honda, there either was no test drive vehicle available, or they were not ready to drive down all the way to Noida. This itself left me thinking how the after sales is going to be, once I bought a Honda! Not withstanding that apprenhensiveness, I will be taking TD of both the MT and AT.

What I like:
- Fresh and good lookers, if not better than its older brother
- Compact and build quality to last
- A very refined and yet stonker of a power house in this little 1.5 iVtec engine
- Flush interiors and good space management
- Soft suspension (I drive alone most of the time. So, its not a big problem)
- Steering mounted audio controls (this is a deal breaker for me)

What I don't like:
- Skinny tyres
- More beige interiors (yuk)
- No ACC. Toy-like AC knobs
- No CD player! and worst, no easy way of putting one!!
- Plain Alloy design
- Too much of chrome treatment (yuk)



I didn't consider the following cars due to:

1) Corolla Altis, though it is a good car, solely, because, I didn't like the looks. Also, the Automatic variant is only 4-speed and that itself is a turn off, when the lesser priced City has 5 speed with paddle shift.

2) FIAT Linea - I like the stance and look of the car. So do the build quality. But the 1.4 FIRE will be a downgrade for me. I am not after a diesel burner, and hence, the MJD emotion, though, a good buy, is not an option for me. If there was a 1.6 MJD or 1.4 TJet, I would have given a serious thought!

3) VW Jetta Petrol - One generation old, 1.6 engine, DSG variant way expensive..


Now, the real delimma - I have zeroed in for the New City. But I am unable to decide on the transmission option:

One major thinking I had been doing is to go in for an automatic transmission. From my experience with my SX4, it was a nightmare when stuck on a traffic and frequent gear change, jerks etc are too much to take for my foot. So, I was delighted that the City AT with paddle shift would be the solution, though I have NOT driven an auto tranny yet!

My doubts on the AT variant:
- Driving pleasure from an enthusiast point of view - Would the paddle shift provide the same level of excitement and driving pleasure as that of the 5-speed manual?

- Driving habits with clutch - I have not driven an automatic before. So, I am bit naive in the very thought of driving an automatic everyday, with my left foot trying to press a pedal that does not exists! How long do you think one can get accustom to an automatic?

- Wear and tear - Does the automatic, especially the paddle shifts, trouble free? In long term, if something breaks down, how much expensive would it be to repair/overhaul?

- On highways, long drive and on hills, what are the drawbacks of the automatic over the manual?

- How much mileage difference between the auto and the manual?

- Any other changes or new additions (apart from the auto transmission) that are exclusive only to the AT variant?


For now, the practical buy for me, atleast, seems to the new City, within the budget of 10-11 lacs. Please feel free to suggest any other cars that I might not have considered.


Lastly, on resale of my SX4, a Honda dealer informed me that they can buy back my car on a fair price and exchange it with the city. Any idea how fair the price that I can expect? Car has done around 19000 KMs only in 2.5 years. Zxi without the leather variant. Single owner, almost in showroom condition. MGA body kit!
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Old 30th September 2009, 11:44   #2
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iTNerd, I drive a 2007 SX4 myself, so I can relate to many of your issues, especially the reverse gear irritant and clutch fatigue in stop-and-go traffic.

I think your main decision factor is around whether an automatic works for your particular circumstances. Having driven automatics in the US, I can safely say that these are way easier to get accustomed to than cars with manual trannys. All you do is slot the selector into 'D' and blast off! I haven't used paddle shifts, but these should only add flexibility and would typically not add complexity to the driving experience.

What you do want to check, however, is the number of maintenance issues that may have cropped up for paddle shifts while in use on Indian roads. This is not an easy task, as I don't think Honda has sold too many paddle-shift City variants. You can also safely assume, therefore, that the service staff will have had less experience in fixing any issues related to the auto tranny.

Lastly, given that you don't see more than 500-600km of use in the month, you might not expect too many issues with the auto. However, I think that resale value will typically suffer, as the market for cars with automatic transmission is limited.

Good luck, and have fun during the buying process
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Old 30th September 2009, 12:16   #3
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Wait on, 1.4 TJet Linea is surely on its way!
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Old 30th September 2009, 12:31   #4
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Appologies my friend, but I wont consider this an upgrade. I mean from SX4 to the ANHC, I know the ANHC is better than SX4 in almost all terms but still I dont consider it as VFM. moreover you have driven a 1.5, 101 bhp already and a 115 bhp vtec would certainly be better but not an upgrade, it will be like upgrading from a 800 to an alto.

I would recommend you either stretch your budget and go for civic or wait for some time save some cash and then buy civic. A 2.5 year old SX4 anyways have atleast 8-10 years life in it. The civic is the best car I have driven in this segment after the cedia. and you being a petrol head will love it.

Further, find my replies in bold

Quote:
Originally Posted by iTNerd View Post

Cars shortlisted:

1) Honda Civic MT/AT - I test drove the Civic MT 2 years back and yeah, I was fallen on the looks + the high revved engine. But mind won over heart and settled for a SX4. Now, I am thinking of having another TD of the new facelift Civic, as I've always been in love with this car when it was launched.

But these things (issues!) left me thinking:
- Soft suspension (heard it got a minor tweak in new facelift model)
you yourself gave the answer - I drive alone most of the time. So, its not a big problem)
- Bad city driving manners (low-end torque?)
I dont think so, its good to drive and low end torque is decent, better than the ANHC any day!
- No audio controls (very important for me)
If you are a petrol head, be least bothered about the contols, I mean if you upgrade to ANHC from SX4 you will miss the climate contol, that doesnt make SX4 a deal striker, it may be one of the reasons but its the overall package that matters.
- less gadgets than a lesser price Altis variant
certainly, Altis is more VFM but Civic IMHO looks better and is very futuristic. Its the same difference which I think is between an a 5 series and an E class. both are good and are for different people.
- Too much common
thats one thing you will have to live with even if you buy a ANHC, its about a year and car is already common.
- 2-2.5 lacs over the budget
certainly, increase your budget or wait for some more time.

What I like:
- Heart beats everytime I see one closely.
thats one car almost every one liked, even critics were speechless looking at it
- Love the dashboard!
its like your in a space shuttle
- Low-seating and good lumbar support
gives you a sports carkinda feeling, love it, though its bad for older people sitting at the back
- Lot of mods possibilities
you bet

As I live in a congested city, and the Civic's inherent issue with low end torque and response left me thinking of going in for an auto tranny. But that will be dearer by a good 70-80 K bucks and well beyond my budget!! The fact that no audio controls on steering wheels are provided is a deal breaker for me. These factors lead me to look for a Civic in its small brother, the new city!

2) Honda City MT/AT -I have yet to take a test drive. Not that I didn't tried. Each time I call up Courtesy and Ring Road Honda, there either was no test drive vehicle available, or they were not ready to drive down all the way to Noida.
I went up to ring road honda for a test drive and didnt get it in first place, one car was very busy and the other was away. second time they called me and I went for a test drive

This itself left me thinking how the after sales is going to be, once I bought a Honda! Best among the lot.

What I like:
- Fresh and good lookers, if not better than its older brother
right, the last one (previous model) was yuk
- Compact and build quality to last
too compact I guess..upgrade from SX4 wont leave you with better room
- A very refined and yet stonker of a power house in this little 1.5 iVtec engine
It really is the best thing in this car and the most important as well. brings back all the enthusiasts back to city club
- Flush interiors and good space management
Personally didnt like the interiors, Civic's interios are the ones to die for.
- Soft suspension (I drive alone most of the time. So, its not a big problem)
soft suspension will definately make the ride in city more comfortable but on highway and bad roads a stiffer suspention on SX4 works better. its one problem with all Hondas.
- Steering mounted audio controls (this is a deal breaker for me)
they are good but should not be a deal breaker

What I don't like:
- Skinny tyres
thats the smallest they could put, so they did
- More beige interiors (yuk)
Agreed, doest go with the the car, they do with civic
- No ACC. Toy-like AC knobs
toy like, the center consol is pathetic , dont know why they ddidnt change that silver color to something more appropriate. Also, it lacks climate control which you do have in he car you drive.
- No CD player! and worst, no easy way of putting one!!
right, USB is good but I would somehow want like cd player as well.
- Plain Alloy design
Company fitted alloys are normally very simple and classy, the best they can do is paint them white as they did in civic sports.
- Too much of chrome treatment (yuk)
As added above didnt like the chrome thing


I didn't consider the following cars due to:

1) Corolla Altis, though it is a good car, solely, because, I didn't like the looks. Also, the Automatic variant is only 4-speed and that itself is a turn off, when the lesser priced City has 5 speed with paddle shift.

This is one car you can consider, its good to drive if not excellent, features are best, after sales and re-sale are again very good. I am not used to automatics so wont comment on that. But altis apart from being a bit unclish is good.

2) FIAT Linea - I like the stance and look of the car. So do the build quality. But the 1.4 FIRE will be a downgrade for me. I am not after a diesel burner, and hence, the MJD emotion, though, a good buy, is not an option for me. If there was a 1.6 MJD or 1.4 TJet, I would have given a serious thought!

Current versions underpowered, this good car needs a better heart.

3) VW Jetta Petrol - One generation old, 1.6 engine, DSG variant way expensive.

not VFM. features, bult quality and comfort is the best.

Now, the real delimma - I have zeroed in for the New City. But I am unable to decide on the transmission option:

One major thinking I......... AT variant?

No idea about the ATs, just driven a couple, a camary and a 325i. So I am not the right person to comment. But paddle shift will certainly help

For now, the practical buy for me, atleast, seems to the new City, within the budget of 10-11 lacs. Please feel free to suggest any other cars that I might not have considered.

other cars may be cedia or fiesta, best drivers cars, best for petrol heads. But both of them lack steering mounted controls. I drive a cedia and I think its best among the lot in terms of sheer driving pleasure. the new varient has every thing from climate contol, double din with sat nav, momo steering, sporty interiors, leather seats, spruced up peddles, OZ alloys, ABS, EBD, airbags and plenty of room as compared to the ANHC. And the best part is that it costs just 10.5 lac on road in delhi. best VFM new sedan.

but resale is pathetic, service stations are less, may not be very near your place but are still approacable. Also its an old model now.

Fiesta is also good too and again VFM, but poor resale again make things almost equal while selling.

Lastly, on resale of my SX4, a Honda dealer informed me that they can buy back my car on a fair price and exchange it with the city. Any idea how fair the price that I can expect? Car has done around 19000 KMs only in 2.5 years. Zxi without the leather variant. Single owner, almost in showroom condition. MGA body kit!
your SX4 sould be around 4.75 to 5 lacs

Last edited by gaurav_chopra04 : 30th September 2009 at 12:35.
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Old 30th September 2009, 14:17   #5
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Some of the online automobile sites offer fair value for used cars. I found them fairly accurate based on personal experience.
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Old 30th September 2009, 14:41   #6
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If you've driven SX4 and want an upgrade, Cedia Sports it the next best option IMO, with all that fun of driving guaranteed and peaceful troublefree ownership .TD to see / feel it..
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Old 30th September 2009, 14:57   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RajaTaurus View Post
If you've driven SX4 and want an upgrade, Cedia Sports it the next best option IMO, with all that fun of driving guaranteed and peaceful troublefree ownership .TD to see / feel it..
You exactly said what I thought. My close friend is having Cedia Sports and he is loving it. @ITNerd, you should consider Cedia Sports too. Please TD and then decide. In your list, I would suggest to go for Civic. The change from SX4 to City will not be an upgrade

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Old 30th September 2009, 16:28   #8
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Thank you all for your comments and suggestions!

Quote:
Originally Posted by shiraz View Post
Lastly, given that you don't see more than 500-600km of use in the month, you might not expect too many issues with the auto. However, I think that resale value will typically suffer, as the market for cars with automatic transmission is limited.

Good luck, and have fun during the buying process
As auto variant is more expensive, would not that bring more resale than the manual ones in long term?


Quote:
Originally Posted by gaurav_chopra04 View Post
Appologies my friend, but I wont consider this an upgrade. I mean from SX4 to the ANHC, I know the ANHC is better than SX4 in almost all terms but still I dont consider it as VFM. moreover you have driven a 1.5, 101 bhp already and a 115 bhp vtec would certainly be better but not an upgrade, it will be like upgrading from a 800 to an alto.
Actually, its downgrading from 1.6 L M16A to 1.5 iVTec! Value proposition of the product is subjective and the perspsective differs from people to people. What I want is a good city and highway car in auto tranny and ANHC AT with paddle shift at 10 L OTR sounds VFM, considering the superb reliability and refinement (and of course snob value) that comes with it.

Quote:
I would recommend you either stretch your budget and go for civic or wait for some time save some cash and then buy civic. A 2.5 year old SX4 anyways have atleast 8-10 years life in it. The civic is the best car I have driven in this segment after the cedia. and you being a petrol head will love it.
With regards to Civic, initially, I was keen on the SMT variant at 12.5 OTR, which I am ready to spent. But what I want is an automatic and that will surpass 14.3 Lac OTR and that is where, the 10 lac OTR on City AT seems so VFM (at least on me!). And from what I heard, the City AT is more advanced than that of the Civic AT!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrari1976 View Post
Wait on, 1.4 TJet Linea is surely on its way!
It is just speculation. God knows when and if it will arrive here at all!
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Old 30th September 2009, 16:35   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RajaTaurus View Post
If you've driven SX4 and want an upgrade, Cedia Sports it the next best option IMO, with all that fun of driving guaranteed and peaceful troublefree ownership .TD to see / feel it..
Quote:
Originally Posted by sridhar_setty View Post
You exactly said what I thought. My close friend is having Cedia Sports and he is loving it. @ITNerd, you should consider Cedia Sports too. Please TD and then decide. In your list, I would suggest to go for Civic. The change from SX4 to City will not be an upgrade
Thanks Raja & Sridhar. I skipped off Cedia Sports merely on the aged design, very bad resale and after sales. But the car itself is very capable and I agree, its the best one can upgrade on a budget. But my requirements include reliability and easy on pockets during the ownership, which, IMO, is not very attractive.
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Old 30th September 2009, 17:09   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iTNerd View Post
But my requirements include reliability and easy on pockets during the ownership, which, IMO, is not very attractive.
Well, easy on pockets? Think about this -
My car is exactly 2 years old.
For regular service, I dont spend more than 650 Rupees every 3 months.
After 1 year, I had a paint touch up and polishing done for Rs.3,500. That made her shining look brand new.
Last year once had some tinkering and painting done for right-rear portion alone on the body for Rs.4,500.00
Apart from those, I didn't spend a Rupee on this machine.

Compare with what you would have spent on SX4 could give you and idea Cedia is not as bad as you thought.
Of course, big let down is 're-sale value'. Well, if you want to sell the car within 3 years, don't go for Cedia. If you want to drive for 5 years, hazzle-free, still Cedia is The car..

Last edited by RajaTaurus : 30th September 2009 at 17:10.
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Old 30th September 2009, 17:15   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iTNerd View Post
Thanks Raja & Sridhar. I skipped off Cedia Sports merely on the aged design, very bad resale and after sales. But the car itself is very capable and I agree, its the best one can upgrade on a budget. But my requirements include reliability and easy on pockets during the ownership, which, IMO, is not very attractive.
Design is one's personal opinion, I love it and find it better than ANHC, but thats my opinion. I would agree with very bad resale, but not with bad after sales, reliability and easy on pocket. After sales in Delhi NCR is very good IMHO, reliabilty is top notch being a japanese, and parts a re almost as expensive as that of civic. Rest since you want AT its any ways out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iTNerd View Post
Thank you all for your comments and suggestions!



As auto variant is more expensive, would not that bring more resale than the manual ones in long term?

nope.. AT varients of civic and accord sell at same price as that of their MT. since the fuel efficiency compromises a bit as compared to MT, the MT copes up in terms of resale when compared to AT.


Actually, its downgrading from 1.6 L M16A to 1.5 iVTec! Value proposition of the product is subjective and the perspsective differs from people to people. What I want is a good city and highway car in auto tranny and ANHC AT with paddle shift at 10 L OTR sounds VFM, considering the superb reliability and refinement (and of course snob value) that comes with it.

But all that you get in this upgrade is an AT.. and thats not 2 lac difference, the difference is 5 lacs as you will sell your sx4 for about 5 and buy the ANHC AT for about 10+lac. Since your sx4 is almost new, I would suggest you stick to it for another 2 -3 years, pay the money you are supposed to pay to honda to some good mutual fund and im sure 2-3 years later you can buy a sedan worth 14+lacs. We all love to upgrade but why not do it in style, by not going the normal way, you may save more and still upgrade to a better car.

With regards to Civic, initially, I was keen on the SMT variant at 12.5 OTR, which I am ready to spent. But what I want is an automatic and that will surpass 14.3 Lac OTR and that is where, the 10 lac OTR on City AT seems so VFM (at least on me!). And from what I heard, the City AT is more advanced than that of the Civic AT!

Yes the 4 lac price difference does matter but so does the band value and equipment list. I believe Honda's strategy is to upmarket its brand so it now wants its hatch, the jazz to compete with sedans like linea, sx4, fiesta and others, its entry level sedan, the city to compete with altis, cedia, optra and others; its mid-sized sedan, civic to compete with laura, jetta and others. and finally, the accord, particulrly the V6 to compete with bmws and mecs. All their cars surely are overpriced IMHO.

It is just speculation. God knows when and if it will arrive here at all!

Last edited by gaurav_chopra04 : 30th September 2009 at 17:27.
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Old 30th September 2009, 19:22   #12
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You stand to lose a lot of money, selling your car within only 2.5 years of use. Balance it out . The SX4 has good resale and there's plenty of pre-owned Honda Civics to be had for 7 - 8 lakhs. I wouldn't recommend a brand new car to you at all. Cars lose a ton of value in the first 2 - 3 years of ownership. Would work out too expensive.
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Old 1st October 2009, 16:36   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
You stand to lose a lot of money, selling your car within only 2.5 years of use. Balance it out . The SX4 has good resale and there's plenty of pre-owned Honda Civics to be had for 7 - 8 lakhs. I wouldn't recommend a brand new car to you at all. Cars lose a ton of value in the first 2 - 3 years of ownership. Would work out too expensive.
I totally agree. A pre-owned Civic or even a pre-owned Accord (if you want to spend over 10 lakhs) will give you that premium upgrade feeling that you are looking for, plus will satisfy all the 7 (or at-least 6) points in your Requirements list. It makes much more sense to sell your SX4 for 4.5 lakhs, put in 6 lakhs and get a pre-owned Accord.
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Old 2nd October 2009, 02:05   #14
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I would say you should upgrade to Cedia. I drove Cedia for 18 months and got great price when I sold it. I posted on carwale and in flat 48 hours I had desired money in my pocket and the car was taken away. It is nothing more than a myth that Honda cars command better resale value. Since there are more Honda cars on the road, buyers of second hand Honda have greater choice and hence the seller does not get the desired price. I would say that these myths and perceptions of the great resale value of Honda and Maruti cars is spread by those sloppy dealers of the second car market. These illeterate dealers only know Maruti and Honda.

Resale value is also a function of how you've kept the car regardless of the brand.

My experience with the ownership of Cedia was simple awesome. Great car to drive, excellent service provided by the dealer (unlike hugely crowded Honda & Maruti service stations) and great VFM product.

Civic is an inferior car to drive compared to Cedia. How many days would you appreciate that jazzy dashboard? Cedia is more practical car with great ground clearence, short turning radius, better mileage, handling, ride every aspect.
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Old 2nd October 2009, 07:56   #15
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+1 to GTO.Same suggestion,go for used Civic.You get really low mileage ones at cheap prices.Would make a wonderful deal provided the used car loan component is small.Cedia is fun to drive, but civic is class apart in everything else.
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