Go Back   Team-BHP > BHP India > What Car? > Sedans


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 28th February 2010, 14:42   #1
BHPian
 
Delta Wing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 228
Thanked: 112 Times
Default Blues in Buying a Second Car (Used)

Hi Guys,
Have been pondering over a change of car for some time now. Have been feeling the inadequacy of my loyal and hardworking but old Esteem, especially after joining TBHP (winking). Finally, need some inputs/advice on buying a second used car for myself.

(Boring) Background:
People used to incessantly ask me 'do ke chaar haath kab kar rahe ho' or something like that so one day I got fed up and got 2 ka 4, er...I mean wheels, hehe!
That was 2006. My budget was meager and didn't want to take a loan for a value depreciating object 'cos I didn't wanna see my money evaporate every time I looked at the car. When I started inquiring for a used car, everyone told me bhoot-pret kahani and worse about the woes of used cars and told me to go for a new car. A particularly scary one was how a car odo was clocked more by the mechanic for fault testing than by the owner, looking himself like a bhoot (or at least as if he'd seen one) while narrating, for traveling (mostly from home to garage). But then, I wanted either a big hatch or a sedan but neither had money nor the conviction to go for a new one. A bigger used car or a small new car being two choices, I knew I wanted a bigger car, albeit used, at a price where max depreciation has been milked out of it. So got this Esteem from Delhi after 2 minutes of inspection (without a clue as to what to inspect, LoL), a ten year (or eleven) old car with 69 K in good condition, only telling the agent (who was known and referred well by friends) that I would dump the car on his head if it went rogue on me. And he seemed to recommend this car more than other newer cars. On road, 1.1 L Rs. and I add 4 wheels to my wandering. Heck, this is the amount a new sedan depreciates in one year of purchase. But an old car is an old car, especially a 10-11 year old one, and it's been 3 and 1/2 years of good service by this car now. How much can one squeeze out of 65 bhp anyway? Considered modding but with a car this old, would the body take performance modifications and how much power would I get anyway? Even with a porting/polishing job, I won't come close to a bigger engined car.

Deciding to make a decision (ha!), started to look for a second and more powerful car while the Esteem lives a sedentary lifestyle of old age. Have ever since been jumping up and down the segments, across hatches and sedans, wracking my head on performance vs comfort and other considerations (most importantly, Vitamin M). GTO's thread on the best enthusiast's cars under 6 lakhs had me see more red every day with countless hours glued to the monitor, looking for that perfect car. Meanwhile, had taken TDs of many new cars and not one car could convince me that I should spend 7-8 lakhs on it (much more if loan amortization is considered). This seemed a waste considering that used Civics go for that much. Also got the suspension changed on my car which is now running like new (well, as much as an old lady can hide with make up) so the modding option reared its (ported) head again. Then again general TBHP advice seems to not use one's daily bread/butter car for horsing (!) around and also I don't want my Esteem to haunt me later for spoiling her old age so set about on choosing a new car...I mean a new used car...sheesh, whatever.

The search:
Requirements varied from great performance to great luxury to great looks and want it for a meager budget again, saving some for later mods. The problem was that the more I would think of increasing the budget to suit, say a 2005-06 Fiesta, a 2003-04 Corolla or Optra would also fit that cost and if I got daring and inflated my pocket to fit a Civic, an Accord V6 would pop in affordably. Pondered a W124 for a good while but recurring costs of ownership are a tad too high to suit me. Ford Mondeo seems to have the potential to make a mentioned-above-bhoot out of me so that went out. The Octavia went out for the A.S.S. horror stories of Skoda. Test drove even a Sonata V6 but it was as uninspiring in turns and braking and handling as it was beautiful from outside. Finally I firmly burst the inflated baloon and got down to this: a built to (reasonably) last car (at least 5 years life and 50,000 km to go), easy to maintain (no major quirks to warrant frequenting garages much), has some resale, is fun to drive, has basic comfort (luxury not the priority) and all this around 2.5 or maxest of 3 Lakhs.
With this, contenders were Lancer (underpowered comparatively), Zen (too small inside), Esteem (would like something else now), Baleno (very good candidate if I could overlook the looks), Icon (have driven a lot but old design), Fiesta Duratec(above the budget but I could stretch a little for this car if can't get anything else) and then the OHC (1.5 or VTEC). The OHC meets all my requirements and still has 'it' in it. And it comes at my budget too.

So unless some overriding factor changes things, OHC it is. Right now am looking at two cars. One is a 1.5 EXI of Jan 2001, dealer car, second owner, 38 k (looks phony) at 2.5 L which I feel is outrageous. The car was good to drive though with nothing I could find amiss. Service history not available. Insurance shows no claim bonus of 50%. How much does it call for? Or should I drop it, cos I don't know the dealer.
The second is a VTEC of May 2001, single owner, individual's car, 46 k (owner with three cars so may be genuine), quoted 3 L, which I feel is more. Haven't driven this car, will post pics when I see it. How much should I bargain for, if everything seems ok? Carwale gives 1.8 to 2.05 L for it.
Your views please?

Last edited by Delta Wing : 28th February 2010 at 14:46.
Delta Wing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th February 2010, 14:50   #2
BHPian
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 221
Thanked: 105 Times
Default

@Delta_Wing: Has to be a VTEC IMO, keeping your priorities in mind! Can't comment on the pricing front though due to my limited knowledge.

Also, would request you to do some more research on getting a 2003 spec model, if you can.

Cheers
Avinash
avinash_m is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th February 2010, 14:51   #3
BHPian
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Pune
Posts: 45
Thanked: 0 Times
Default

3L for an OHC that 2001 model sounds too much. Why dont u go in for a lancer? I know its underpowered but at the price u will be able to get a good piece. Also it has tremendous scoop for modification. Plus has good suspension and steering. Don't get me wrong i love the OHC but the price they are quoting is way too much
petroheadkaran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th February 2010, 15:03   #4
BHPian
 
Delta Wing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 228
Thanked: 112 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by avinash_m View Post
@Delta_Wing: Has to be a VTEC IMO...would request you to do some more research on getting a 2003 spec model, if you can.

Cheers
Avinash
Thanks. I know but 2003 models are very hard to come by.
Quote:
Originally Posted by petroheadkaran View Post
3L for an OHC that 2001 model sounds too much. Why dont u go in for a lancer? I know its underpowered but at the price u will be able to get a good piece. Also it has tremendous scoop for modification. Plus has good suspension and steering. Don't get me wrong i love the OHC but the price they are quoting is way too much
I like the lancer but HM A.S.S. isn't confidence inspiring much so somehow can't get around to it. The OHC prices are way over the top, I agree. Thanks.
Delta Wing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th February 2010, 15:18   #5
BHPian
 
ritayan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Back in Delhi
Posts: 227
Thanked: 29 Times
Default

Why not a Baleno, When i was in the market for used car a month back I found a few of them 05 /06 model for around 2.15 to 2.5 with around 50K on the ODO. Has good mod potentials i believe.
ritayan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th February 2010, 15:47   #6
Senior - BHPian
 
vigsom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: AUH<->MAA
Posts: 1,722
Thanked: 581 Times
Default

Your options:
  1. City 2004(Dolphin)
  2. Lancer SFXi - this will sell whenever you want;it's evergreen
  3. Baleno(some spares will be expensive)
vigsom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th February 2010, 16:01   #7
BHPian
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 138
Thanked: 25 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vigsom View Post
Your options:
  1. City 2004(Dolphin)
  2. Lancer SFXi - this will sell whenever you want;it's evergreen
  3. Baleno(some spares will be expensive)
I`m not sure that one will get the Dolphin within 3 Lakhs. Also it is not the best suited for Mods.

I would suggest either the lancer or the Ikon mainly due to the larger scope of moddablity.
punitkakri is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th February 2010, 20:09   #8
BHPian
 
Delta Wing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 228
Thanked: 112 Times
Default

It seems the post has got auto posted since I was idle for more than 20 minutes. Mods please delete this post. Am posting below.
Attached Images
          

Last edited by Delta Wing : 28th February 2010 at 20:27.
Delta Wing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th February 2010, 20:24   #9
BHPian
 
Delta Wing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 228
Thanked: 112 Times
Default

Guys,
Went and saw the VTEC with a small TD. Need some expert advice.
The car appeared ok on the outside, VTEC logo and twin exhaust pipes at the back. No sign of rust. No sign of major dents, paints but not sure at this stage.
Attachment 297147
Attachment 297147
Attachment 297146

Sat inside and am surprised to see steering wheel not leather wrapped, gear knob not leather wrapped, all seats are leather but front seats not with see through head rests. Attachment 297148

1. I ask the seller (who appears more like an agent than an owner to me) but he says it's all original. So I think I'm being taken for a ride. What views on this?

Switch on the engine, it's idling without any major noises anywhere, and no unwanted noises with A/C on, the cooling's ok too. Odo shows 47.8 k km but the floor carpets and general wear and tear on everything does not agree. Heck, my Esteem was better at 11 years and 70 k km.

2. I want to see the engine bay now but the remote operated door locks on the driver side don't get released. Is this original or after market?

Much fiddling later, I'm out. Bad beginning for a sale, methinks, already getting cheesed off. But what's the harm in seeing everything, eh?
So under the hood, am again surprised to see a VTEC engine.

3. I peep low and see the B15C2 itching engraved on the engine which matches with the stamped Alumin plate on the grill cowling that also says it's a B15C2, this is a VTEC engine right? There're no marks of tampering on the engine block but the engine is manufactured in Sep 2001 as per the plate and I remember the car is of May 2001, how can this be?.

Chucking the issue for the time being, I take a look around. Oil etc are ok but the pillars catch my eye. The right pillar (as I'm standing facing the bay), the one on the co-driver side, shows a welding pattern I don't recall seeing on other cars. It looks like this:

Co-driver side:
Attachment 297160

Close up of the joint:
Attachment 297161

Behind the pillar, in the space where it joins the cabin body:
Attachment 297162

On the driver side, it looks much cleaner:
Attachment 297164

Just for comparison, one pillar on my Esteem:
Attachment 297167

4. I suspect a crash and ask, the 'owner' obviously denies. Could this have been a patch up job after a crash?

A snap of the wheel:
Attachment 297174

5. Tires look OK to me, they're Bridgestone S322. But sizes are not written on them. Bridgestone site gives two sizes for 14", 165/65R14 79T and 175/65R14 82T. Should be 82 T for this car, right? Are the alloys that came standard with the VTEC look like what my pic shows?

Many doubts have crept in. Unfortunately, a local knowledgeable guy who was supposed to come with me didn't turn up and I was at a loss to know what more to check. Four eyes would have been so much better than two anyway.
I ask for the service records and they are not available. Seems to be the standard issue of people dealing in cars more than 8-9 years old to lose the service records. The RC shows vehicle registered in Mumbai, bought from Linkway Honda in the name of a company. Uh oh!

6. The 'owner' is busy telling me that he used to work for the company so they've paid for the car for him and that there is a corporate tax of 1 L Rs paid on the vehicle and when I transfer it to my individual name, I would get almost 60 K Rs back. Is this true about corporate tax?

We go for a short spin and almost get clobbered by buffalos majestically occupying the middle of the small road, human beings in cars are barking with their horns like crazy but these animals have undisturbed poise. Someone in a zopdi has parked er... tied a real dog on the road (can you believe) with a chain to a pole on the roadside, and he is also barking himself crazy without any visible effect on the buffalos. I try to imbibe the buffalo's spirit and move on. But the oft mentioned low RPM jerks are making the car lurch in the first and second gear, especially when leaving the accelerator at ~ 2000-2500 RPM in first and second gear, the car gave jerks as the RPM was dropping, no brakes on, no clutch input. Are these the jerks as often reported or are they something else? But I didn't think it to be a problem that couldn't be gotten used to, needs little intimacy with the car to handle it is all. Finally we have an empty stretch and I put in 2nd gear and floor the gas. Wow! She just screams happily all the way to the red line. I keenly note the RPM needle and the feel, sound for the VTEC but nada, can't sense any difference at 5300 RPM. I keep on till the revv limiter kicks in at 7100 and the owner gets nervous. In all this while, no sign of the engine check light (what if it is fused?) anywhere. I agree that the 1.5 EXI is much better to drive at sedate speeds but take the RPM past 5000 and it sounded a little coarser than the VTEC to me.
When I slam the brakes from 4th gear at 80 kph, the brakes are ok, no fade, good bite and wheels tend to lock screechingly. The seller is now unhappy for treating the car like this but I am happier. Then I find all the bumps and take her over them. The suspension is feeling more worn which again belies the odo reading. We get back without me having a chance to do the driveshaft test.

But by now, I see that 'owner' a fleet of cars, two of these being Icons, also on sale, and some others not on sale which he says are papa ka, mamma ka, bhaiyya ka, bhabhi ka, didi ka...aur yeh VTEC mera. Yeah, right! I'm ruefully reminded of the old TV ad that went something like this, think it was for Ajanta toothbrush or something. Only that cars are no toothbrushes. The trust quotient has failed to build up. Funnily, without me asking or even noticing, he tells me that the tick-tack sound is a drive belt and he'll replace it. Now what the...? I am seriously doubting the usage of the car. Anyway, I can ask for another TD later, if I can get a mechanic along.

7. Now the price. After a lot of bargain and discussion, he seems willing to come down to 2.6-2.65 L (claims to have a 2.6 L offer which appears B.S. to me). Is this price reasonable if my worries about crash are unfounded and the car is ok or should I go lower, if I am to go at all?

If it weren't for the info on TBHP, I'd never have known most of the things I checked about the VTEC. Must say that my spirits were pleased with this awareness.
Please help and post your views.
Mods, the pics are not showing in this post. What to do?

Last edited by Delta Wing : 28th February 2010 at 20:32.
Delta Wing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st March 2010, 16:35   #10
GTO
Team-BHP Support
 
GTO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Bombay
Posts: 47,753
Thanked: 89,440 Times
Default

On first impression, it looks like a regular OHC 1.5 to Vtec convert. Yup, even the regular 1.5 100 BHP cars were stamped "B15C2".

As the leading proponent of the used car movement on Team-BHP, I have to congratulate you on your line of thought. Well done, keep searching and you'll find just the car you want.

One bit of suggestion though : If you find a car you really like, don't worry about paying 50 grand more upfront. Well-maintained old model cars (5 years and over) are a rarity anyways....see something you like, go ahead and pay top rupee. I paid a premium at the time of getting my OHC Vtec and have never once regretted it.
GTO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st March 2010, 19:05   #11
BHPian
 
Delta Wing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 228
Thanked: 112 Times
Default

The confusion worsens, I read elsewhere in TBHP that D15B was the engine in the 1.5EXI, D13B2 in the 1.3EXI and B15C2 in the VTEC. Then today, after reading GTO's post, I find this in JDM D15B vtec motor! thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ford Rocam View Post
I was just wondering what is the difference between JDM D15B Vtec motor & our Indian version 1.5 vtec Motor in terms of Bore, Stroke, C.R, Cam duration & valve lift, the ecu used does any one on this forum have above info on indian version 1.5 vtec motor

JDM Spec 1.5 vtec (92-95)
Engine Code: D15B
Valvetrain: SOHC, VTEC, 16 Valve
Displacement: 1590cc
Horsepower: 125hp@6600rpm
Torque: 106lbs-ft@5200rpm
Compression: 9.2:1
Bore: 75mm
Stroke: 90mm
OBD: 1
Redline: 7000rpm


Indian Spec 1.5 vtec ???
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shan2nu View Post
Indian Vtec Engine

Engine Code - B15C2
Type - 4-cylinder inline all aluminium alloy
Installation - Transverse
Valvetrain - SOHC 4valve/cylinder with Vtec
Displacement - 1493cc
Bore * Stroke - 75 * 84.5 mm
Comp Ratio - 9:1
Max Power - 106bhp@6800rpm
Max Torque - 132nm "97lbs-ft"@4700rpm
Redline - 7100rpm

Shan2nu
@GTO: Thanks. I would cough up more Vit M for a good car anyday than spend a paisa on a lemon. Any views on the above info?

Also found this info:
B15A
1.5L 16V SOHC non-VTEC PGM-FI
1493cc
'96-'99 Honda City LXi, EXi, EXi AT
Asia Market
100 hp @ 6500 rpm
98 lb-ft @ 4600 rpm

B15B
1.5L 16V SOHC non-VTEC PGM-FI
1493cc
'99-'02 Honda City
Asia Market
105 hp @ 6400 rpm
100 lb-ft @ 4600 rpm

B15C
1.5L 16V SOHC VTEC PGM-FI
1493cc
'99-'02 Honda City
Asia Market
115 hp @ 6800 rpm
103 lb-ft @ 4600 rpm

The Indian OHC engines seem to be based on the international D15B engine.

Last edited by Delta Wing : 1st March 2010 at 19:19.
Delta Wing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd March 2010, 12:45   #12
Senior - BHPian
 
Psycho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 1,042
Thanked: 95 Times
Default

The first gen VTEC sold in the country ran the B15C2 engine, and the specs put up by Shan2nu

@ Delta Wing: The car you have seen is a crashed car.
Psycho is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd March 2010, 18:08   #13
BHPian
 
Delta Wing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 228
Thanked: 112 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho View Post

@ Delta Wing: The car you have seen is a crashed car.
Psycho, many thanks. A roadside mechanic told me the same but it is a relief to hear an expert say it. Is there anything apart from the pillars? This makes me wanna start a thread on how to spot signs for a possible crash (or other undesirable things) when scouting for used cars. First I think I should search for such a thread.
Delta Wing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd March 2010, 22:28   #14
BHPian
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 221
Thanked: 105 Times
Default

@Delta_Wing: I'd posted an ad for a 2003 OHC VTEC (in Mumbai) sometime back when I was looking for mine. Here's the link

Team-BHP Classifieds - 2003 OHC VTEC - Powered by PhotoPost Classifieds

Although the price quoted was steep, you can check if it's still available and maybe bargain for a good price. Didn't get a chance to check it out though as I'd finalized mine by that time.

Avinash
avinash_m is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd March 2010, 23:30   #15
BHPian
 
gomzi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 783
Thanked: 125 Times
Default

@Delta_Wing , stay away from that particular VTEC. Sounds (and looks) dodgy. There are a few 1.5 Exi to Vtec converts floating around, usually only badging and exterior stuff, so be careful.

I can relate to your confusion, the used car market has a LOT of options. Enough to confuse you and make you want to consider even more options; like a kid in a candy store with discounts on the goodies

My used car search stopped in dec due to some circumstances, but will be starting up again soon. Meantime I keep an eye peeled on all the used car dealers on my daily route to work and Pop in if I see anything interesting.
Came across a great civic too which seemed to have crashed badly and then repaired. Dealer kept telling me its a great car!

All the best in your hunt.

BTW, check with Mahindra First Choice (if you have one in Pune). In Mumbai they seem to get a steady stream of OHC's.
gomzi is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
BMW Maintenance Packages - Buying New BMW Cheaper Than Buying Used? smartcat The Indian Car Scene 76 1st December 2017 09:06
Radiator Fan Blues tsk1979 Technical Stuff 14 29th October 2007 17:31
Rain Blues! v.tec Shifting gears 16 11th March 2006 12:28
Suspension blues typeOnegative Technical Stuff 9 29th June 2005 12:51
Electrical blues tsk1979 Technical Stuff 4 27th June 2005 16:29


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 15:57.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks