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Old 30th November 2010, 11:49   #16
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Originally Posted by sanagg1 View Post
@druberoi

It is almost certain that you will end up buying petrol notwithstanding with whatever being ranted above. So now let us turn the table, instead of you asking bhpian replying, some tossers for you to respond

1. Does diesel means ONLY cost saving ?
2. Diesel means more vibrations and more noise etc.?
3. Only MSIL/TATA are inclined towards making diesel cars ?

After, ONLY after you respond to these question, please go back to Post #1 of this thread and re-read with your answers. Now share your reaction and come back to T-bhp for shaping your thoughts.

Happy Hunting !
Cheers
Dear Sanagg1,

Firstly, I am sorry if I have offended any diesel heads. I have a limited exposure to cars; gone through only 7 till date. None diesel. SO please forgive my ignorance. I shall however try and answer your questions to the best of my ability.

1. Does diesel means ONLY cost saving ?
Ans. No. It also means more maintainance and higher service costs.

2. Diesel means more vibrations and more noise etc.?
Ans. Mostly yes.

3. Only MSIL/TATA are inclined towards making diesel cars ?
Ans. No. There are other companies which make better diesel engines which are far superior.

Now that you have my answers, pl educate and guide me where I am going wrong. I love to learn and would love to understand your point of view.

Rgds,

druberoi
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Old 30th November 2010, 13:24   #17
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Originally Posted by druberoi View Post
1. Does diesel means ONLY cost saving ?
Ans. No. It also means more maintainance and higher service costs.
Times have changed buddy. There is no extra service costs etc with a diesel engine these days. Not with Toyota for sure because I have an Innova and so I can vouch for that.
So for your kind of monthly running its Diesel = Savings only.

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Originally Posted by druberoi View Post
2. Diesel means more vibrations and more noise etc.?
Ans. Mostly yes.
Slightly yes but it again depends upon what car are you considering. The Innova sure does have more noise compared to its petrol sibling. But Altis Diesel is very very silent. There is absolutely no vibrations inside the cabin. Even outside you would not realise that there is a diesel engine running beneath the hood.

Quote:
Originally Posted by druberoi View Post
3. Only MSIL/TATA are inclined towards making diesel cars ?
Ans. No. There are other companies which make better diesel engines which are far superior.
Totally agree.

Have you TD the Altis yet? Both petrol and diesel? I am guessing not. Please do that first. It will ease away a lot of your confusion and apprehension regarding the Diesel engine.
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Old 30th November 2010, 15:45   #18
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Dear Druberoi

Please don't even for a moment think i (or ant diesel head) am offended.

Now let us get to the crux of diesel engine other than Economy/cost etc.
1. Modern diesels are way more refined than most of petrol siblings. To elaborate a bit Very few petrol engine in India can boast of turbo while most of the popular diesels are, hence generally diesels are more fuel economic in addition to higher C.R.
2. The most useful characteristics of diesel is "higher Torque at lower RPM "(HTLR) which in plain words is "better city drivability ".
3. Due to point 2 above(HTLR), all the leading car mfg world over e.g. Ferrari, Merc ,Porche, JLR etc. are having extremly refined oil burners in their portfolios.
4. Now to put things in perspective some hard facts about Toyota Altis
Diesel Torque 205 Nm @ 1800-2800 rpm
Petrol Torque 170 Nm @ 4200 rpm

Both Amount as well as torque delivery is more suited for city driving in case of diesel.
Hope I could explain myself.

Cheers

P.S. No amount of talk/fig./facts can substitute personal satisfaction while taking T.D.

Last edited by sanagg1 : 30th November 2010 at 15:47.
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Old 1st December 2010, 16:31   #19
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Sorry Sanagg. Your post has glaring factual errors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanagg1 View Post
Modern diesels are way more refined than most of petrol siblings.
Rubbish. Diesels may be getting more refined, but the petrols still blow them away when it comes to NVH. For 90% of the cars out there, their petrol-engined variant is much more refined than the diesel.

Quote:
2. The most useful characteristics of diesel is "higher Torque at lower RPM "(HTLR) which in plain words is "better city drivability ".
Not the ones that suffer from turbo-lag. The Altis diesel, in particular, suffers from poor driveability thanks to its massive lag.

Quote:
Ferrari, Merc ,Porche, JLR etc. are having extremly refined oil burners in their portfolios.
Ferrari got a diesel? When?

Quote:
Toyota Altis
Diesel Torque 205 Nm @ 1800-2800 rpm
Petrol Torque 170 Nm @ 4200 rpm
Classic illustration of the saying "the proof is in the pudding". Test drive both; the petrol Altis blows the diesel away when it comes to city driveability.
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Old 1st December 2010, 16:50   #20
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Originally Posted by druberoi View Post

Common Guys, I am looking forward to some support here.
It's evident that you doesn't need any suggestion on diesel/petrol. Rather you need a support from T-BHP on your petrol decision right? In that case I am silent. If you need any suggestion on the subject, for me its DIESEL all the way. 70km/day and petrol doesn't seem good. On the part that Indigos go to workshops regulary, have you heard the same thing from a Toyota Innova? You are comparing apple with orange here friend Regarding the engine upgrade, I don't think that will happen in the very recent time, for me it will just be a rumor. At the maximum, there may be a new variant coming up at a premium to the existing one. Toyota has a purpose for putting a 1.4 diesel in it and that's FE. All the other things like vibration, higher NVH and more maintenance are from stone age friend, not much for modern diesels. My suggestion is to go test drive both. Or else, if you have decided on petrol then go get it. No more dilemma and asking for support.
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Old 1st December 2010, 17:06   #21
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Dear drmohitg and Sanagg1,

Thank you so much for your guidance. I really appreciate both your explanatory mails.

Now for the next step. Just took a TD in both the Toyota Diesel and a Petrol variant. On the Gurgaon Sona Road. (NH8)

Diesel certainly has more torque and is pretty quick for its 1.4 L, but after the initial rush, progress tapers off. Takes forever to reach 120. It also requirers a lot of gear changing on crowded roads. I was however quite impressed with the drivability keeping in mind the comments I have seen regarding the underpowered engine.

At the same time the Petrol is indeed very zippy and keeps accelerating like crazy all through upto 120 without a breather. I didnt want to push it beyond the said speed since I am not used to driving anymore.

The differentiator finally boils down to the sound. Its silent for a diesel but standing next to it one cannot ignore the diezel thrubbing. (The customer care guy said that it needs to warm up and the sound will come down!!??.) Even inside the cabin, one can indeed make out the diesel engine. So much so that I thought that the Petrol Corolla Altis had a better sounding music system even though they are identical. (I am dissappointed with the sound quality though and will plan to upgrade the paper speakers and add an amp + sub for the tonal quality and bass.) The petrol is dead silent and one cannot make out if the engine is on from the back seat, if the car is not moving. (Yes, the back seats are quite comfy even compared to the civic / accord.) I do appreciate and prefer the silence in the back seat of the Petrol variant.

By the way I also undertook another exercise to see what variant are the top 15 officers in my Company (my colleagues) driving. Except for a Merc, used by our Chairman, all the other officers have kept a Petrol vehicle. Does that say something?

I am still being biased I presume, but feel that the petrol shall give me peace of mind, while the diesel wouldnt, in case its launched in Etios, which is most likely or in case Toyota comes up with a higher capacity diesel variant, six months down the line.

I am still waiting to see what GTO would have to say at my choice since he seems to be perfectly right each and every time. (At least I think so.) And his reasoning has always been scientific and rock solid.

Thanks and regards,

druberoi
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Old 1st December 2010, 17:17   #22
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Sorry Sanagg. Your post has glaring factual errors.



Rubbish. Diesels may be getting more refined, but the petrols still blow them away when it comes to NVH. For 90% of the cars out there, their petrol-engined variant is much more refined than the diesel.



Not the ones that suffer from turbo-lag. The Altis diesel, in particular, suffers from poor driveability thanks to its massive lag.



Ferrari got a diesel? When?



Classic illustration of the saying "the proof is in the pudding". Test drive both; the petrol Altis blows the diesel away when it comes to city driveability.

Dear GTO,

You have just made my day.

Just a few minutes ago I had put in a reply, where I was requesting for you to comment on my choice. With a please in hand. (Not seen yet because a moderator has to OK it first.)

Let me tell you that I love what you write. Its always perfectly dot on and based on solid scientific facts. Hats off, my friend.

Regards,

Dr RS U
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Old 1st December 2010, 17:31   #23
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Originally Posted by druberoi View Post
My driving details: Chauffeur driven 95% of the time. 70 Kms each day. Through thick traffic 55% of the times. (But when I drive I like it smooth and zippy)

While my wife is pushing for the diesel, I am not. I have never owned a diesel. I dont like its sound. Plus my own folks tend to frown at the sub merc variety type diesel vehicles.
Reading the above the one car that seems to be tailor made for the job except for the sub Merc bit is the VW Jetta.
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Old 1st December 2010, 17:55   #24
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Here is a rough estimate that I just made keeping your running in mind. This should give you an idea:
Monthly running- 2100 kms (70 kms per day).
Lets assume the following FE figures:
1. Petrol- FE 11 kmpl approx. Current petrol price in delhi- Rs 52.8/L. Monthly expense on fuel- Rs 10000.
2. Diesel- FE 14 kmpl approx. Current diesel price in delhi- Rs 37.7/L. Monthly expense on fuel- Rs 5500.
You save around Rs 4000 per month or Rs 48000 per year.
The diesel costs 1.2 L more OTR. So that extra cost plus the interest on it will be covered by the third year of your running.
So if you keep your petrol car for 5-6 years you will end up spending around Rs. 1-1.5 L more on fuel in the end. Is that a very big amount?

For me the answer is No. If you are buying a car worth 15L OTR then do not bother with that extra money you would have to shell out for the fuel. Just listen to your heart and buy the petrol. There is more to life than money.
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Old 1st December 2010, 17:57   #25
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Interesting argument. Druberoi, you run 70km/day in a chauffeur driven car, and drive yourself just 5% of the time. That translates to @2000km/month, or 24,000km/year. Of which, you might actually drive just 100km/month.

The price differential between a Corolla Altis 1.8GL and 1.4 D-4D GL is @70,000 INR. You would recover that difference in 2 years of running (we are not taking the resale value into consideration here). That's the main reason your wife wants a diesel. However, you want the petrol for the zip and power, economy can take a back seat.

I see you live in Delhi. Why not get this: Toyota - Corolla Altis CNG? Drive those 100km on petrol, have fun, then switch back to CNG and hand over to the driver. You'll be happy because of the petrol engine, your wife'll be happy with the extra economy of CNG over petrol (and even diesel), the environment will thank you for being kind to it, and you needn't worry about the petrol vs. diesel controversy for the next few years.

Hope this helps.

Last edited by SS-Traveller : 1st December 2010 at 17:59.
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Old 14th December 2010, 05:21   #26
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Default Re: Petrol Versus Diesel: Toyota Corolla Altis

Druberoi, I would suggest the petrol. Reasons:

1. Diesel is horribly underpowered. If you drive it yourself, you'll hate it. Will be acceptable while being driven around though, but will make you really unhappy during self drives
2. Ok so petrol is a more expensive fuel. But thats today, you never know when the subsidies will go away. And there is a price differential between the petrol and the diesel to compensate
3. You got the third reason. Toyota will offload the 1.4 d's to the taxis and give the diesel a much needed upgrade. And you'll kill yourself when that happens

And looks like you've already done your homework. I say trust your instict and stick to the petrol.
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Old 14th December 2010, 08:56   #27
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Default Re: Petrol Versus Diesel: Toyota Corolla Altis

Hi Mohit,

My view is very simple.

If you do not mind spending 10000 Rs. every month on Petrol and you won't feel the pinch every time you roll your car to a gas station Petrol car is the one you need to go for.

If you think twice on going for a long drive just because of the petrol car you have, if you think twice to press the pedal to the metal thinking on the mileage drop you may have doing it and if it pinches you to shell out 2500Rs. every week on Fuel, then Diesel car suits you.
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