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Old 1st June 2011, 02:28   #166
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Default re: Choosing a Spacious Diesel Sedan upto 12L

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Originally Posted by rajatsingh78 View Post
The xls that you attached ranks SX4 Diesel at 2nd position with a total of 16 points, though you rated it 6th in your comment below,

From where is this xls picked up from ?
I didnt rate the sedans in that order, merely stacked up. In fact I havent rated them at all, just mentioned my views on each one of them. This is in no way supposed to influence anyone's choice.

The source of the excel sheet and the link are mentioned in my post.

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Originally Posted by AdrenalinJunkie View Post
A read through Smartcat's therad "Sedans Under Rs. 12 Lacs - A Quantitative Ranking" should prove quite helpful as well.

Linky - (Sedans Under Rs. 12 Lacs - A Quantitative Ranking)http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian-car-scene/81539-sedans-under-rs-12-lacs-quantitative-ranking.html

PS : I have attached the excel sheet with the rankings in this post for convenience.
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Old 2nd June 2011, 11:30   #167
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Default re: Choosing a Spacious Diesel Sedan upto 12L

Guys - if you are evaluating a Dzire/Manza/Fiesta Classic, I suggest you also give the Mahindra Verito a shot... its a very capable seadan and can standup to this competition.
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Old 4th June 2011, 13:37   #168
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Default re: Choosing a Spacious Diesel Sedan upto 12L

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Originally Posted by breezydrive View Post
Anyway, a great decision to consider a 10 year old +10 lac sedan
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Originally Posted by Poitive View Post
Don't know if the last line was with some sarcasm to highlight my (and other's) stupidity or to constructively add to the discussion.
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Originally Posted by Delta Wing View Post
I think it's a little flawed to call the Magum ten years old. That would make the Honda City, what, like 12-13 years old? And the yet to be launched Fiesta would already be 5 Years old. The Magnum is almost a new car since the facelift, barring the engines I guess. Even those have been upgraded to BS IV norms, if I read the forum right. It's surprising so few of them are in the used market, the owners must love their Magnums to bits or what. On the contrary, the pre-upgrade Optra is galore in the used market, that too petrol ones mostly. Don't quite understand this. I think that if GM had got the starting prices right (like they're now), this car would have been a major hit. I just hope that these lowered prices don't mean a clearance sale to bring in an upgrade. But no road tests, no rumours either.
Yes, calling the Optra 10 years old is debatable. The chassis is pretty old (Daewoo Lancetti/Nubira). The car has had many upgrades and in my books is still very competent and the best buy for many in it's price bracket if one intends to keep the car for 5 odd years.

The Petrol Optra is not on sale anymore. They probably get it on order only. Not on the showroom's price list. They seem to be making way for the new Aveo. Was told that the Aveo will not have a diesel, so that does leave ample room for the Diesel Optra to continue.

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Originally Posted by Rameshdude View Post
Hey,Poitive,I am actively following your thread. Optra is my first choice too. Just hesitant to make the plunge. I want to do one more TD. I have this lingering back pain and I want to check the driver seating . How about the ingress? Would any owners like to make a comment? Thanks in advance
Comfort levels may change a lot based on body structures etc. so it may be best to have a long test drive. You can start the TD from the showroom itself, which will give u a bit more time with the car (guess that the showroom chaps would be looking at the total cost of giving the TD). Personally I found the seats of the Optra the best in all the cars I test drove (Manza, SX4, Linea, Vento, Magnum, Fiesta Classic, Cruze etc). However the ingress-egress was better in higher cars. With regards to seating, ingress-egress and ride the other car worth considering would be the Manza.


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Originally Posted by AirWind View Post
Guys - if you are evaluating a Dzire/Manza/Fiesta Classic, I suggest you also give the Mahindra Verito a shot... its a very capable seadan and can standup to this competition.
The Verito doesn't appeal to me personally, though am hearing more and more good words about it. Would be good if any of the Logan/Verito owners (or someone who has test driven it) could add a small write up about it for others on this thread.
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Old 4th June 2011, 14:17   #169
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Default re: Choosing a Spacious Diesel Sedan upto 12L

If I was a buyer I would always think twice before plonking my money on car where the sales push is coming only through price cuts . I have a couple of friends who owned/owns the Optra ( both petrol) and the common grouse has been that the car is a white elephant to maintain, they used to mention some astounding maintenance bills and spare parts costs . In fact if I am not mistaken GM launched the multi year zero maintenance scheme given the common adverse perception about the maintenance costs , a tacit acknowledgement about the perceptions hurting sales . I am given to understand that the same scheme does not cover Optra any more which makes it all the more tricky.
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Old 4th June 2011, 14:27   #170
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Default re: Choosing a Spacious Diesel Sedan upto 12L

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Originally Posted by souravc View Post
If I was a buyer I would always think twice before plonking my money on car where the sales push is coming only through price cuts .
It is the price cuts which pits this 1991cc car against the 1248cc ones. On comparing what is on offer in the price bracket, the Optra almost makes a compelling case for itself.

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Originally Posted by souravc View Post
I have a couple of friends who owned/owns the Optra ( both petrol) and the common grouse has been that the car is a white elephant to maintain, they used to mention some astounding maintenance bills and spare parts costs . In fact if I am not mistaken GM launched the multi year zero maintenance scheme given the common adverse perception about the maintenance costs , a tacit acknowledgement about the perceptions hurting sales . I am given to understand that the same scheme does not cover Optra any more which makes it all the more tricky.
@souravc, Thanks for sharing mate

The 3 years 45k zero maintenance scheme is available. Don't know how it differs from the older schemes.

The white elephant bit is what scares me a bit. Are your friends' experiences a few years old? It is known that the Optra was expensive to maintain but they changes their A$$ policy and reduced the prices of spares. Not sure when exactly that change was brought about.

Last edited by Poitive : 4th June 2011 at 14:29. Reason: minor grammar
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Old 4th June 2011, 15:13   #171
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Default re: Choosing a Spacious Diesel Sedan upto 12L

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Originally Posted by Poitive View Post
It is the price cuts which pits this 1991cc car against the 1248cc ones. On comparing what is on offer in the price bracket, the Optra almost makes a compelling case for itself.
I agree that there are quite a few positives like space, power, etc but if I presume that you would keep the car for anywhere between 4-5 years, you should keep the following in mind :-
1. Running cost , mileage , etc which is pretty high [ I would assume OEM parts, and servicing from authorised service stations as benchmark rather than neighbourhood workshops and grey market spares. As far as I know Optra is not frugal in consumption

2. Residual value - It would at best be bad
By my logic , one gets more contemporary cars with better technology, comparable or better handling , comparable or more fun to ride quotient at a manageable premium . Due to the bulk of the car and its length I have noticed significant understeer in the 2 Optras I have driven - it might have been specific car issues though.
Over life of the car , you would spend more on the Optra IMO
3. Contrary to whatever the showroom guys say and company officials say , you should logically think what the companies strategy would be on a car thats clocking up around 300 cars per month on an average, has done 10+ years and without a doubt suffers from perception issues. At the price its being offered , I doubt whether the car is profitable for the company to sell too so what stops them from pulling the plug . Well spares would still be available but do you still want to take that call ?


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Originally Posted by Poitive View Post
@souravc, Thanks for sharing mate

The 3 years 45k zero maintenance scheme is available. Don't know how it differs from the older schemes.

The white elephant bit is what scares me a bit. Are your friends' experiences a few years old? It is known that the Optra was expensive to maintain but they changes their A$$ policy and reduced the prices of spares. Not sure when exactly that change was brought about.
One of the 2 still owns his Optra , its done 4 years . He got a quote of 75K for repairing his suspension and repairing niggling body damage so he has decided to live with bad suspension for a few months more - this is a discussion that I had with him less than a month back. The other had his car as a company car which was covered under operating lease from Lease Plan , everytime there used to be repairs he used to show me the bill and count his lucky stars that Leaseplan is paying for it and not him ! He changed to a Toyota Corolla around 18 months back.
Mate, are you sure that the 3 years 45K maintenance scheme is applicable to the Optra because I had made some inquiries around a year back and was told that its not applicable to any of the larger cars which is Optra and Cruze. It only covers Beat , UVA and Aveo - can you re-confirm because i think without that scheme you need to think much harder to the point of exclusion. Are the inclusions and exclusions in the scheme logical ? Please go through the fineprint .

I know its very tempting but having gone through your thread and understanding the commendable effort and meticulousness that you are putting towards deciding your car, I thought that it would be criminal of me not to share my thoughts . All the best
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Old 4th June 2011, 16:13   #172
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Default re: Choosing a Spacious Diesel Sedan upto 12L

@Souravc, Appreciate you sharing your thoughts in detail.

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Originally Posted by souravc View Post
I agree that there are quite a few positives like space, power, etc but if I presume that you would keep the car for anywhere between 4-5 years, you should keep the following in mind :-
1. Running cost , mileage , etc which is pretty high [ I would assume OEM parts, and servicing from authorised service stations as benchmark rather than neighbourhood workshops and grey market spares. As far as I know Optra is not frugal in consumption
Yes, I intend to keep the car for 5-7 years (or more). Till about 125k-175k. And yes, we normally get our cars serviced at Authorized service stations. One pull towards the Optra was for this reason, that it has a BIG engine as compared to the others and hence may last much longer, thus the depreciation hurting lesser.

The Optra is known to give 11-13km/ltr in the city from what I have been reading. 15-17km/ltr on the highway. I thought it was quite respectable. Autocar figures (city/highway)
Optra: 11.4/16.5
Manza: 11.6/17.1
Given the space (legroom etc) needed, my only other real choice is the Manza, which has negligible difference in FE. Given the Optra was likely to have been driven harder in the tests, it is quite possible that with similar driving, the Optra may even offer higher FE.

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Originally Posted by souravc View Post
2. Residual value - It would at best be bad
By my logic , one gets more contemporary cars with better technology, comparable or better handling , comparable or more fun to ride quotient at a manageable premium . Due to the bulk of the car and its length I have noticed significant understeer in the 2 Optras I have driven - it might have been specific car issues though.
Over life of the car , you would spend more on the Optra IMO
I expect that the residual value of the Optra and the Manza would be similar after 5 odd years. The way I am seeing it is that I'd be spending about 1.5-2.0L extra for the comforts and fun of the Optra upfront. That too partially getting offset if I keep the Optra longer than the Manza (engine difference and class difference making the need to change less urgent).

Am likely to spend higher in maintenance as compared to the Manza though. When compared to the other cars which are (were) in the running it may be quite similar. Vento, Linea, SX4 (may be a bit lesser), Fiesta Classic, Verna2011/Fiesta2011 (costs unknown, but unlikely to be cheap) being the other cars.

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Originally Posted by souravc View Post
3. Contrary to whatever the showroom guys say and company officials say , you should logically think what the companies strategy would be on a car thats clocking up around 300 cars per month on an average, has done 10+ years and without a doubt suffers from perception issues. At the price its being offered , I doubt whether the car is profitable for the company to sell too so what stops them from pulling the plug . Well spares would still be available but do you still want to take that call ?
Yes. I thought pretty much the same way. The numbers are not much, but in the previous month Optra sold more than all of Mitsubishi's offerings; though that may be an irrelevant comparison. If I remember correctly, even the Cruze with all it's strengths and newness only sold some 600+, the Corolla 400+ and Civic below 200 (Optra though dated, does belong to that segment)

They seem to have discontinued the Petrol to make way for the New Aveo, but since they don't have another diesel sedan below the Curze, it may not be prudent to totally discontinue the Diesel Optra.

The way I am trying to approach it is that there are too many positives over the Manza for less than 2L extra. That even if it is discontinued soon, I may not mind it. Will just be like the many Honda City (mkII) users. The thrill of this beast would be enough to feel happy about the decision.

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Originally Posted by souravc View Post
One of the 2 still owns his Optra , its done 4 years . He got a quote of 75K for repairing his suspension and repairing niggling body damage so he has decided to live with bad suspension for a few months more - this is a discussion that I had with him less than a month back. The other had his car as a company car which was covered under operating lease from Lease Plan , everytime there used to be repairs he used to show me the bill and count his lucky stars that Leaseplan is paying for it and not him ! He changed to a Toyota Corolla around 18 months back.
Now stories like this is what scares me. I really don't like such shocks!
75k for suspension. 40-65k for AC repairs. Wow! Insane figures which remind me of the Octavia/Skoda. If others have an idea of Optra owners repair stories, please share them. Would help the people considering the Optra.

What is this Lease plan mate?

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Originally Posted by souravc View Post
Mate, are you sure that the 3 years 45K maintenance scheme is applicable to the Optra because I had made some inquiries around a year back and was told that its not applicable to any of the larger cars which is Optra and Cruze. It only covers Beat , UVA and Aveo - can you re-confirm because i think without that scheme you need to think much harder to the point of exclusion. Are the inclusions and exclusions in the scheme logical ? Please go through the fineprint .
I too felt a bit unsure when you mentioned about the maintenance package. Have just pulled out the price list etc. which is from Jan-Feb 2011. It says 2 years-50k warranty(petrol is 3yrs/100k). Extended warranty 1yr/20k for about 10k, 2 yrs/40k for about 18k. Maintenance package is 3yrs/28k. It also says "Only expenxe incurred in 3 years is the cost of fuel. No other expense. Contact Sales Consultants for details." One can expect fine print in the actual contract. If there is anyone who has an Optra with a maintenance scheme, please comment.

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Originally Posted by souravc View Post
I know its very tempting but having gone through your thread and understanding the commendable effort and meticulousness that you are putting towards deciding your car, I thought that it would be criminal of me not to share my thoughts . All the best
Thanks again mate. I have (or maybe had now!) decided on the Optra or the Manza depending on how much one is willing to spend when one is making the purchase (which has gotten delayed now). The odd story of expensive repairs is making me reconsider though. I kept at this thread as it seems that there are others following this thread to make their choice as well (which got validated with the 5* ratings). Any further inputs will be welcome.

Last edited by Poitive : 4th June 2011 at 16:18. Reason: Typo. Had written Optra instead of Octavia/Skoda.
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Old 4th June 2011, 18:28   #173
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Default re: Choosing a Spacious Diesel Sedan upto 12L

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Originally Posted by Poitive View Post
What is this Lease plan mate?
Its an operating lease scheme which was run by the service provider Leaseplan which meant that my friend's company used to pay a fixed amount every month and Leaseplan used to take care of all costs related to repairs, maintenance, insurance , etc .
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Old 4th June 2011, 22:42   #174
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Great thread guys. I'm on the lookout to buy a diesel sedan as well. I'm seriously considering vento , verna, new fiesta and thanks to this thread the Optra as well. I'll report back once I've test driven each of the above cars.
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Old 4th June 2011, 23:46   #175
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Default re: Choosing a Spacious Diesel Sedan upto 12L

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Given the space (legroom etc) needed, my only other real choice is the Manza, which has negligible difference in FE.
Isn't Manza's footwell cramped for the Driver's left leg ? Otherwise, I found this car to be best compromise!

Quote:
I kept at this thread as it seems that there are others following this thread to make their choice as well (which got validated with the 5* ratings)
+1, I have been sailing in the same boat! Finalised options are :

Vento TDI - Sheer driving pleasure (A.S.S. is an issue)

Manza - Space ( TASS questionable)

Optra - C++ segment ( After 5 years this car would be similar to Contessa?)

Currently, maintenance package is available at Rs.31.5 k
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Old 5th June 2011, 00:46   #176
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Default re: Choosing a Spacious Diesel Sedan upto 12L

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Originally Posted by souravc View Post
Its an operating lease scheme which was run by the service provider Leaseplan which meant that my friend's company used to pay a fixed amount every month and Leaseplan used to take care of all costs related to repairs, maintenance, insurance , etc .
Thanks mate. From what I understood, there is a company called "Leaseplan" which would lease out a car on a fixed monthly sum and took care of all the costs and repairs related to the car, presumably besides the fuel cost. Presume Leaseplan even owns the car. Or does it?

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Great thread guys. I'm on the lookout to buy a diesel sedan as well. I'm seriously considering vento , verna, new fiesta and thanks to this thread the Optra as well. I'll report back once I've test driven each of the above cars.
Eagerly looking forward to your comparisons mate. Would suggest you to try out the Optra in the end. What are your priorities in buying this car?

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Isn't Manza's footwell cramped for the Driver's left leg ? Otherwise, I found this car to be best compromise!
+1. That was my only concern with space in the Manza. Even mentioned it on the thread (or possibly the related "Driven!" thread). The older Indigo was better in this respect.

I love footrests. Wonder why it is not considered an essential design requirement by companies. AFAIK, all Hyundai's have it. The Optra does. Manza doesn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by breezydrive View Post
+1, I have been sailing in the same boat! Finalised options are :

Vento TDI - Sheer driving pleasure (A.S.S. is an issue) - Don't you think the Optra is a LOT better to drive? Yes, it has mild bodyroll but on all other parameters the 1991cc car does a lot better IMO. Much better high speed composure and straight line stablity. (cramped IMO).

Manza - Space ( TASS questionable) - Add to that: Low cost of ownership. Widely spread out service network, Good seating position, features, sheer VFM. (poor image?)

Optra - C++ segment ( After 5 years this car would be similar to Contessa?) - Not sure what it being similar to a Contessa means.

Currently, maintenance package is available at Rs.31.5 k
Do keep us posted with your thoughts, Test drive impressions and purchase decisions mate.

My remarks in bold above.

About the maintenance package. I think there are two types:
1) The customer pays a fixed sum in advance (was 28k in feb) and it takes care of all expenses till 45k/2years.
2) The customer doesn't pay anything extra. Gets all services done in the A$$ and keeps a proper record. If the expense on the car goes beyond a certain sum (31.5k?) in the stipulated period/milage (45k/2years?) the company reimburses the extra expense. It is called Chevrolet Promise from what I remember.
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Old 5th June 2011, 10:34   #177
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Default re: Choosing a Spacious Diesel Sedan upto 12L

The experiences/perceptions being exchanged in this thread of late made me look up my previous Optra Magnum LT servicing bills. My Optra is Aug'07 model and has 45k kms. At that point, in time Chevy did not have the maintenance schemes etc.

The free services (upto 10k kms) totaled 3,200/-. The paid servicing usually has been between 3,000/- and 4,500/-. Am not including additional stuff like interiors cleaning etc. My last service at 45k kms was the highest at 8,500/-. This included a coolant change which should have been done at 50k but was required because of a small leakage and this also involved change the radiator hoses. Besides this, the brakes were serviced, a AC problem rectified and a few underbody niggles looked at - in essence there was a bunch of mechanical work included as well. In my view, the servicing charges paid till now are similar to what I would have expected in any vehicle of similar class.

Also (because of no fault of mine) I had to check out the accidental part of things. The Front LHS door (metal part) was around 12k and the full OVRM unit which also houses the turn indicator was around 8k. Looking at mdsaab's Civic thread and a few other stuff I have heard about atleast Ford/Toyota part costs, this did not seem to be a higher side to me.

Touchwood, I have not had any reliability issues with my Magnum. The driving experience has been fun once you get used to the turbo lag part of it. The torquey ride will ensure you will have smile pasted on your face every once in a while. It is extremely comfortable on long drives - have done upto 700 kms in a day - and has a great ergonomic driving seat. Am shocked to see SUVs costing more than 15L not even having a dead foot rest. There is absolutely no sound or niggles from the interiors - the finish and fit are great. The plastics do not look like giving way anytime in foreseeable future. There have been some underbody noise but have usually got taken care of during the services.

Now coming back to the question of whether someone should buy it now. I still find it VFM for anyone who ends up keeping their cars for a long time (more than 5 yrs). It is not for someone who looks at the resale value every day - it is a disaster on that front. It is not a out and out driver's car w.r.t handling but it is a great car for someone who wants to explore the torque thrill ever once so often. It is a great highway mile-cruncher.

If one is only look at sales figure to buy cars, all of us would have been driving a Maruti. Last month if Optra sells more than Civic, does it mean Civic is being phased out? Chevrolet as a brand seems to be doing decently well, which is the more important thing. The market dynamics gives the buyers VFM opportunities every once in a while - this is just one such stage where petrol cars are not selling, Chevy does not a car in the segment below Cruze and hence has to price Optra appropriately.

No offence meant to anyone but I just want to put my experiences !
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Old 5th June 2011, 11:28   #178
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Default re: Choosing a Spacious Diesel Sedan upto 12L

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Originally Posted by enygma View Post
The experiences/perceptions being exchanged in this thread of late made me look up my previous Optra Magnum LT servicing bills. My Optra is Aug'07 model and has 45k kms. At that point, in time Chevy did not have the maintenance schemes etc.

Also (because of no fault of mine) I had to check out the accidental part of things. The Front LHS door (metal part) was around 12k and the full OVRM unit which also houses the turn indicator was around 8k. Looking at mdsaab's Civic thread and a few other stuff I have heard about atleast Ford/Toyota part costs, this did not seem to be a higher side to me.

Touchwood, I have not had any reliability issues with my Magnum. There is absolutely no sound or niggles from the interiors - the finish and fit are great. The plastics do not look like giving way anytime in foreseeable future. There have been some underbody noise but have usually got taken care of during the services.

Now coming back to the question of whether someone should buy it now. I still find it VFM for anyone who ends up keeping their cars for a long time (more than 5 yrs). It is not for someone who looks at the resale value every day - it is a disaster on that front. It is not a out and out driver's car w.r.t handling but it is a great car for someone who wants to explore the torque thrill ever once so often. It is a great highway mile-cruncher.

No offence meant to anyone but I just want to put my experiences!
Fantastic post!
Totally validates points which i believed were true for the Optra.
At today's prices it is a complete VFM deal. and one that should be looked into before buying a 10L Rupee car.
Sorry to hear that you had to go through an ordeal for no fault of yours.
extremely frustrating and this whole episode is stressing me out no end.
How has the experience of Chevy service been so far? are they professional and transparent in their dealings?
in short to they instill confidence in you when you leave the car with them for a service?
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Old 5th June 2011, 14:29   #179
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Default re: Choosing a Spacious Diesel Sedan upto 12L

I really thank my lucky stars for landing in this thread. Am also lookin fo a diesel car in 10L range. Optra magnum sounds exciting.

Meanwhile, my current car which also happens to be m first car is supposed to be an outdated model and was in market for 10+ years. I rather go for a tested and proven model than an unproven new one. Oh by the way the ca I currently own is none other than Maruti Esteem VXi

Very tempted for Optra Magnum now.
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Old 5th June 2011, 16:38   #180
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Originally Posted by prabhuferrari
I really thank my lucky stars for landing in this thread. Am also lookin fo a diesel car in 10L range. Optra magnum sounds exciting.

Meanwhile, my current car which also happens to be m first car is supposed to be an outdated model and was in market for 10+ years. I rather go for a tested and proven model than an unproven new one. Oh by the way the ca I currently own is none other than Maruti Esteem VXi

Very tempted for Optra Magnum now.
The optra magnum will be a good upgrade for you.
And give you that nice big car feel.
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